Importance of Shooting Touch

Bordergopher

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My first post here. I would love to hear some discussion about the importance of shooting touch.

First my thoughts: In general, shooting ability is a learned skill, and thus is teachable. However, like many things, it is best learned at a young age. It seems to me that most highly skilled shooters developed this skill when they were young (school age), and thus it is difficult (but not impossible) to fix a bad shooter. I am a good example. I am not very athletic, but I learned to shoot as a kid. I never played organized basketball. As an middle-aged guy, I can still walk into a gym and beat most athletic young guys in a game of horse, and out-shoot them in a free-throw contest. I don't understand why many of them can't shoot better. It baffles me.

Now my main question: If you had to choose between a guy that is a great shooter, but not athletic or a guy that is very athletic, but an average to poor shooter, what would you choose? In the world of Division I basketball, it seems that only the elite tier of schools have their choice of guys that combine great athleticism and great shooting skills. They are the five star and perhaps high four-star recruits. Minnesota rarely gets them. Instead, we get good players who usually have at least one fairly obvious deficiency. It seems to me that Tubby prefers to forego the shooting skill in favor of athleticism. I suppose the idea is that you can teach the good athlete to shoot, but you can't really teach athleticism. Bo Ryan prefers the ability to shoot. The difference between the teams is pretty glaring. We get the highlight-reel dunks, fabulous shot-blocks, and electrifying fast breaks. We also get a lot of clunk when we shoot a jumpshot (unless it is Blake shooting). With Bo's teams, they get a lot of swoosh when they shoot jumpshots and free throws, but not much of the rest. Am I far off on this?

My conclusion is that ultimately, you have to be able to put the ball in the hole. All the great leaping, darting, blocking, slamming is great, and certainly counts for something. The athleticism is a great benefit on defense. However, if you can't put the ball in the hole when it counts because you don't have any shooting touch, in the end you won't win most of the time. Although I love to watch Rodney screaming down the court and flying over Goldy's head, or Trevor jumping over Tubby's motorcycle (Tubby's Tipoff) as much as anyone, I would prefer some guys that can flat out shoot the ball. That skill seems to cover up more deficiencies than the other way around. It also seems to me that the one constant to Bobby Knight's teams of yesteryear is that those guys could flat out shoot the ball. I'm excited about Andre Hollins, because it sounds like he is a shooter. Your thoughts? Thanks for the chance to write my first post, and I hope I wasn't too wordy.
 

great first post, good thoughts.

the game has changed over the last 10 years. you have to have shooters. plain and simple. they need to be able to get off their shot thought but if you aren't able to shoot the 3 then you aren't going to advance deep.
 

Bucky

As much as Bucky bugs me I admire the fact that they are a team that can MAKE free throws!
 

My first post here. I would love to hear some discussion about the importance of shooting touch.

First my thoughts: In general, shooting ability is a learned skill, and thus is teachable. However, like many things, it is best learned at a young age. It seems to me that most highly skilled shooters developed this skill when they were young (school age), and thus it is difficult (but not impossible) to fix a bad shooter. I am a good example. I am not very athletic, but I learned to shoot as a kid. I never played organized basketball. As an middle-aged guy, I can still walk into a gym and beat most athletic young guys in a game of horse, and out-shoot them in a free-throw contest. I don't understand why many of them can't shoot better. It baffles me.

Now my main question: If you had to choose between a guy that is a great shooter, but not athletic or a guy that is very athletic, but an average to poor shooter, what would you choose? In the world of Division I basketball, it seems that only the elite tier of schools have their choice of guys that combine great athleticism and great shooting skills. They are the five star and perhaps high four-star recruits. Minnesota rarely gets them. Instead, we get good players who usually have at least one fairly obvious deficiency. It seems to me that Tubby prefers to forego the shooting skill in favor of athleticism. I suppose the idea is that you can teach the good athlete to shoot, but you can't really teach athleticism. Bo Ryan prefers the ability to shoot. The difference between the teams is pretty glaring. We get the highlight-reel dunks, fabulous shot-blocks, and electrifying fast breaks. We also get a lot of clunk when we shoot a jumpshot (unless it is Blake shooting). With Bo's teams, they get a lot of swoosh when they shoot jumpshots and free throws, but not much of the rest. Am I far off on this?

