If you were advising Ra'Shede Hageman: stay or enter NFL draft?

If you were advising Ra'Shede Hageman: stay or enter NFL draft?

  • He's proved enough for Scouts, he's earned the money, represent us well on Sunday's!

    Votes: 6 6.4%

  • He needs to come back, dominate next year and move up the draft.

    Votes: 88 93.6%
  • Total voters
    94
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Sportsfan24 said:
So back to question; should he go early? Because I don't see him improving his draft stock (he's not a good football player...he don't understand leverage) I say yes go....before others (NFL) come to the same conclusion.
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I like your posts Sportsfan but I think this is 100% the worst advice you could give to someone that you don't think would be an early pick. If what you say is true then Ra'Shede will need a backup plan for life.
 

DarrenTheGreek said:
I like your posts Sportsfan but I think this is 100% the worst advice you could give to someone that you don't think would be an early pick. If what you say is true then Ra'Shede will need a backup plan for life.
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Oh yeah! Well sometime I don't like the advice I give either (lol).

On a serious note; it's not like a person can't decide to go back to college after football.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I agree with your post except that last paragraph. Hageman was our best player on defense last year. If you don't see him improving himself, I hate to say it, but you're not watching the game. He is a guy who wasn't good at getting out of the block very well and improved DRAMATICALLY since last year.

He is a good football player, the best we've had on the defensive side of the ball in a long time.
Because of his raw athletic abilit, if there is a player who could get better because of more
seasoning, it would be Hageman.

That said, if he can go in the top 2 rounds, he should go. But the idea that he is not a good
football player is absolute nonsense.
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I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

At this level with his measurables I expect dominant performances on occasion. Physically he is so
far ahead most of the guys he go against and to be frank I just don't see it. But what do I know, I don't get paid for my opinions.
 

e.bigelow said:
I am not sure how you can say that he isn't a good football when he was by far one of our best, if not the best, player on our defense this year. The times that he was having a tough time was when he was drawing double teams in the trenches for the vast majority.

Like Bob eluded to, to suggest otherwise is pretty laughable.
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Best player on this defense? No that would be Mike Carter.

Double teams? Maybe you didn't know this but...(whispering) good d-lineman usually are; however they still make plays.

Maybe I am being to hard on him or just plain wrong. While I'm not a fan of the defensive scheme the gophers run, I believe it's more to the detriment of the lb's.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Folks, production has little to nothing to do with getting a shot in the NFL. The Jets Cromartie played in less than 10 college football games and was drafted in the 1st rd. The DB from Nebraska (I refuse to say his name) last season had almost no production, punched a cop in the face the week of the draft and was still drafted.

What matters is does one team like you? Going into the draft Ponder was considered a late 1st rd pick at best; a rush on QB's and the Vikes belief they had to get one caused them to trade up to get him.

Rashede is by no means anywhere near being a finished product. However he is 6'6 and 300 plus lbs. That can't be coached.

So back to question; should he go early? Because I don't see him improving his draft stock (he's not a good football player...he don't understand leverage) I say yes go....before others (NFL) come to the same conclusion.
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??

This makes absolutely no sense. You're right that people can get drafted on intangibles. But Antonio Cromartie took the jump because he knew he was going in the first two rounds. Everyone knew that. Is Hageman even on anyone's radar? Is there any evidence of this at all?

I find the Hageman talk of jumping to the NFL almost as silly as the Marquis talk of the NFL at the beginning of the year. I don't know who is filling their heads with this stuff, but it's damn near totally baseless. Stay in college and get your degree. The 50k signing bonus you get from being drafted in the 7th round isn't worth it.
 


Sportsfan24 said:
Best player on this defense? No that would be Mike Carter.

Double teams? Maybe you didn't know this but...(whispering) good d-lineman usually are; however they still make plays.

Maybe I am being to hard on him or just plain wrong. While I'm not a fan of the defensive scheme the gophers run, I believe it's more to the detriment of the lb's.
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I beg to differ on Michael Carter, even though he had a really good season. In my opinion, it all started with Hageman, he forced QB's out of the pocket enough for Wilhite and our other DE's to make a lot of plays on the outside, the QBs were never comfortable in the pocket. That all was Hageman (IMO). Wilhite's stats went through the roof, because Hageman was dominating.

