Inability of D to get off the field on 3rd down...

[NewEngland_Gold]

is it mismatched personnel, poor coaching, poor schemes and/or lack of execution?

Not knowing, perhaps someone else here does.

 

[frozengopher]

This is all garbage opinion, but I have to throw it out somewhere

It starts with T.O.P. Offense can't drive/convert third downs themselves, resulting in the defense on the field a lot. Defense gets tired, and it gives up yards/scores. It would seem easy to rack up a good third down pct. against a defense when it's sucking wind the entire game. I think we need results on offense to improve this, but then again, did the chicken or egg come first?

I think our corners are soft. We suck at getting pressure from the line as well.

We've seen a few games where the d adjusted at the half and got more competitive. We've also seen games where we didn't adjust at all.

I do not know enough about schemes or execution to make any attempt at a valid point.

We certainly don't seem to have the turnovers that we did last year. I believe our takeaway margin at the first half of the season last year was the prime indicator of our success.

 

[monk10]

My best guess is that the other team's O knows we have limited ability to get pressure. I think they have no problem drawing up long developing routes that puts pressure on our zone defenses, where the man in a zone has to choose who to cover which leaves the other guy open. However, it is just a guess.

 

[UST82Gopher]

What I have seen is 2 strategies.

One, and the most successful, has been the all out blitz with man to man coverage. We have typically put good pressure and forced the QB into making a tough play. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it does not.

The 2nd is a zone defense where we get 3 linebackers and at least 1 corner spread out just a yard or so in front of the 1st down line. In my opinion, this is the defense that is killing us. I have seen countless throws in front of our linebacker who makes the tackle only to have the receiver stretch out as he goes down an gets the 1st down. Happened 5 times against Penn State. A few times, we played the linebackers up 3 yards off, only to have a safeties stay back!! That left a huge gap which Penn State exploited with crossing routes.

The blitz strategy can stay in the book. But the zone strategy has to change. We need to move the linebacker up to 3 yds from the 1st down marker and move the safeties up too. Yeah, we might get beat deep once and a while. But I will take that over the 50%+ 3rd down conversion rate we currently have.

 

[tpbeight]

I agree with the passive zone. The opposing OC knows what our 3rd down strategy is 85% of the time: Stand back in zone, keep everything in front of us and hope the other team makes a mistake. It's too easy to get the 4-7yrds needed with that look. I don't think any 1 strategy is perfect, but a greater mix would sure be nice. I'd like to see more man-to-man coverage, a few more zone blitzes.......something that keeps the other OC guessing. We're making it too easy to call plays.

 

[monk10]

It starts with T.O.P. Offense can't drive/convert third downs themselves, resulting in the defense on the field a lot. Defense gets tired, and it gives up yards/scores. It would seem easy to rack up a good third down pct. against a defense when it's sucking wind the entire game. I think we need results on offense to improve this, but then again, did the chicken or egg come first?

I can understand this if our 3rd down completion % gets worse as the game goes on. However it is pretty bad starting in the first quarter. Unless you are saying that the defense shouldn't be on the field more then once in the first quarter . However this our defense is getting tired is starting to take a life of its own like Webber can't read a defense legendary posting topic.

 

[UpnorthGo4]

If Glenn Mason had defenses as good as the one the Gophers have now, his Big 10 record would be a lot better than 32 - 48, he would have gone to more than one New Years Day bowl game, and he would still be the Gopher's coach.

 

[Hates Monikers]

If Glenn Mason had defenses as good as the one the Gophers have now, his Big 10 record would be a lot better than 32 - 48, he would have gone to more than one New Years Day bowl game, and he would still be the Gopher's coach.

I agree completely, despite all the statistics other posters have displayed over the past few days showing the ineptitude of our defense.

Almost all of those lousy stats can be traced to poor third-down efficiency. And I think most of it is due to our pass rush, or lack thereof. I would rather have our defense face third-and-three than third-and-ten. The QB stands back there all day, and eventually someone gets open. Zone, man-to-man, doesn't really matter if you can't pressure the quarterback. I think we have no choice but to blitz. We may give up a big play now and then, but what we're doing now isn't working, either.

