Illinois' Shannon charged with Rape

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Bob_Loblaw said:
I'm sure he's making a due process argument and that protects against more than just rights. I don't think he wins but the due process clause protects from government takings of liberty and property as well.

It does beg an interesting question, what kind of process, if any, is due (appropriate) for a government entity to remove a player from a team?
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4. Can an employer terminate me without advance notice or without giving a reason or an unfair reason for the termination?​


Yes. Illinois is an "employment at-will" state, meaning that an employer or employee may terminate the relationship at any time, without any reason or cause. The employer, however, cannot discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, ancestry, citizenship status, age, marital status, physical or mental handicap, military service or unfavorable military discharge. If you wish to locate additional information, visit the Illinois Department of Human Rights.

FAQs

The Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) provided below highlight topics and specific questions that are often asked of the Illinois Department of Labor (IDOL). The information provided in the FAQs is intended to enhance public access and understanding
labor.illinois.gov labor.illinois.gov
 

alchemy2u said:
Well, maybe you should do some research! But you already have strong opinions that you would hate to lose by doing some research.
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Ok I looked into it a little.

The alleged incident happened in the span of less than a minute in a crowded bar. The accuser's companion at the bar didn't even realize anything happened until told about it later. The accuser is seen on camera approaching Shannon. Shannon says he's innocent.

That's all I saw about it. Do you know more?
 


alchemy2u said:

4. Can an employer terminate me without advance notice or without giving a reason or an unfair reason for the termination?​


Yes. Illinois is an "employment at-will" state, meaning that an employer or employee may terminate the relationship at any time, without any reason or cause. The employer, however, cannot discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, ancestry, citizenship status, age, marital status, physical or mental handicap, military service or unfavorable military discharge. If you wish to locate additional information, visit the Illinois Department of Human Rights.

FAQs

The Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) provided below highlight topics and specific questions that are often asked of the Illinois Department of Labor (IDOL). The information provided in the FAQs is intended to enhance public access and understanding
labor.illinois.gov labor.illinois.gov
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Did you mean to quote someone else? This literally has nothing to do with anything that I am talking about.

If you intended to send this to me, I'll save you some time.

I'm not in any way arguing that Shannon is an employee of the state of Illinois or that his suspension is like being fired from a job. However, since you went down this route, if he is an employee, he would be a public employee (state of Illinois). Illinois being an at-will employer would have nothing to do with his Constitutional rights.

Below is a nice article breaking down how due process applies to the public sector.

 


atsgopher said:
The EOAA office was still able to scope it into their jurisdiction, since Reggie was a Student and thus bound by the code of conduct.
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Hmmm.

They call themselves the EOT office now, https://eot.umn.edu/about

In my completely layperson and worthless opinion ... this should just be for complains of staff on staff, staff - student, or student-student sexual harassment/assault complaints.

It should not be allowed or possible for this office to investigate anything that a staff or student does to anyone who is not at all affiliated with the University.

I don't see how they could possibly claim legal authority to do so.


I could certainly see that the school has the right to protect itself against students who do any act to anyone in the sense of violating student honor/conduct code.
 

judge issued a temporary restraining order putting in motion Shannon's return to the team. not completely over but looking like shannon will be playing
 






Some guy said:
Yeah. I don’t understand how this is enforceable

DNP - coach’s decision
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Seems like a convenient way to get him back on the court.

Illinois - We need to do something so we are suspending you but if you can get a court order to reverse it we will throw our hands up in the air and say "what can we do? the judge has spoken". I guess we will soon see...
 


Innocent until proven guilty. What has happened to that concept?

Shannon says he didn’t do it. The DNA evidence is not his.

Rape is an ugly word that makes you think of forced intercourse. There was no intercourse. He is charged with grabbing a woman by the p*ssy in a crowded bar. You know, what Trump bragged about and some people want him to be President. In Kansas, that kind of sexual assault is called rape. Shannon says it wasn’t him.