I think we both know that stats with DT is NOT the way to measure their productivity. However, even still...he was productive.
-He was 2nd amongst all DTs with 5 sacks. The only DT with more was Short (who will be a high pick in the draft and he had 6).
-He was 6th in the entire Big 10 in sacks.
-I also contend that Wilhite had a good year, but it was GREATLY impacted by the emergence of Hageman.

So he DID make plays.

You know this as much as anyone, a good DL can make a secondary look really good. A bad DL can make a secondary look atrocious. I think that is largely what happened with our secondary. We were able to get pressure because we didn't have to blitz. We didn't put our defensive backfield into impossible coverage schemes (like we did in 2011) because we could get to the QB with our DL. Carter was fantastic, no doubt about that. However, I don't think the same Michael Carter would have looked good playing with the DL we had in 2011. Well, I hold that the inverse is true as well. I think our DL made life a lot easier for DBs in 2012 (how much better would Kim have looked if he could have played S instead of his hybrid S/CB he had to play in 2011?). I think the difference in our DL from 2011 to 2012 is the emergence of Rashede Hageman. He changed everything....IMO.
 

Gopherprof said:
??

This makes absolutely no sense. You're right that people can get drafted on intangibles. But Antonio Cromartie took the jump because he knew he was going in the first two rounds. Everyone knew that. Is Hageman even on anyone's radar? Is there any evidence of this at all?

I find the Hageman talk of jumping to the NFL almost as silly as the Marquis talk of the NFL at the beginning of the year. I don't know who is filling their heads with this stuff, but it's damn near totally baseless. Stay in college and get your degree. The 50k signing bonus you get from being drafted in the 7th round isn't worth it.
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On some blurbs I've seen him be talked about around the 5th round. I think NFLSCOUTS has him rated as about the 9th best DT. I think it's certainly possible that Hageman could go in the 3rd / 4th round.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
On some blurbs I've seen him be talked about around the 5th round. I think NFLSCOUTS has him rated as about the 9th best DT. I think it's certainly possible that Hageman could go in the 3rd / 4th round.
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Once you get past the first two rounds, damn near anything is possible. But if I was putting betting odds on Hageman, I'd say his average draft stock sits at the 6th or 7th round. He's more likely to not be drafted at all as to go in the 3rd round or 4th rounds.

Wait a year and develop your skill set. Someone seriously needs to tell him he's nowhere near ready.
 

Sportsfan, you just pointed out that "good d-linemen usually are [double-teamed]." So maybe he really is a good lineman.

I wonder whether what you really meant to say was that he's good because of his physical attributes, not because of his skills. But if that was the case, then spending another year in college learning skills should be really beneficial, no?
 



Gopherprof said:
Once you get past the first two rounds, damn near anything is possible. But if I was putting betting odds on Hageman, I'd say his average draft stock sits at the 6th or 7th round. He's more likely to not be drafted at all as to go in the 3rd round or 4th rounds.

Wait a year and develop your skill set. Someone seriously needs to tell him he's nowhere near ready.
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Yeah, it's sort of a crap shoot. But I think there is 0% chance that he wouldn't get drafted. He will measure better than most of the DTs in the draft and he was one of the most productive DTs in the Big 10.

That said, I think it would be in his best interest to come back. If he has another good year, he will be in the 1st / 2nd round.
 

Yeah, it's sort of a crap shoot. But I think there is 0% chance that he wouldn't get drafted. He will measure better than most of the DTs in the draft and he was one of the most productive DTs in the Big 10.
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Shede had 5 sacks last year. Two of them came against New Hampshire. He had two sacks total in 8 Big Ten games.

He was only "one of the most productive DTs in the Big 10" if you don't count actual Big 10 games. He disappeared in later half of the year.
 

Gopherprof said:
Shede had 5 sacks last year. Two of them came against New Hampshire. He had two sacks total in 8 Big Ten games.

He was only "one of the most productive DTs in the Big 10" if you don't count actual Big 10 games. He disappeared in later half of the year.
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I just looked up his stats...he is second amongst DT's with 5 sacks (Short had 6). DTs don't put up huge stats. If you need evidence, watch the Purdue game, he was dominating in that game but he accumulated no stats. If you think he disappeared in that game, you couldn't have watched the game.

The best statistical game of his career came in the 2nd half of the year: Against Michigan, he had six tackles, a sack, a tipped pass and another TFL.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Best player on this defense? No that would be Mike Carter.

