How long do I need to row the boat until my chili is hot?

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csom_1991

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So far, this season has been a pretty massive disappointment - not just from the start of the season but from the expectations set at the end of last season. I think we can still scrape together 2 more wins, but I don't see us winning 6 or competing against any of the upper tier teams in the Big Ten. Do I see improvement from last year? Maybe a little at best but I still don't see anything innovative for fielding a winning team other than the magical 'recruiting'. I know it is too early to give up on PJ....I know, I know, he gets 3+ years to prove himself.

But, how many of you were thinking 2-10 in the Big Ten? Worse, if Nebraska did not have such an epic collapse, they probably would have beat us last year too. Frankly, I think we will be lucky to beat them this year as I do think they are starting to improve week over week. How many of you were thinking we would see a coach given an "A grade" after losing by 2 TD's to tOSU in a game where tOSU was coming off an emotional win? I thought we were past the stage of cheering for moral victories, I guess not. I hope to see improvement - we all do - but what is the requirement for this season and next before we stop following PJ unconditionally? If we win 2 this year, does he retain his god/king status? If we can't win 6 next year, do we keep talking about extending him a lifetime contract?

This board loves to be revisionist and pretend that you were never hopelessly optimistic about this season (how many people had Vic Viramontes leading us to the top of the West this year?) - so, set your criteria now and don't use a sliding scale for the definition of success as the on field results come in. What is your minimum requirement for this year and next for PJ?
 

Based on the tire fire of 2017 my expectation (which I stated in 2017) was 4 wins in 2018. I revised that to a more optimistic 4-8 win window based on the massive roster changes and unknowns both with us and our opponents. I was encouraged by the non con, then horrified by Maryland. The defense is slowly...ever so slowly improving while the offense is still frustratingly feeble. We are on track to match the offensive output of the Kill-Claeys years. We’ve discovered the middle of the field, but can’t complete anything downfield to save our lives.

Based on the addition of Big Daniel, the healing of Durr, the excellent receivers, the maturation of the offensive line, the emergence of the C+C TFL Factory, hopefully a maturation of Zack, Seth Green and the Wild Gopher, and some other bits and pieces I still feel like 8 wins are on the table.

We don’t play any more top tier teams. Wisconsin looks mortal. Our trend line is up. Our opponents have flaws. Let’s revisit this in a few months.
 

Just for reference, the first 3 games that Claeys officially took over after Kill resigned, they played #15 Michigan, #1 OSU and #8 Iowa. All 3 were losses by 3, 14, and 5 points. Those were moral victories that went nowhere.
 

Breakin' The Plane said:
Just for reference, the first 3 games that Claeys officially took over after Kill resigned, they played #15 Michigan, #1 OSU and #8 Iowa. All 3 were losses by 3, 14, and 5 points. Those were moral victories that went nowhere.
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I don’t remember that team quitting on their coaches so I’d say it did lead somewhere, but I suppose that’s debatable.
 

"they played #15 Michigan, #1 OSU and #8 Iowa. All 3 were losses by 3, 14, and 5 points. Those were moral victories that went nowhere."

I think it is the opposite of the Vin Diesel quote - "Ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning." - same goes with losing. Losing is Losing. Moral victories are the participation trophies for losers.
 


csom_1991 said:
"they played #15 Michigan, #1 OSU and #8 Iowa. All 3 were losses by 3, 14, and 5 points. Those were moral victories that went nowhere."

I think it is the opposite of the Vin Diesel quote - "Ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning." - same goes with losing. Losing is Losing. Moral victories are the participation trophies for losers.
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True, but losing by a tenth of a second means you only need some tweaks to the tires, the chassis, the engine to compete for a win. Losing by laps or a DNF is a whole ‘nother type of losing. You suck, and you’re never going to win. Sell insurance.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
True, but losing by a tenth of a second means you only need some tweaks to the tires, the chassis, the engine to compete for a win. Losing by laps or a DNF is a whole ‘nother type of losing. You suck, and you’re never going to win. Sell insurance.
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I get where you are coming from - but I would add that is only relevant when both teams are playing full out. A great example is Usain Bolt - dude pulls up so he just wins rather than running his best race. I think that is what we got out of OSU today, do enough to win. If we pushed more, I think they could have stepped up their level play further. So, I think OSU is much better than us - not just 14 points better. Borrowing a line from Brewster - it is not a matter of adjusting our pad level and we win that game.
 