My conclusion is that ultimately, you have to be able to put the ball in the hole. All the great leaping, darting, blocking, slamming is great, and certainly counts for something. The athleticism is a great benefit on defense. However, if you can't put the ball in the hole when it counts because you don't have any shooting touch, in the end you won't win most of the time. Although I love to watch Rodney screaming down the court and flying over Goldy's head, or Trevor jumping over Tubby's motorcycle (Tubby's Tipoff) as much as anyone, I would prefer some guys that can flat out shoot the ball. That skill seems to cover up more deficiencies than the other way around. It also seems to me that the one constant to Bobby Knight's teams of yesteryear is that those guys could flat out shoot the ball. I'm excited about Andre Hollins, because it sounds like he is a shooter. Your thoughts? Thanks for the chance to write my first post, and I hope I wasn't too wordy.

Good stuff. The group of inside players Tubby has built would be devastating to opponents if he had a bunch of good shooters around them.
 

Yeah, used to be a time when a dominant center could win games...not anymore. Guards win games in the last 3 minutes...we've seen it all year...when the game is on the line with under 5 to play...our depleted guard line up gets out played by good teams...when we had the guard play, we won...when we didn't...we lost and keep losing.

Shooting from 3, making your own shot, penetration and pass or finish, handling the ball against the press...bigs don't really make an impact on any of this...its a gaurds game and we 3 Fr and 1 Sr guard on our team right now...not gonna win a lot of big ten games with that line up.
 


This was a really really good first post. Couldn't agree with you more. As much as I love Rodney for his athleticism and highlight dunks, I would take a less athletic but skilled scorer/shooter with good touch anyday (i.e. Blake). There are tons of guys that I trust will be able to make a dunk or a nice block, but beyond Ralph or Blake, there is no one on this year's team that I trust shooting outside of 8 feet. Really hope Andre can bring this next year as well.
 

I just wish we had some "in between" guys. Either the guys are athletic but couldn't shoot a 15-footer if their life depended on it (al, rodney), can score only in the paint with limited success but not beyond (colt, trevor), or can shoot from the outside and that's just about it (blake).

Ralph is the only guy with a touch of versatility to his game, but due to the lack of roster flexibility he has to play on the floor at the same time as trevor and/or colt, essentially reducing his impact to the perimeter, where his skills don't equate to a SG or a SF.

The Gophers are just a team with some decently skilled individual guys that, unfortunately, could not blend together any worse in terms of skill set as a team.
 

Tubby's Best Teams Have Been Good Shooters

His two best teams at UK were 2003 (32-4 undefeated SEC #1 ranked and 48.8% FG) and 1998 (35-4 NCAA champions and 48.2% FG). The 98 team was tied with 2001 at 48.2% FG for 2nd best.
 

His two best teams at UK were 2003 (32-4 undefeated SEC #1 ranked and 48.8% FG) and 1998 (35-4 NCAA champions and 48.2% FG). The 98 team was tied with 2001 at 48.2% FG for 2nd best.

I didn't realize that great teams usually have high FG percentages. Thanks for your contribution!
 



I just wish we had some "in between" guys. Either the guys are athletic but couldn't shoot a 15-footer if their life depended on it (al, rodney), can score only in the paint with limited success but not beyond (colt, trevor), or can shoot from the outside and that's just about it (blake).

Ralph is the only guy with a touch of versatility to his game, but due to the lack of roster flexibility he has to play on the floor at the same time as trevor and/or colt, essentially reducing his impact to the perimeter, where his skills don't equate to a SG or a SF.

The Gophers are just a team with some decently skilled individual guys that, unfortunately, could not blend together any worse in terms of skill set as a team.

I think there are combinations you could put together. You could play Rodney at the 4 with Trevor and then go with Hollins, Chip and Hoff for a quick lineup that can score. Or you can go with Ralph up high Iverson low and Rodney,Hollins, Mav. The worst of all possible worlds is the big slow lineup that can't shoot or drive. The defense sags, puts one guy on Hoff and were are toast. It worked in the Iowa game but Iowa stinks and just happened to stink even worse in that game. Couldn't hit a shot.
 