Double teams? Maybe you didn't know this but...(whispering) good d-lineman usually are; however they still make plays.

Maybe I am being to hard on him or just plain wrong. While I'm not a fan of the defensive scheme the gophers run, I believe it's more to the detriment of the lb's.
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Umm. I said "one of the best, if not the best" implying that others could also be considered. I am going to have to say that a major part of the success this year was due to the pressure we generated up front. Look at last year for instance. We were not nearly as good up front which made the secondary suffer in almost every game.

If you just want to go on a statistical basis, our defense improved quite well compared to last years defense. Which was, let's be honest, not very good, statistically.

You talk about good players commanding double teams and say they still make plays. Well, Hageman did do that on occasion. He can't make a huge play EVERY TIME he is double teamed. Those type of expectations are unrealistic. I would think that commanding double teams would be a sign that you are good. that other teams respect your skills and it benefits the rest of your defense, (whispering) especially the other d-lineman.

But, that is just my opinion.
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
I beg to differ on Michael Carter, even though he had a really good season. In my opinion, it all started with Hageman, he forced QB's out of the pocket enough for Wilhite and our other DE's to make a lot of plays on the outside, the QBs were never comfortable in the pocket. That all was Hageman (IMO). Wilhite's stats went through the roof, because Hageman was dominating.

I think we both know that stats with DT is NOT the way to measure their productivity. However, even still...he was productive.
-He was 2nd amongst all DTs with 5 sacks. The only DT with more was Short (who will be a high pick in the draft and he had 6).
-He was 6th in the entire Big 10 in sacks.
-I also contend that Wilhite had a good year, but it was GREATLY impacted by the emergence of Hageman.

So he DID make plays.

You know this as much as anyone, a good DL can make a secondary look really good. A bad DL can make a secondary look atrocious. I think that is largely what happened with our secondary. We were able to get pressure because we didn't have to blitz. We didn't put our defensive backfield into impossible coverage schemes (like we did in 2011) because we could get to the QB with our DL. Carter was fantastic, no doubt about that. However, I don't think the same Michael Carter would have looked good playing with the DL we had in 2011. Well, I hold that the inverse is true as well. I think our DL made life a lot easier for DBs in 2012 (how much better would Kim have looked if he could have played S instead of his hybrid S/CB he had to play in 2011?). I think the difference in our DL from 2011 to 2012 is the emergence of Rashede Hageman. He changed everything....IMO.
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How much better would Kim have looked? It wouldn't have mattered, if you're good, you're good. He led the conference in production at his position on a bowl team, and when he received more opportunities (because they weren't making plays in front of him) he led the nation.

CB's? Your point certainly applies; no corner who has ever played the game can cover indefinitely. Carter was very good with a mediocre pass rush (compared to last season looks awesome) this season. So yes, he did benefit from a improved pass rush but he is still a very good player. Ditto for Brock Vereen who took way to much heat last season.

Shede is a tremendous athlete, i would like to see more of that translate into football. In fairness to him in a more successful program he would have better line mates and less pressure on him.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
How much better would Kim have looked? It wouldn't have mattered, if you're good, you're good. He led the conference in production at his position on a bowl team, and when he received more opportunities (because they weren't making plays in front of him) he led the nation.

CB's? Your point certainly applies; no corner who has ever played the game can cover indefinitely. Carter was very good with a mediocre pass rush (compared to last season looks awesome) this season. So yes, he did benefit from a improved pass rush but he is still a very good player. Ditto for Brock Vereen who took way to much heat last season.

Shede is a tremendous athlete, i would like to see more of that translate into football. In fairness to him in a more successful program he would have better line mates and less pressure on him.
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I agree, he had more tackles because the players in front of him weren't make as many plays. I also never said that Kim wasn't good, I was saying that Kim would have looked even better if he had been playing behind a DL that was getting after the QB better. The same holds true for any defensive back.

As far as our pass rush, we were 6th in the Big 10 in total sacks.
However, we were much better than 6th because we were playing from behind more often than the teams higher than us on the list. Our sack total was accomplished on 357 passing attempts.

So we were sacking people on every 14.28 passing attempts (a slightly better rate than WI (2nd in Big 10 in sacks). When teams were passing against us, we were getting after the QB really well and for the most part we were doing it without blitzing.
 