If he is guilty, punish him. But if he is innocent, he would be getting cheated out of playing this season. If he doesn’t play and the case is dropped or he is found not guilty in March, do they just say “whoops, sorry we messed up your life?” He has never been in trouble and has a great reputation around campus.

Again, isn’t it innocent until proven guilty?
 



combes1 said:
Innocent until proven guilty. What has happened to that concept?

Shannon says he didn’t do it. The DNA evidence is not his.

Rape is an ugly word that makes you think of forced intercourse. There was no intercourse. He is charged with grabbing a woman by the p*ssy in a crowded bar. You know, what Trump bragged about and some people want him to be President. In Kansas, that kind of sexual assault is called rape. Shannon says it wasn’t him.

If he is guilty, punish him. But if he is innocent, he would be getting cheated out of playing this season. If he doesn’t play and the case is dropped or he is found not guilty in March, do they just say “whoops, sorry we messed up your life?” He has never been in trouble and has a great reputation around campus.

Again, isn’t it innocent until proven guilty?
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Yikes.
 

combes1 said:
Innocent until proven guilty. What has happened to that concept?

Shannon says he didn’t do it. The DNA evidence is not his.

Rape is an ugly word that makes you think of forced intercourse. There was no intercourse. He is charged with grabbing a woman by the p*ssy in a crowded bar. You know, what Trump bragged about and some people want him to be President. In Kansas, that kind of sexual assault is called rape. Shannon says it wasn’t him.

If he is guilty, punish him. But if he is innocent, he would be getting cheated out of playing this season. If he doesn’t play and the case is dropped or he is found not guilty in March, do they just say “whoops, sorry we messed up your life?” He has never been in trouble and has a great reputation around campus.

Again, isn’t it innocent until proven guilty?
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That’s kinda how the world works.
 

combes1 said:
Innocent until proven guilty. What has happened to that concept?

Shannon says he didn’t do it. The DNA evidence is not his.

Rape is an ugly word that makes you think of forced intercourse. There was no intercourse. He is charged with grabbing a woman by the p*ssy in a crowded bar. You know, what Trump bragged about and some people want him to be President. In Kansas, that kind of sexual assault is called rape. Shannon says it wasn’t him.

If he is guilty, punish him. But if he is innocent, he would be getting cheated out of playing this season. If he doesn’t play and the case is dropped or he is found not guilty in March, do they just say “whoops, sorry we messed up your life?” He has never been in trouble and has a great reputation around campus.

Again, isn’t it innocent until proven guilty?
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Yikes. But also, innocent until proven guilty doesn’t apply to the privilege to play basketball. Being convicted of a crime requires more proof than being suspended from a team/job/etc.
 

In Minnesota he would have been immediately & permanently suspended by a kangaroo trial of HR students, the AD would have self penalized the team for the rest of the year, and the president would have made a run at getting his mom fired from her job.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
innocent until proven guilty doesn’t apply to the privilege to play basketball.
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Maybe so, but to me I don't possible see any leg to stand on (legal, ethical, whatever) to say that but not also suspend him from school, period.

If you're saying he's a threat to the U of IL public community ..... but sure, let him keep going to class?
 

MplsGopher said:
Maybe so, but to me I don't possible see any leg to stand on (legal, ethical, whatever) to say that but not also suspend him from school, period.

If you're saying he's a threat to the U of IL public community ..... but sure, let him keep going to class?
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Agreed. I do wonder if athletes have a different code of conduct as opposed to general student body or if the parameters for suspension are different? No idea.

Also not surprised the courts ruling led to him immediately playing. Definitely could have DNP’d him.
 

combes1 said:
Innocent until proven guilty. What has happened to that concept?

Shannon says he didn’t do it. The DNA evidence is not his.

Rape is an ugly word that makes you think of forced intercourse. There was no intercourse. He is charged with grabbing a woman by the p*ssy in a crowded bar. You know, what Trump bragged about and some people want him to be President. In Kansas, that kind of sexual assault is called rape. Shannon says it wasn’t him.

If he is guilty, punish him. But if he is innocent, he would be getting cheated out of playing this season. If he doesn’t play and the case is dropped or he is found not guilty in March, do they just say “whoops, sorry we messed up your life?” He has never been in trouble and has a great reputation around campus.