I didn't realize that great teams usually have high FG percentages. Thanks for your contribution!

Prepare yourself for stats on former bricklaying Tubby teams that won big.
 


Prepare yourself for stats on former bricklaying Tubby teams that won big.

Nope, just the opposite. His 2000 UK team was the worst FG shooting team in 10 years. They were 23-10.

His 2002 UK team was also poor shooting squad. 22-10.

Finally the 2006 UK team was also a weak shooting bunch. 22-13.
 



FOT - I'm not surprised that Tubby had good shooting teams at Kentucky. I would just like to see that happen here. Here is my very amateur assessment of our player's jump-shooting skills (I don't count a dunk as a jump shot!):

Blake: Great shooter
Austin: Average shooter (jury still out due to being freshman, and not getting a lot of reps in game situations)
Chip: Poor shooter (has shown signs already of improvement, but a lot of work needed)
Mav: Good shooter (Very limited body of work, but he seems to have a nice touch. Should be shooting more?)
Rodney: Poor shooter (also showing signs of improvement, but a LOT of work needed)
Al: Poor shooter
Trevor: Poor shooter (showing signs of improvement, though)
Ralph: Good shooter (too bad his post moves aren't at the same level)
Colton: Poor shooter (I don't understand how he has digressed in his little jump hook from five feet. When did he last make one?)
Mo: Good shooter (VERY limited body of work, but seems to have a nice touch.
Eliott: No idea (His post moves looked better than Ralph or Colton's
Oto: No idea (Word is he is a good shooter, but we haven't seen that yet)
Halvorsen: No idea (Anyone?)
Dawson: No idea

Of the 10 I have attempted to assess, 1 is great, 3 are good, 1 is average, and 5 are poor. Of the 3 good, 2 are post players. Ouch! Is it a surprise we have trouble scoring in the last 3 minutes of a game?
 

Definitely need more shooters on the team. And not only just shooters, but you need guys who are just pure shot makers, meaning, they can find pick their way around the court and find a place to get a bucket. Don't necessarily need to get a good pick or whatever, they can just create for themselves. This has been missing the entire Tubby era. I think Chip has a little of that in him, but needs a lot of refining. Here's to hoping Andre Hollins and Joe Coleman can do what they have done on the high school level at the B1G level as well....
 

Nope, just the opposite. His 2000 UK team was the worst FG shooting team in 10 years. They were 23-10.

His 2002 UK team was also poor shooting squad. 22-10.

Finally the 2006 UK team was also a weak shooting bunch. 22-13.

AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

You do realize there is a difference between good shooters and high FG percentage, right? For example, Blake is a great shooter but Trevor is going to have a higher shooting percentage this season due to his shot selection. Generally the higher shooting the team, the more dunks and layups they are getting - not necessarily that they are great shooters.

I'm looking forward to another 8,000 posts from you containing meaningless, misleading, and non-sequitur-esque statistics.

There. Just had to get that off my chest. The FOT stats seem to have been ramped up to an even more illogical level in the last two weeks, and it has been slowly bothering me.
 

I think there are combinations you could put together. You could play Rodney at the 4 with Trevor and then go with Hollins, Chip and Hoff for a quick lineup that can score. Or you can go with Ralph up high Iverson low and Rodney,Hollins, Mav. The worst of all possible worlds is the big slow lineup that can't shoot or drive. The defense sags, puts one guy on Hoff and were are toast. It worked in the Iowa game but Iowa stinks and just happened to stink even worse in that game. Couldn't hit a shot.

Agree One Million Percent. The "Big" lineup will only work against either a mid-major or a BT team playing its crappiest game of the season (and even that didn't work against MSU). It must change, regardless of how much Tubby fears the potential drop in interior D.
 

I didn't see him alot, but i wasn't that impressed with Jordan Taylor's shooting in high school. He wasn't bad but I didn't think he was a great shooter by any means. Different story now though.
 

My first post here. I would love to hear some discussion about the importance of shooting touch.