csom_1991 said:
I get where you are coming from - but I would add that is only relevant when both teams are playing full out. A great example is Usain Bolt - dude pulls up so he just wins rather than running his best race. I think that is what we got out of OSU today, do enough to win. If we pushed more, I think they could have stepped up their level play further. So, I think OSU is much better than us - not just 14 points better. Borrowing a line from Brewster - it is not a matter of adjusting our pad level and we win that game.
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It was more of Minnesota's miscues rather than Ohio St turning it up a level to "do enough to win"
 



I certainly did not expect to win the West the year and tried to caution people who were excited about Vic (please go back and look at how he finished that JUCO season and notice his lack of offers...). That said, the Gophers are without their best player on offense and their best player on defense. I can't remember another year that has happened to the team. If you want to draw a correlation to Brewster, him losing Decker in year 2 AND year 3 might have been the difference between him getting the program going and him becoming a joke (somewhat unfairly IMHO). Fleck is starting a Freshman QB, a Freshman RB, 2 Freshman Receivers, and 2 Freshman OL at a program that hasn't one anything significant in 50 years. It would be odd if THIS was the year that they turned out to be good wouldn't it? The year they lose their 2 best players to injury and 6/11 starters on offense are Freshman.

Why should their be a requirement in year 2 at Minnesota for W's and L's? Does getting to 6 or 7 wins really mean anything? This program has made it to plenty of minor bowls that mean nothing in the last 15-20 years, but that's led to what exactly? History has shown that if you don't do something significant (ex 6-2 or better in conference play) after 4 years that you are very likely to never do it. Their are very few exceptions to this rule (Frank Beamer is one that I know of), that's it's probably best to cut ties at that point. If you look at Alvarez, Ferentz, Barnett, Tiller, even go back as far as Hayden Fry and you see that coaches either win something significant by that point or they never do. So if you are looking for an answer, I'd give PJ a full four years (something Brewster was not given as he was almost out after year 3) before you stop rowing.

Big picture, I'll never understand why past failed coaches get looked back on fondly by some. This program has been so bad over the last 40-50 years that you'd think it was losing on purpose. One stat that really stands out to me is that Gophers are 7-19 against Iowa the past 26 years and 4-21 against Wisconsin the past 25 years. These records would be tough to swallow if they were against Michigan and Ohio State, but they are against schools that Minnesota has historically been better than (finally a losing record against Wisconsin for the Axe after last year). Lets hope the next quarter century is much more successful.
 

csom_1991 said:
So far, this season has been a pretty massive disappointment - not just from the start of the season but from the expectations set at the end of last season. I think we can still scrape together 2 more wins, but I don't see us winning 6 or competing against any of the upper tier teams in the Big Ten. Do I see improvement from last year? Maybe a little at best but I still don't see anything innovative for fielding a winning team other than the magical 'recruiting'. I know it is too early to give up on PJ....I know, I know, he gets 3+ years to prove himself.

But, how many of you were thinking 2-10 in the Big Ten? Worse, if Nebraska did not have such an epic collapse, they probably would have beat us last year too. Frankly, I think we will be lucky to beat them this year as I do think they are starting to improve week over week. How many of you were thinking we would see a coach given an "A grade" after losing by 2 TD's to tOSU in a game where tOSU was coming off an emotional win? I thought we were past the stage of cheering for moral victories, I guess not. I hope to see improvement - we all do - but what is the requirement for this season and next before we stop following PJ unconditionally? If we win 2 this year, does he retain his god/king status? If we can't win 6 next year, do we keep talking about extending him a lifetime contract?

This board loves to be revisionist and pretend that you were never hopelessly optimistic about this season (how many people had Vic Viramontes leading us to the top of the West this year?) - so, set your criteria now and don't use a sliding scale for the definition of success as the on field results come in. What is your minimum requirement for this year and next for PJ?
Click to expand...

We just DID compete with the top team in the Big 10 on the road.

My recommendation for you if this season is a massive disappointment is to quit following the team. If optimism bothers you. If patience bothers you. If long term goals bother you. Just give up and move on. It’s not for you.


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Section2 said:
We just DID compete with the top team in the Big 10 on the road.

My recommendation for you if this season is a massive disappointment is to quit following the team. If optimism bothers you. If patience bothers you. If long term goals bother you. Just give up and move on. It’s not for you.


