Is Mark Coyle to blame for losing coaches?

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short ornery norwegian said:
if what I read is accurate, Kirk C was the 8th-highest paid OC in the B1G - before the new contracts kicked in.

on "prior relationships" - if a buddy calls you up and offers you a job for more money, you're going to listen. If the offer includes a lot more money, you're going to listen very closely. as an assistant coach, you would really have to love your current job to turn down an offer to work with a friend for more money.

that is how football works - you hire people you know or have worked with in the past.

and - while I will stipulate the Gophers have improved under Fleck - it's been 6 years and the best season had them finishing as co-champions of the West division - but not playing in the championship game.

maybe - just maybe - some of these assistants think they can do better somewhere else.
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Ah yes, Rutgers. The powerhouse of the east. That’s the part of KC leaving that puzzles me. It’s a destination job to be coordinator there. If schiano fails, they aren’t hiring internally. And Shiano isn’t leaving that job for another. As far as upgrading your coordinator gig, you’re going to have worse athletes by far in over half your games and comparable at best in the rest. The likelihood he’s going to magically make that offense hum is incredibly low with how conservative schiano is, so he’s, to me, just going there to be at Rutgers until schiano is fired or they retire. Weird move
 



I’d place more blame on the board of regents than Coyle. How much we pay coaches isn’t entirely his decision.
 




mngg11 said:
All of these lateral moves are related to previous relationships or destination preferences if we're to believe the facts I've seen put out there.
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I really just think it's not much more than this.

Position coaches moving around is quite common. Coordinators usually stick around for a while, but Sanford and KC are both exceptional cases I think.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Rinse and repeat, but we have every major Professional League in this town at some point the money runs out. We are at a huge disadvantage over other programs.

Fleck is a power coach who trusts himself and culture to outperform any one coach. He will find replacements and likely go younger and continue to lose guys. Again, there is only so much money.
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Your first paragraph is horse shit.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I doubt Coyle sets the budgets.
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CentralGopher said:
I’d place more blame on the board of regents than Coyle. How much we pay coaches isn’t entirely his decision.
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Isn't the coaches pool set as part of Fleck's contract and each extension explicitly spelling out? Or maybe that's just for assistants?

True that I think Coyle has to get permission from "upstairs" for his proposed number, which I assume he works with Fleck on what he wants and probably compares to other Big Ten schools.
 



Gophers_4life said:
Isn't the coaches pool set as part of Fleck's contract and each extension explicitly spelling out? Or maybe that's just for assistants?

True that I think Coyle has to get permission from "upstairs" for his proposed number, which I assume he works with Fleck on what he wants and probably compares to other Big Ten schools.
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Coyle has a vested interest in getting as much money as possible from the powers that be. He improves his stock by the football team doing well (which presumably would be easier to do with more money for the coaches). So he has every single incentive to get as much money as possible for our assistant coaches.

The U is a weird place.
 



upnorthkid said:
Ah yes, Rutgers. The powerhouse of the east. That’s the part of KC leaving that puzzles me. It’s a destination job to be coordinator there. If schiano fails, they aren’t hiring internally. And Shiano isn’t leaving that job for another. As far as upgrading your coordinator gig, you’re going to have worse athletes by far in over half your games and comparable at best in the rest. The likelihood he’s going to magically make that offense hum is incredibly low with how conservative schiano is, so he’s, to me, just going there to be at Rutgers until schiano is fired or they retire. Weird move
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This my thoughts also.

In addition, if Rutgers is going open up the wallet for an OC, why was KC the top choice? Seems they could do better, unless it's all about finding someone "gettable" and willing to got to Rutgers
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
Coyle has a vested interest in getting as much money as possible from the powers that be. He improves his stock by the football team doing well (which presumably would be easier to do with more money for the coaches). So he has every single incentive to get as much money as possible for our assistant coaches.

The U is a weird place.
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Has been since my dad was there in the 60s...
 


Gophers_4life said:
Isn't the coaches pool set as part of Fleck's contract and each extension explicitly spelling out? Or maybe that's just for assistants?

True that I think Coyle has to get permission from "upstairs" for his proposed number, which I assume he works with Fleck on what he wants and probably compares to other Big Ten schools.
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the coordinators have their own contracts with details spelled out. from the Daily Gopher:

In addition to the new seven-year contract signed by P.J. Fleck earlier this week, the University of Minnesota has also inked new contracts with defensive coordinator Joe Rossi and offensive coordinator Kirk Ciarrocca. Both are now signed through the 2025 season.

Rossi’s previously salary was $800,000 and will increase to $1.1 million on Dec. 16, 2022, when the first year of his new contract begins. His salary will increase to $1.15 million the following year, before he earns $1.2 million in the third year of his contract. Rossi now ranks sixth among Big Ten defensive coordinators in salary and the contract is fully guaranteed.

If Rossi terminates his deal, he shall pay a buyout of $330,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 1, $250,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 2, and $150,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 3.

As for Ciarrocca, his previous salary was $625,000 and will increase to $900,000 on Mar. 23, 2023. His salary will then increase to $950,000 the following year, before he earns $1 million in the third year of his contract. Ciarrocca’s salary ranks eighth among Big Ten offensive coordinators and is also fully guaranteed.

If he terminates his deal, he shall pay a buyout of $275,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 1, $200,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 2, and $150,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 3.