I googled "NFL Mock Draft Rankings" and these are the top 5 sites and where they have 'Shede being drafted:

CBS Sports: Not ranked (55 DTs were ranked)
WalterFootball: Not ranked (30 DTs and 30 NTs were ranked)
DraftTek: Not ranked (11 3-4 DTs and 11 4-3 DTs were ranked)
Draft Countdown: Not ranked (39 DTs ranked)
Mock Draft HQ: Not ranked (6 DTs ranked, 5 NTs ranked)


For those interested here's where Michael Carter, Troy Stoudermire and DL Wilhite stand:
CBS Sports: Wilhite (#50 DE, #717 overall), Stoudermire (#70 CB, #705 CB), Carter (not ranked)
WalterFootball - ranks 30 at each position: Wilhite (not ranked), Carter (not ranked), Stoudermire (not ranked)
DraftTek - ranks 11 at each position: Wilhite (not ranked), Carter (not ranked), Stoudermire (not ranked)
Draft Countdown: Wilhite (not ranked), Carter (not ranked), Stoudermire (not ranked)

Also, when each of the sites were last updated:
CBS Sports - 12/4
WalterFootball - 11/17
DraftTek - 11/19
Draft Countdown - doesn't say
Mock Draft HQ - doesn't say
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I agree, he had more tackles because the players in front of him weren't make as many plays. I also never said that Kim wasn't good, I was saying that Kim would have looked even better if he had been playing behind a DL that was getting after the QB better. The same holds true for any defensive back.

As far as our pass rush, we were 6th in the Big 10 in total sacks.
However, we were much better than 6th because we were playing from behind more often than the
teams higher than us on the list. Our sack total was accomplished on 357 passing attempts.

So we were sacking people on every 14.28 passing attempts (a slightly better rate than WI (2nd in
Big 10 in sacks). When teams were passing against us, we were getting after the QB really well
and for the most part we were doing it without blitzing.
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Great analysis......ok I'm officially leaning your way, our pass rush was better than I give it credit for. Which is likey attributed to the QB being forced out of he pocket from pressure in the middle.
 

RoyalGopher said:
I googled "NFL Mock Draft Rankings" and these are the top 5 sites and where they have 'Shede being drafted:

CBS Sports: Not ranked (55 DTs were ranked)
WalterFootball: Not ranked (30 DTs and 30 NTs were ranked)
DraftTek: Not ranked (11 3-4 DTs and 11 4-3 DTs were ranked)
Draft Countdown: Not ranked (39 DTs ranked)
Mock Draft HQ: Not ranked (6 DTs ranked, 5 NTs ranked)


For those interested here's where Michael Carter, Troy Stoudermire and DL Wilhite stand:
CBS Sports: Wilhite (#50 DE, #717 overall), Stoudermire (#70 CB, #705 CB), Carter (not ranked)
WalterFootball - ranks 30 at each position: Wilhite (not ranked), Carter (not ranked), Stoudermire (not ranked)
DraftTek - ranks 11 at each position: Wilhite (not ranked), Carter (not ranked), Stoudermire (not ranked)
Draft Countdown: Wilhite (not ranked), Carter (not ranked), Stoudermire (not ranked)

Also, when each of the sites were last updated:
CBS Sports - 12/4
WalterFootball - 11/17
DraftTek - 11/19
Draft Countdown - doesn't say
Mock Draft HQ - doesn't say
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Do any of those sites you listed list underclassmen? A lot of them don't because they don't like to speculate on guys that may or may not be available on draft day. Maybe they factor them in but would not surprise me if they only include them after they declare for the draft definitely could be wrong though as I have not looked at the lists you cited.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Do any of those sites you listed list underclassmen? A lot of them don't because they don't like to speculate on guys that may or may not be available on draft day. Maybe they factor them in but would not surprise me if they only include them after they declare for the draft definitely could be wrong though as I have not looked at the lists you cited.
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Ah, I should have looked for that before I posted. Turns out they all had underclassmen rated except for Draft Countdown. Some of the sites had Hageman going in the 2014 draft. I get the general feel that the so-called "experts" don't really have him on their radar for entering this year.
 

RoyalGopher said:
Ah, I should have looked for that before I posted. Turns out they all had underclassmen rated except for Draft Countdown. Some of the sites had Hageman going in the 2014 draft. I get the general feel that the so-called "experts" don't really have him on their radar for entering this year.
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I would think at the position he is still a pretty unknown commoditiy so not surprised they don't have a lot on him at this point. He strikes me as the type that if he would come out could be one of those guys that shoots up the charts based on workouts and what not given his measurables (assuming of course he performs well).
 