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I was just coming here to post this. I get posting this after the Maryland game, but how can someone say the team can't compete with top teams when we just witnessed it with our own eyes yesterday? Very strange. Down 3 at half, 6 going into the 4th despite being without 5 top players due to injury and losing another starter in the first half for targeting. And to say the team was "lucky" to break Nebraska last year because they were in a tailspin? Dude, they sucked. That's why our team won... Not luck.

I get that some people are overly positive about the program and others are overly negative...but statements such as the above seem like grasping at straws a little bit. Same as those who take yesterday as a sign the team is headed nowhere but up. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but I'd encourage folks to just let the rest of the season play out and then make a judgement.

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csom_1991 said:
So far, this season has been a pretty massive disappointment - not just from the start of the season but from the expectations set at the end of last season. I think we can still scrape together 2 more wins, but I don't see us winning 6 or competing against any of the upper tier teams in the Big Ten. Do I see improvement from last year? Maybe a little at best but I still don't see anything innovative for fielding a winning team other than the magical 'recruiting'. I know it is too early to give up on PJ....I know, I know, he gets 3+ years to prove himself.

But, how many of you were thinking 2-10 in the Big Ten? Worse, if Nebraska did not have such an epic collapse, they probably would have beat us last year too. Frankly, I think we will be lucky to beat them this year as I do think they are starting to improve week over week. How many of you were thinking we would see a coach given an "A grade" after losing by 2 TD's to tOSU in a game where tOSU was coming off an emotional win? I thought we were past the stage of cheering for moral victories, I guess not. I hope to see improvement - we all do - but what is the requirement for this season and next before we stop following PJ unconditionally? If we win 2 this year, does he retain his god/king status? If we can't win 6 next year, do we keep talking about extending him a lifetime contract?

This board loves to be revisionist and pretend that you were never hopelessly optimistic about this season (how many people had Vic Viramontes leading us to the top of the West this year?) - so, set your criteria now and don't use a sliding scale for the definition of success as the on field results come in. What is your minimum requirement for this year and next for PJ?
Click to expand...

“You got to bring some to get some.”
 



If you aren’t encouraged by the progress from last year, I’d encourage you to learn more about football before commenting any further. Everything is right on schedule.
 

PoockItInfor6 said:
If you aren’t encouraged by the progress from last year, I’d encourage you to learn more about football before commenting any further. Everything is right on schedule.
Click to expand...

What schedule is that exactly? To win 2 Big Ten games and miss out on a bowl? If this was Claeys of Mason, you would be screaming he should be fired. And no, I am not encouraged by the 'progress' from last year. We should be able to compete with Maryland - not get our doors blown off 42-13. We should be able to compete with Iowa - not give up 48 points. In Claeys' last year, we lost in OT to PSU (finished ranked #7, should have beaten Wisconsin barring ML setting a new record for 4th Q incompetence, we went to, and won a bowl game with our D way more depleted than anything we experienced this year....and oh yeah, we beat the brakes off Maryland.

So, I get Year 0 and our terrible play last year. However, we are 0-3 in the Big Ten and I would guess 50/50 losing to an 0-6 Nebraska next week. I hope Fleck can turn it around but no, I don't see this great improvement you are crowing about. You are literally cheering our game today where we lost by 16 to an OSU team playing half-hearted. If that gives you the warm and fuzzies, then I suggest you tell Fleck you want to be the guy handing out the participation trophies at the end of the season, after we miss a bowl game...again....
 

csom_1991 said:
"they played #15 Michigan, #1 OSU and #8 Iowa. All 3 were losses by 3, 14, and 5 points. Those were moral victories that went nowhere."

I think it is the opposite of the Vin Diesel quote - "Ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning." - same goes with losing. Losing is Losing. Moral victories are the participation trophies for losers.
Click to expand...
Those movies are gay as hell

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I said 5 wins +\-2 it the beginning of the year and still maintain that. I will still stick to what I said after Maryland, show me some heart, show adjustments to give this team a chance, show me improved play from the players as the season wears on. I liked what I saw yesterday from the squad...if I see that the rest of the year I think they will do enough to go to a bowl game. I think that's a good reward for the players and helps continue development. I get the frustration but I still maintain that next year if they stay healthy and we can get more consistent on the QB play this team can contend for the West.
 

I see better talent on the field. I do not see conference wins.