The buyout is waived if Ciarrocca leaves for a head coach position at a Division I program.

As part of Fleck’s new contract, Minnesota increased his assistant coaching salary pool by $1 million. With the new contracts signed by Rossi and Ciarrocca, that leaves $425,000 remaining to spread among the position coaches and support staff.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
Coyle has a vested interest in getting as much money as possible from the powers that be. He improves his stock by the football team doing well (which presumably would be easier to do with more money for the coaches). So he has every single incentive to get as much money as possible for our assistant coaches.

The U is a weird place.
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I think Coyle’s job is probably to maximize his department’s bottom line while not embarrassing the school. At some point, spending more money on coaches becomes risky to the bottom line when you are worried you might not get a return on that investment.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
if what I read is accurate, Kirk C was the 8th-highest paid OC in the B1G - before the new contracts kicked in.

on "prior relationships" - if a buddy calls you up and offers you a job for more money, you're going to listen. If the offer includes a lot more money, you're going to listen very closely. as an assistant coach, you would really have to love your current job to turn down an offer to work with a friend for more money.

that is how football works - you hire people you know or have worked with in the past.

and - while I will stipulate the Gophers have improved under Fleck - it's been 6 years and the best season had them finishing as co-champions of the West division - but not playing in the championship game.

maybe - just maybe - some of these assistants think they can do better somewhere else.
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You had me until the bottom one.
The guy going to Purdue is walking into a dumpster fire. Purdue may be a 2-3 win team next year.
The guy going to Rutgers is walking into a situation where schiano probably has 2 years to put up or go away.

If they think they’re going to do better at Purdue or Rutgers I’m happy to be rid of them because they’re idiots
 


short ornery norwegian said:
the coordinators have their own contracts with details spelled out. from the Daily Gopher:

In addition to the new seven-year contract signed by P.J. Fleck earlier this week, the University of Minnesota has also inked new contracts with defensive coordinator Joe Rossi and offensive coordinator Kirk Ciarrocca. Both are now signed through the 2025 season.

Rossi’s previously salary was $800,000 and will increase to $1.1 million on Dec. 16, 2022, when the first year of his new contract begins. His salary will increase to $1.15 million the following year, before he earns $1.2 million in the third year of his contract. Rossi now ranks sixth among Big Ten defensive coordinators in salary and the contract is fully guaranteed.

If Rossi terminates his deal, he shall pay a buyout of $330,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 1, $250,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 2, and $150,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 3.

As for Ciarrocca, his previous salary was $625,000 and will increase to $900,000 on Mar. 23, 2023. His salary will then increase to $950,000 the following year, before he earns $1 million in the third year of his contract. Ciarrocca’s salary ranks eighth among Big Ten offensive coordinators and is also fully guaranteed.

If he terminates his deal, he shall pay a buyout of $275,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 1, $200,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 2, and $150,000 if the notice of termination is given during contract Year 3.

The buyout is waived if Ciarrocca leaves for a head coach position at a Division I program.

As part of Fleck’s new contract, Minnesota increased his assistant coaching salary pool by $1 million. With the new contracts signed by Rossi and Ciarrocca, that leaves $425,000 remaining to spread among the position coaches and support staff.
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OK, just for assistants. Thanks!
 


I suspect the move for KC closer to home is simply part of a two-step process;

Cash in

Check out
 


matt said:
The program has lost three coaches to lateral moves within the conference over the last couple weeks. Geography and prior relationships may have helped enable the moves, but the U didn’t do much to entice them to stay from a salary perspective. It’s reported that Kirk received a $600k pay raise to go to Rutgers. I haven’t seen reports on Haynes’ Wisconsin salary or Haley’s Purdue salary, but they each took a pay cut when they came to Minnesota.

USA Today shows Haynes made $450k at Michigan State in 2019 then made $250k at Minnesota last year (he was in line to make $380k next year). USA Today shows Haley made $609k at Missouri last year and he was in line to make $410k here next year.

I think many of us believe we should be able to compete with schools like Rutgers, Wisconsin, Purdue, Michigan State, and Missouri. However, it appears we either can’t compete with them when it comes to paying assistant coaches or we choose not to.

How much responsibility does Mark Coyle bear for this?
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Well, if the USA Today info is accurate, at least they actually did take a payout to come here...
 

matt said:
Do you think this is the convo between PJ and Coyle or Coyle and Gabel?

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This is probably a more appropriate Moneyball quote for us. Or maybe it's more apropos for the basketball program during the last 25 years.

 

The title of this post is very ambiguous.
Did you mean Coyle chooses coaches who LOSE games or Coyle makes Coaches LEAVE?
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
I suspect the move for KC closer to home is simply part of a two-step process;

Cash in

Check out
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If someone offered me $1.5M a year to stand at the wheel of a sinking cargo ship, I'd be like "hell yes I'll steer this thing into the bottom of the ocean, and jump off on a lifeboat as it's going down".
 

Plato said:
The title of this post is very ambiguous.
Did you mean Coyle chooses coaches who LOSE games or Coyle makes Coaches LEAVE?
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I think he was saying Coyle doesn't get enough money to keep the coaches?
 

howeda7 said:
PJ is paid competitively. Losing staff for salary reasons is illogical. If you can afford to pay the head coach $4-5 million, you shouldn't lose assistants over $500K.
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For a majority, that's a 50% or better increase.
 

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