 

[wait!what?]

While not great the D has been ok. Kept them in the game last Sat.

 

[frozengopher]

However this our defense is getting tired is starting to take a life of its own like Webber can't read a defense legendary posting topic.

Doesn't time of possession speak volumes about this, though?

Weber's ability to read a defense cannot be inferred through any reasonable statistic. We don't know what our playbook is like, most people on here don't know how difficult it really is to read a 1-A defense, and reading a defense and then running a play is dependant on a lot of little things coming together among a group of players. We can, however, reasonably put ourselves in the shoes of the defense, who primarily have to run fast and hit hard. (Among other, more important things like coverage, but I have a point to this.)

Most people have played sports. When was the last time you repeatedly used your fast twitch muscle fibers at full gear with little rest in between spurts over a 40 minute span (Think T.O.P)? It sucks. You get dog tired, no matter how great of shape you're in. Compound that with putting all of your muscle into a hit.

I think it is a decent to legitimate argument to say fatigue is a primary factor.

 

[Mulligan]

I also think the main problem is a really poor pass rush. Saturday was really frustrating to watch. There was no pressure from the outside; we'd get engaged with their offensive linemen and simply try to push them back into the quarterback. I kept waiting for somebody to come around the corner or to shed a blocker and make the quarterback move, but it never happened. Another problem was pretty poor tackling; I think the worst of the year as far as angles and bringing the ball carrier down. I know Clay steamrolled us the second half, but that's more excusable than the tackling Saturday.

 

[monk10]

frozen I am unable to find a site that breaks down our opponents third down conversion percentage by quarter.

If your assumptions are true it would be ovious that our 4th quarter 3rd down conversion percentage would be drastically worse then our first quarters.

My sample size is limited right now. But we made PSU punt one time in the first two quarters of the game on Saturday.

They had drives that looked like this:
First Quarter
@MINN 38 (Punt - defense showed up after an offensive turnover 3 and out)
@PSU 38 (FG - 5 plays on defense 1 first down stopped 'em on 3rd down)
@PSU 20 (FG - 12 plays on defense PSU 4 first downs was 2 for 3 on 3rd down)
Summary PSU 2 for 5 on 3rd down - 40% clip

Second Quarter
@PSU 29 (missed FG - 2 First downs 1 for 2 on 3rd down)
@PSU 9 (TD - 4 first downs 2 for 2 on 3rd down)
3 for 4 on 3rd down - 75% clip.

Are we already tired in the middle of the second quarter?

 

[WAGopher]

I don't like that when we line up in tight man to man coverage, the corners don't touch the receiver. They should at least give them a bump, and at best ride them a bit and do what they can to disrupt the route and timing. Of course, they have to be careful so the receiver doesn't blow by them, but some attempt has to be made to give us the advantage. As an example, on 3rd and long against PSU, Simmons was up on the right side of the line just across from the man he's covering, then didn't impede the receiver, and gave up the first down catch. I can't believe we're so un-athletic that our guys are not being coached to be aggressive.

 

[Schnoodler]

It is a bend don't break strategy. It isn't my favorite, it never looks good. But really for as much time as Penn had the ball 20 points is pretty good. Hell, I'll take 20 against any decent opponent. We need to score too.

 

[gopheraschells]

i really didnt think the D was THAT bad saturday, i mean they only gave up 20 points when penn state had the ball 3/4 the time. Think if we could have sustained an offensive drive and god forbid score a touchdown. if we could have held onto the ball longer that would have taken points off the boar for penn state then i think we would be looking at a 17-7 game or something similar

 

[Gopherholefan]

frozen I am unable to find a site that breaks down our opponents third down conversion percentage by quarter.

If your assumptions are true it would be ovious that our 4th quarter 3rd down conversion percentage would be drastically worse then our first quarters.

My sample size is limited right now. But we made PSU punt one time in the first two quarters of the game on Saturday.