First my thoughts: In general, shooting ability is a learned skill, and thus is teachable. However, like many things, it is best learned at a young age. It seems to me that most highly skilled shooters developed this skill when they were young (school age), and thus it is difficult (but not impossible) to fix a bad shooter. I am a good example. I am not very athletic, but I learned to shoot as a kid. I never played organized basketball. As an middle-aged guy, I can still walk into a gym and beat most athletic young guys in a game of horse, and out-shoot them in a free-throw contest. I don't understand why many of them can't shoot better. It baffles me.

Now my main question: If you had to choose between a guy that is a great shooter, but not athletic or a guy that is very athletic, but an average to poor shooter, what would you choose? In the world of Division I basketball, it seems that only the elite tier of schools have their choice of guys that combine great athleticism and great shooting skills. They are the five star and perhaps high four-star recruits. Minnesota rarely gets them. Instead, we get good players who usually have at least one fairly obvious deficiency. It seems to me that Tubby prefers to forego the shooting skill in favor of athleticism. I suppose the idea is that you can teach the good athlete to shoot, but you can't really teach athleticism. Bo Ryan prefers the ability to shoot. The difference between the teams is pretty glaring. We get the highlight-reel dunks, fabulous shot-blocks, and electrifying fast breaks. We also get a lot of clunk when we shoot a jumpshot (unless it is Blake shooting). With Bo's teams, they get a lot of swoosh when they shoot jumpshots and free throws, but not much of the rest. Am I far off on this?

My conclusion is that ultimately, you have to be able to put the ball in the hole. All the great leaping, darting, blocking, slamming is great, and certainly counts for something. The athleticism is a great benefit on defense. However, if you can't put the ball in the hole when it counts because you don't have any shooting touch, in the end you won't win most of the time. Although I love to watch Rodney screaming down the court and flying over Goldy's head, or Trevor jumping over Tubby's motorcycle (Tubby's Tipoff) as much as anyone, I would prefer some guys that can flat out shoot the ball. That skill seems to cover up more deficiencies than the other way around. It also seems to me that the one constant to Bobby Knight's teams of yesteryear is that those guys could flat out shoot the ball. I'm excited about Andre Hollins, because it sounds like he is a shooter. Your thoughts? Thanks for the chance to write my first post, and I hope I wasn't too wordy.


the first thought of your first post is incorrect!

shooting form can be taught... touch cannot.

blake has good, not great form.. but freakish touch.
rodney actually has better form.. but lacks great touch.
shaq has no touch.. good form.
 

FOT - I'm not surprised that Tubby had good shooting teams at Kentucky. I would just like to see that happen here. Here is my very amateur assessment of our player's jump-shooting skills (I don't count a dunk as a jump shot!):

Blake: Great shooter
Austin: Average shooter (jury still out due to being freshman, and not getting a lot of reps in game situations)
Chip: Poor shooter (has shown signs already of improvement, but a lot of work needed)
Mav: Good shooter (Very limited body of work, but he seems to have a nice touch. Should be shooting more?)
Rodney: Poor shooter (also showing signs of improvement, but a LOT of work needed)
Al: Poor shooter
Trevor: Poor shooter (showing signs of improvement, though)
Ralph: Good shooter (too bad his post moves aren't at the same level)
Colton: Poor shooter (I don't understand how he has digressed in his little jump hook from five feet. When did he last make one?)
Mo: Good shooter (VERY limited body of work, but seems to have a nice touch.
Eliott: No idea (His post moves looked better than Ralph or Colton's
Oto: No idea (Word is he is a good shooter, but we haven't seen that yet)
Halvorsen: No idea (Anyone?)
Dawson: No idea

Of the 10 I have attempted to assess, 1 is great, 3 are good, 1 is average, and 5 are poor. Of the 3 good, 2 are post players. Ouch! Is it a surprise we have trouble scoring in the last 3 minutes of a game?

At UK (Tulsa and Georgia too) he had good AND bad shooting teams.
 

AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

You do realize there is a difference between good shooters and high FG percentage, right? For example, Blake is a great shooter but Trevor is going to have a higher shooting percentage this season due to his shot selection. Generally the higher shooting the team, the more dunks and layups they are getting - not necessarily that they are great shooters.