Again, isn’t it innocent until proven guilty?
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He will have his day in court...Illinois has every right to not play him while this is an active situation. This take is sad and kind of scary.
 

This is really the key to the ruling: Shannon's attorneys argued the university rushed to judgment and did not follow its protocols. Lawless said the school is prohibited from suspending Shannon before allowing him the protection of policy through the school's Office of Student Conflict Resolution.

The judge essentially ruled that the school did not grant him due process prior to taking away his liberty/property interest in his career by not even going through the school's kangaroo court. It would have been interesting to see how this judge would have ruled if Shannon's suspension actually did go through one of those courts.

I'm surprised the due process argument won but it's not completely crazy to think a basketball player owns a property interest in their basketball career. They can sell it, market it, etc.
 

Dave H said:
He will have his day in court...Illinois has every right to not play him while this is an active situation. This take is sad and kind of scary.
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The coaches have every right not to play him for basketball reasons.

The University does NOT have every right to unilaterally decide his fate prior to any adjudication.
 

The gray area for me is when things happen in the real world, typically you are suspended with pay until the investigation is complete. How would this work in the college athletics setting if they want to be "employees" and have all the protections of it? Suspension while being investigated seems well within the right of the employer/school. Still getting your NIL, still getting your scholarship, still able to get your education. However, we are going to protect ourselves and you from the public by not playing you.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
The gray area for me is when things happen in the real world, typically you are suspended with pay until the investigation is complete. How would this work in the college athletics setting if they want to be "employees" and have all the protections of it? Suspension while being investigated seems well within the right of the employer/school. Still getting your NIL, still getting your scholarship, still able to get your education. However, we are going to protect ourselves and you from the public by not playing you.
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The key is the difference between the public and the private sector.

If they are employees of the university, they would still be offered the protections of requiring due process prior to suspension and/or termination. It's why it's more difficult to fire someone in the public sector than the private sector.

The argument made by his attorney (and this judge seemed to agree) is that suspending Shannon from the team is NOT the equivalent of suspending an accountant for the post office with pay. The impact on Shannon is incredibly negative while the impact on the accountant is minimal.

Your NIL should have nothing to do with it - that would be whatever the contractual language.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
The key is the difference between the public and the private sector.

If they are employees of the university, they would still be offered the protections of requiring due process prior to suspension and/or termination. It's why it's more difficult to fire someone in the public sector than the private sector.

The argument made by his attorney (and this judge seemed to agree) is that suspending Shannon from the team is NOT the equivalent of suspending an accountant for the post office with pay. The impact on Shannon is incredibly negative while the impact on the accountant is minimal.

Your NIL should have nothing to do with it - that would be whatever the contractual language.
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Makes sense. NCAA wants NIL to be part of the school and controlled by the schools, that is why I added it in. Currently it's separate.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
The coaches have every right not to play him for basketball reasons.

The University does NOT have every right to unilaterally decide his fate prior to any adjudication.
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That is actually what I meant to say. I got caught up between two thoughts and it merged into one sentence...
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
The key is the difference between the public and the private sector.

If they are employees of the university, they would still be offered the protections of requiring due process prior to suspension and/or termination. It's why it's more difficult to fire someone in the public sector than the private sector.

The argument made by his attorney (and this judge seemed to agree) is that suspending Shannon from the team is NOT the equivalent of suspending an accountant for the post office with pay. The impact on Shannon is incredibly negative while the impact on the accountant is minimal.

Your NIL should have nothing to do with it - that would be whatever the contractual language.
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While I get the point he is seemingly making, I disagree. Doesn't much matter what I think though ;)
 

Dave H said:
While I get the point he is seemingly making, I disagree. Doesn't much matter what I think though ;)
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Yep, doesn't matter what I think either. I thought he'd lose this argument.

I do find it odd that Illinois didn't push the situation through whatever their process is (those are usually quick and a really low bar), but I was certainly wrong on Shannon's chances of getting the judge to intervene.
 



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