They had drives that looked like this:
First Quarter
@MINN 38 (Punt - defense showed up after an offensive turnover 3 and out)
@PSU 38 (FG - 5 plays on defense 1 first down stopped 'em on 3rd down)
@PSU 20 (FG - 12 plays on defense PSU 4 first downs was 2 for 3 on 3rd down)
Summary PSU 2 for 5 on 3rd down - 40% clip

Second Quarter
@PSU 29 (missed FG - 2 First downs 1 for 2 on 3rd down)
@PSU 9 (TD - 4 first downs 2 for 2 on 3rd down)
3 for 4 on 3rd down - 75% clip.

Are we already tired in the middle of the second quarter?

The answer is yes when you are on the field 21 of the 30 minutes played....

 

[GophersInIowa]

I also think the main problem is a really poor pass rush. Saturday was really frustrating to watch. There was no pressure from the outside; we'd get engaged with their offensive linemen and simply try to push them back into the quarterback. I kept waiting for somebody to come around the corner or to shed a blocker and make the quarterback move, but it never happened. Another problem was pretty poor tackling; I think the worst of the year as far as angles and bringing the ball carrier down. I know Clay steamrolled us the second half, but that's more excusable than the tackling Saturday.

I agree completely. Clark sat back there all day and picked the secondary apart. Hardly any pressure at all. If you can't get any pressure on the QB, they're going to complete a lot of passes, no matter how good your secondary and LBs are. They can't cover all day long.

 

[Firejumper]

The best defense is a good offense. If you are on the field the whole game, given that defensive intensity is an emotional thing, you can't help but become a bit disheartened, and loose your mental edge.

 

[nc2mn]

Hard to believe

This thread has gone on this long without a "fire Cosgrove" post (unless I missed it).

I agree that the soft zone has a lot to do with the problem, but not sure how to fix it - I'll leave it to the better minds here.

 

[Schnoodler]

This thread has gone on this long without a "fire Cosgrove" post (unless I missed it).

I agree that the soft zone has a lot to do with the problem, but not sure how to fix it - I'll leave it to the better minds here.

Brewster did address this a little on his last show. He basically said when we can get more QB pressure we can be more aggressive with the DB's. This is huge paraphrasing, but it's too long ago now for my brain to remember the quote.

 

[parkinglotgopher]

This thread has gone on this long without a "fire Cosgrove" post (unless I missed it).

This actually surprised me too, considering the soft zone and big cushions on the edges that people are noting as a possible problem is among the negatives cited by Coach Cosgrove's critics in past jobs.

As others have said though, your DBs start to look a lot better (and can take a few more risks) when they only need to cover for a few seconds before the pressure on the QB disrupts the play. A great pass rush has a way of covering up many other weaknesses (be they talent or scheme) in a defense.

 

[monk10]

For the last two games I have seen some pressure man and some cover 2. I think they are trying to disguise the coverages the best they can unfortunately most QB's can just wait to see what opens up.

I'd have to look at the tape, but it looks like they do some pressure man on one side with safety help, or a half cover two look. And the other side is the 10-12 yard cushion man/zone look. After being able to find some thinks to watch during the game like this while at the stadium, I forgot how much it sucks to watch it at home with the camera zoomed in on the QB.

 

[josh087]

If you watch as closely as I do you will notice the three top defenses in the B10 (Iowa, OSU, PSU) rarely blitz on 3rd down and play a 2-deep zone defense - exactly like the one everyone is complaining about with Cosgrove.

The difference? The front 4 is getting pressure. That's it.

I actually applaud cosgrove for trying to blitz as much as he has on third down. That alone has convinced me he knows what he is doing as this is our only chance to get off the field.

If you're watching the game tonight Denver is winning this game with their defensive line.

DL, DL, DL - the key to football.

 

[nemosgold]

If you watch as closely as I do you will notice the three top defenses in the B10 (Iowa, OSU, PSU) rarely blitz on 3rd down and play a 2-deep zone defense - exactly like the one everyone is complaining about with Cosgrove.

The difference? The front 4 is getting pressure. That's it.

I actually applaud cosgrove for trying to blitz as much as he has on third down. That alone has convinced me he knows what he is doing as this is our only chance to get off the field.

If you're watching the game tonight Denver is winning this game with their defensive line.