Obviously, everybody on a gopher football forum is going to say he should say....
 

eagan_gopher said:
Obviously, everybody on a gopher football forum is going to say he should say....
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If he would go in the first few rounds most everyone would say go. If he goes in 5th round or later where it could be a stretch to make the team people think he should stay.
 

Regardless of when he goes, I'd advise him to spend his NFL money on jewelry and taking care of his entourage.
 

RoyalGopher said:
I googled "NFL Mock Draft Rankings" and these are the top 5 sites and where they have 'Shede being drafted:

CBS Sports: Not ranked (55 DTs were ranked)
WalterFootball: Not ranked (30 DTs and 30 NTs were ranked)
DraftTek: Not ranked (11 3-4 DTs and 11 4-3 DTs were ranked)
Draft Countdown: Not ranked (39 DTs ranked)
Mock Draft HQ: Not ranked (6 DTs ranked, 5 NTs ranked)


For those interested here's where Michael Carter, Troy Stoudermire and DL Wilhite stand:
CBS Sports: Wilhite (#50 DE, #717 overall), Stoudermire (#70 CB, #705 CB), Carter (not ranked)
WalterFootball - ranks 30 at each position: Wilhite (not ranked), Carter (not ranked), Stoudermire (not ranked)
DraftTek - ranks 11 at each position: Wilhite (not ranked), Carter (not ranked), Stoudermire (not ranked)
Draft Countdown: Wilhite (not ranked), Carter (not ranked), Stoudermire (not ranked)

Also, when each of the sites were last updated:
CBS Sports - 12/4
WalterFootball - 11/17
DraftTek - 11/19
Draft Countdown - doesn't say
Mock Draft HQ - doesn't say
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Hageman is listed as the #9 DT for the 2014 draft at NFL Draft Scout (CBS sports site). When you figure that the top 3 or 4 guys on that list (Hankins-Ohio State, Richardson-Missouri, Floyd-Florida, and Spence-Illinois) have either declared for the draft or likely will, Hageman could be in the pre-season top 5 for 2014 if he sticks around.
 

No way in hell he should go. He is a beast in size and athletic ability, but is not close to ready for the NFL. I would guess he is a 5th round pick at this point. Leaving to be a 5th round pick is not a good move, IMO...
 

If his 4 years thus far had been as DT, it'd be one thing. But he can still learn a lot about playing the position and thus improve his draft stock.
 


I hope he stays, its been since tyrone carter that gophers have had a dominant defensive player!
 

From ESPN B1G Blog: Stay or go pro? Our call on B1G decisions

Go pro: Spence, Lewan, Bell

Lewan is a likely first-round pick -- possibly the second tackle off of the board -- and Michigan's offensive line around him would be very young next year. He should bolt. Bell has 350 carries this year before the bowl game; running backs have short shelf lives, so he needs to get to the NFL before his body shows too much wear and tear. Spence is much less of a sure thing, but he's got an NFL build, has been on scouts' radar for a long time and probably doesn't want to suffer through what could be another long Illini season in 2013.

Go pro if ... : Sims, Gholston, Roby

All three could benefit from another year in college. Yet if they are projected in the top two rounds of the draft, they would probably be wise to strike while the iron is hot. Sims is an impressive physical specimen, but he's really only had one productive year and was hurt for large parts of it. Gholston has as much physical potential as anyone in the league but lacks consistency and could use some more seasoning and maturity. Roby, a redshirt sophomore, had a terrific season but still lacks much game experience. He may want to come back and help lead Ohio State on a potential BCS title run.

Stay in school: Bullough, Dennard, Hageman, Frederick

While all four of these guys would certainly draw some major NFL interest, each probably should spend another year on campus for various reasons. Bullough would have the chance to play alongside his younger brother, Riley, who could push for a starting job in '13. Dennard emerged from the shadow of teammate Johnny Adams this year and doesn't want to see his stock fall like Adams' might have. But he could probably also use a year as Michigan State's true No. 1 corner. Hageman finally lived up to his potential this season and has an NFL body, but the draft is loaded with defensive linemen, and he could use another year of seasoning. Frederick is an outstanding student who only has one full year at center under his belt.
 


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