Winning is all that matters. Just win.
 

csom_1991 said:
What schedule is that exactly? To win 2 Big Ten games and miss out on a bowl? If this was Claeys of Mason, you would be screaming he should be fired. And no, I am not encouraged by the 'progress' from last year. We should be able to compete with Maryland - not get our doors blown off 42-13. We should be able to compete with Iowa - not give up 48 points. In Claeys' last year, we lost in OT to PSU (finished ranked #7, should have beaten Wisconsin barring ML setting a new record for 4th Q incompetence, we went to, and won a bowl game with our D way more depleted than anything we experienced this year....and oh yeah, we beat the brakes off Maryland.

So, I get Year 0 and our terrible play last year. However, we are 0-3 in the Big Ten and I would guess 50/50 losing to an 0-6 Nebraska next week. I hope Fleck can turn it around but no, I don't see this great improvement you are crowing about. You are literally cheering our game today where we lost by 16 to an OSU team playing half-hearted. If that gives you the warm and fuzzies, then I suggest you tell Fleck you want to be the guy handing out the participation trophies at the end of the season, after we miss a bowl game...again....
Click to expand...

So outside of just general trolling and trying to piss people off what is your solution? Fire the coach after 1.5 seasons and start over again? We have not exactly had a cakewalk conference schedule to this point. Maryland is clearly better than most here want to give them credit for being. They beat a Texas team that is currently in the top 10 and their only conference loss so far is to Michigan. Iowa is ranked right around #20 and Ohio State is top 3 in the country.

Like it or not this is not the year to judge Fleck based on the teams win/loss record, it just isn't. And if you can't see any reason for optimism with the young talent on offense then you are blind.
 


The chili won't get hot until 2020. Whether you like Fleck or not, he has consistently said 2020 is the year the Gophers will make their mark.
I'm choosing to wait until that season before I call for any change. Until then, I do see reason for hope in the near future. I guess the analogy to keep rowing the boat is a good one. I am, however, choosing to row from the comfort of my warm entertainment room rather than the seats at TCF Bank Field. Perhaps I buy tickets again in 2020.
 



Well. We need to smite Nebraska to keep the optimism window open. As much as I would relish Nebraska at 0-7, I don't think it will be as easy anyone would think it should be based on our sOSU game.

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MNVCGUY said:
So outside of just general trolling and trying to piss people off what is your solution? Fire the coach after 1.5 seasons and start over again? We have not exactly had a cakewalk conference schedule to this point. Maryland is clearly better than most here want to give them credit for being. They beat a Texas team that is currently in the top 10 and their only conference loss so far is to Michigan. Iowa is ranked right around #20 and Ohio State is top 3 in the country.

Like it or not this is not the year to judge Fleck based on the teams win/loss record, it just isn't. And if you can't see any reason for optimism with the young talent on offense then you are blind.
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I love that the Texas game keeps coming up as proof Maryland is good. Without a weather delay of 1.5 hours, Maryland was cooked in that game.

They rested and recovered and weathered the delay much better than Texas did, so no asterisk needed, but if that game doesn’t get interrupted by weather for an hour and a half, Maryland would likely have lost the game.

Their d was bent over, hands on hips and breathing hard after every play. Texas has found a groove on offense and defense and was pulling away.

When play resumed, the Maryland D was able to play much better after the rest.


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caliGopher said:
I love that the Texas game keeps coming up as proof Maryland is good. Without a weather delay of 1.5 hours, Maryland was cooked in that game.

They rested and recovered and weathered the delay much better than Texas did, so no asterisk needed, but if that game doesn’t get interrupted by weather for an hour and a half, Maryland would likely have lost the game.

Their d was bent over, hands on hips and breathing hard after every play. Texas has found a groove on offense and defense and was pulling away.

When play resumed, the Maryland D was able to play much better after the rest.


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Both teams got a break tough ****

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My expectations? This year 5-6 wins. Less than five, I'm gonna be bummed. Five may be acceptable, depending on the details. Six wins gets us a (minor) bowl game and more practice time. Seems like a reasonable goal.

2019, I expect a minimum of 7 regular-season wins.

2020, continued improvement, with competitive performances against every opponent.

"Competitive" is the key word for me. We need to become consistently competitive before worrying too much about overall W-L records.

JTG
 

rockford said:
2020, continued improvement, with competitive performances against every opponent.

"Competitive" is the key word for me. We need to become consistently competitive before worrying too much about overall W-L records.
Click to expand...

So we will be back to 2016 by 2020? Seems like wasted four years just to get a skinnier coach. I have higher expectations. By 2020 we better be winning trophy games and playing in a NYD Bowl!
 

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