DL, DL, DL - the key to football.

Kind of agree with you, the other exception is those teams also have a corner (not both) who can be a shut down on the other teams #2 receiver. Which lets them play some man with saftey help over the top. We give the QB too much time for the WR's to find space in our zones.

A good OL also helps us keep our average DL off the field.

 

[frozengopher]

frozen I am unable to find a site that breaks down our opponents third down conversion percentage by quarter.

If your assumptions are true it would be ovious that our 4th quarter 3rd down conversion percentage would be drastically worse then our first quarters.

My sample size is limited right now. But we made PSU punt one time in the first two quarters of the game on Saturday.

They had drives that looked like this:
First Quarter
@MINN 38 (Punt - defense showed up after an offensive turnover 3 and out)
@PSU 38 (FG - 5 plays on defense 1 first down stopped 'em on 3rd down)
@PSU 20 (FG - 12 plays on defense PSU 4 first downs was 2 for 3 on 3rd down)
Summary PSU 2 for 5 on 3rd down - 40% clip

Second Quarter
@PSU 29 (missed FG - 2 First downs 1 for 2 on 3rd down)
@PSU 9 (TD - 4 first downs 2 for 2 on 3rd down)
3 for 4 on 3rd down - 75% clip.

Are we already tired in the middle of the second quarter?

Going off what Gopherholefan said, I would think going in fifth gear for 21 of 30 minutes trying to get to the ball could be a legitimate argument that the defense is tired. Not saying it's right, but reasonably legitimate. I can understand what you're getting at though, and I respect that. If we can equalize T.O.P. and we still suck on third down, there's obviously something else going on. For now, we can't really know for sure.

 

[calminnfan]

man where have I read this before???

 

[littlebigboy]

I am definiately not a Cosgrove man as a D coord. but he is a good position coach. Give the Coord. job to Lee and let cosgrove coach his LBs. The cushions have to be Cosgrove, because the secondary played alot tougher last yr. Most of the time.

 

[cncmin]

In this case it's Cosgrove's fault.

What I have seen is 2 strategies.

One, and the most successful, has been the all out blitz with man to man coverage. We have typically put good pressure and forced the QB into making a tough play. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it does not.

The 2nd is a zone defense where we get 3 linebackers and at least 1 corner spread out just a yard or so in front of the 1st down line. In my opinion, this is the defense that is killing us. I have seen countless throws in front of our linebacker who makes the tackle only to have the receiver stretch out as he goes down an gets the 1st down. Happened 5 times against Penn State. A few times, we played the linebackers up 3 yards off, only to have a safeties stay back!! That left a huge gap which Penn State exploited with crossing routes.

The blitz strategy can stay in the book. But the zone strategy has to change. We need to move the linebacker up to 3 yds from the 1st down marker and move the safeties up too. Yeah, we might get beat deep once and a while. But I will take that over the 50%+ 3rd down conversion rate we currently have.

This is pretty much my take of the 3rd-down situation too. We play a very passive zone on most 3rd-and-long plays, and it's killing us. The opposing receivers easily have enough time to find the open holes, and the opposing QB has enough time to find those receivers in the open holes. It's similar to prevent defense - it only prevents the defense from getting off the field.

If we are correct, then it's the play-calling that is beating us. Perhaps Cosgrove should think of something BETTER to do on 3rd down.

 

[cncmin]

Brewster did address this a little on his last show. He basically said when we can get more QB pressure we can be more aggressive with the DB's. This is huge paraphrasing, but it's too long ago now for my brain to remember the quote.

Actually, hitting the receivers up front prevents quick passes and, theoretically, allows more time for the DL to rush the QB. We are doing a great disservice to our defense by not bumping the receivers at least a fair portion of the time. It's just baffling that we don't.

 

[Schnoodler]

Actually, hitting the receivers up front prevents quick passes and, theoretically, allows more time for the DL to rush the QB. We are doing a great disservice to our defense by not bumping the receivers at least a fair portion of the time. It's just baffling that we don't.

just passing what i heard, but seriously you think our line rush is adequate? if i've gotta pick one i'd say we're not pressuring the qb enough.