I'm looking forward to another 8,000 posts from you containing meaningless, misleading, and non-sequitur-esque statistics.

There. Just had to get that off my chest. The FOT stats seem to have been ramped up to an even more illogical level in the last two weeks, and it has been slowly bothering me.

Looks like your IQ dropped back down. BDM.
 

It takes many skills to make a complete player. But, for my money, if they can't shoot, they can't play.
 

Great post! I agree for the most part with all of it!

You need a combination of the two. I definitely would recruit mostly fundamentally sound basketball players: guys who are good shooters, ball-handlers, have good court vision and play hard. I don't care what level of athlete they are - I want good basketball players.

I would specifically recruit smaller strong point guards who are incredibly quick, great ball handlers and excellent defensively. I am less concerned with outside shooting ability from my point - I want them to break down defenses and make others better. If they can perfect a finish, a pull up jumper or a 3 point shot: it is gravy...

Now, you need to mix in a few freak athletes as finishers to make this work - especially bigs (Mbakwe). If you have a team of less-athletic fundamentally sound players - it makes life easier for non-shooters as they will get easier looks. Guys Rodney Williams could thrive on a team like this w/o a servicable jumper...

My two cents anyway...
 

For example, we all know how important Al Nolen is to this team. But, what would you rather have: a point guard like Al who can also shoot or a point guard like Al?
 


For example, we all know how important Al Nolen is to this team. But, what would you rather have: a point guard like Al who can also shoot or a point guard like Al?

Al's great, but it's really good to have your point guard be able to knock down outside shots. We were incredibly tough in games where Nolen made even a few outside shots. The point guard has a great chance to be a threat late in the shot clock. Even Tubby last year claimed (when Joseph started to roll) that Nolen's inability to make outside shots had been hurting the Gophs and that defenses had been making us play 4 on 5. I like a PG that has the mentality where they don't care how much they score- but they are able to go off for 20 if left open. K. Lucas and J. Taylor are real good examples- T. Battle is a little more shot first maybe by necessity.
 

Black Divorced Male?

Barn Door Mafia?

Binary Delta Modulation?

Black Dahlia Murder?

Back Door Man?

Biosecurity Disaster Management?

Like usual, the man makes no sense. He defends Tubby with repetitive (at best) or irrelevant and misleading statistics. Then when you call him out on his flaws, he hits you with a third-grader insult. To make matters worse, he has nearly 8,000 posts of the same repetitive stuff, defending a coach who most everybody likes but will occasionally question a decision (talk about thin skin). It just continues to frustrate me, even more so lately.

The nicest thing I can say about him is that I like his passion for basketball. I'll leave it at that.
 

shooting touch

I can not disagree more with the notion that shooting ability can be taught w/o a natural shooting "touch" I have NEVER seen ( in over 20 years of observing basketball) a bad shooter become a good shooter through improvements in technique. Austin Hollins, Rodney Williams, virtually the entire gopher lineup, lack a shooting touch and will continue to throw up bricks regardless of who we bring in to work on shooting technique. In my view, the great mistake Tubby has made in the last 2 years is to recruit kids w/o touch that may be more advanced defensively. DEFENSE CAN be coached, not shooting. Many of the greatest shooters of all time have had terrible technique. You are kidding yourselves if you think through more shooting practice and a few tweaks to their shooting motions the crew we currently have will come out next year and light it up. THEY WON'T!!
 

I can not disagree more with the notion that shooting ability can be taught w/o a natural shooting "touch" I have NEVER seen ( in over 20 years of observing basketball) a bad shooter become a good shooter through improvements in technique. Austin Hollins, Rodney Williams, virtually the entire gopher lineup, lack a shooting touch and will continue to throw up bricks regardless of who we bring in to work on shooting technique. In my view, the great mistake Tubby has made in the last 2 years is to recruit kids w/o touch that may be more advanced defensively. DEFENSE CAN be coached, not shooting. Many of the greatest shooters of all time have had terrible technique. You are kidding yourselves if you think through more shooting practice and a few tweaks to their shooting motions the crew we currently have will come out next year and light it up. THEY WON'T!!

This! We will not be seeing Rodney or Austin become consistent shooters from outside of ten feet.
 




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