Honest Question: What does PJ bring to the table?

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Texan Gopher said:
I know this season has sucked so far.

I get that it is year 7.

BUT, think about NCAA football over the last 7 years .... realignment, NIL, transfer portal, etc.

In these crazy times where college football is turning into the HAVE'S ( THE 15 - 20 SCHOOLS THAT CAN RECRUIT AND PAY THESE HUGH END KIDS) AND THE have not's ( everyone else that will be playing for 8 to 9 win seasons and fun bowl games).

We are a HAVE NOT school. We have to have a coach that can come in and get 3 star recruits, keep them on campus for 5 years and develop them from back ups to good players and starters for a couple years.

I am frustrated as ever with our offensive game.plan and play calling, but taking a look from farther away and seeing where the NCAA is and his headed, we have a guy in PJ that I think fits with what a school.like Minnesota has to do....

We are a developmental type program. Get hard working kids to come in and buy into a culture and fight their way up the depth chart.

6-9 wins a year is the "mountain top" for a school like Minnesota in the new era of college football.
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I hoped for more, but you may be right.

For me, the thing I have noticed is for all their purported differences (and feud) Fleck and Kill are basically the same coach. They both recruit three-star "try hard" guys, get them to hopefully run in the right direction, and hope that lightning strikes every now and then. Fleck's offense is slightly different (hard to tell some times) and Kill's defense was a bit more "forward" with more active LB play, but both guys are ball-control guys whose success is going to hinge on whether that can be accomplished. Each guy has a schtick and a culture that are seemingly different, but I think at base level they run their football operations the same way.

Not saying this is good or bad, but I don't think our reach exceeds our grasp with this type of approach. I'm not saying the Gophers should be a Top-25 team every year (although it would be nice), things just seem to have plateaued and although the changing landscape of college football has contributed to that, there needs to be some re-thinking.

PS--Always need to remember that Harbaugh was on the hot (or at least warm) seat at Michigan several times during his tenure.
 

when Fleck was hired, the thing I heard and read the most often was that "MN should be able to go to the next level."

under Mason, Kill and Claeys, the Gophers were generally able to win 7 or 8 games most years and go to a bowl game. Mason did have one 10-win season. Claeys had a 9-win season.

and people on this board said MN should be able to do better.

Well, Fleck has been a little better. one 11-win season, two 9-win seasons. on paper the recruiting classes have been a little better.

but is this "the next level?" I would say no, it isn't.

Fleck has improved the program, but it's not a major improvement - it's a slight improvement.

so the question remains, is that good enough? Is it good enough to win 7, 8 or 9 games and go to a bowl game? and that question needs to be answered by the fans, the boosters, and the administration.

if - in general - you have a choice between being OK or sucking, I'd rather be OK. sure, it would be nice to be better than OK, but I'm not sure that's possible at MN without Daddy Warbucks showing up with a big bag of cash.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
when Fleck was hired, the thing I heard and read the most often was that "MN should be able to go to the next level."

under Mason, Kill and Claeys, the Gophers were generally able to win 7 or 8 games most years and go to a bowl game. Mason did have one 10-win season. Claeys had a 9-win season.

and people on this board said MN should be able to do better.

Well, Fleck has been a little better. one 11-win season, two 9-win seasons. on paper the recruiting classes have been a little better.

but is this "the next level?" I would say no, it isn't.

Fleck has improved the program, but it's not a major improvement - it's a slight improvement.

so the question remains, is that good enough? Is it good enough to win 7, 8 or 9 games and go to a bowl game? and that question needs to be answered by the fans, the boosters, and the administration.

if - in general - you have a choice between being OK or sucking, I'd rather be OK. sure, it would be nice to be better than OK, but I'm not sure that's possible at MN without Daddy Warbucks showing up with a big bag of cash.
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I also like to factor in that when guys like Kill were here, Wisconsin was basically a juggernaut. Fleck would have no wins against Wisconsin with those outfits.

It's just tough as hell to win here at a high level.
 



PJ is an above average coach who leads with integrity. Minnesota is a hard place to win at and it will get more difficult with the reorganization of the Big Ten. So far it has been a disappointing year but I am sticking with PJ.
 

csom_1991 said:
Maybe I am just out of touch. But, we have kids here that likely grew up in the city and have never been in a boat in their life - much less rowed one. As such, it is an outdated idea like 'Be Kind, Rewind' - maybe it connects with the kids but I don't know how. When I was in high school, our coach came up with the line "it's time to fight on the ice" - everyone cheered in the locker room but no one actually understood what the hell this was supposed to mean so it was a calling card of the coach - but utterly meaningless to the players. My opinion of Fleck is he is no different than the high school coach which checks your grades and makes you wear a tie to school on game days. Yes, it is good for a culture and probably kept some of the kids out of trouble - but it does not overcome talent gaps and win national titles.
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Top high school recruits want two things: playing time and a chance to play on a big winner with national relevance.
 

kg21 said:
We are very bad at wide receiver. I don't understand how you can say this.

I hear every game how the receivers are getting no separation.
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He has had 2 first round draft pick WRs (including Davis at WMU) and another drafted (could really credit him for developing Tyler Johnson as he was somewhat raw). That’s probably near the top of the B1G in results in that department. Has gotten other 4-5* recruits/transfers; agree the results are not there right now.
 





These threads are tiring. Barring a scandal, there is literally zero chance PJ is getting fired for at least 2-3 years. Zero. If we're still losing games 52-10 two years from now, maybe. It's pointless to discuss now.
 

Dano564 said:
It's early, but this is a contender for dumbest post I'll read today.
You did nothing to build a worthy argument, and most of what you are implying is based on false premises.

1. The not an X's and O's coach is something that's been broadly over perpetuated on this site than anywhere else. If you watched this program and don't think he is at least an average coach when it comes to X's and O's, among 130 coaches, I can't help you. Your head is too deep in the sand.

2. People complain about his game day coaching, but he's made very few bad coaching decisions that have cost us games. There have been a couple against Purdue, Northwestern and Bowling Green, but he has also won more games of these types than most. He may not be the best game day coach, I'm curious who your top 10 game day coaches are, and we can check with those fan bases and they would largely scoff at you for believing that if you tried to tell them that.

3. You are dead wrong on player development coach. By magazines that have tracked this PJ has shown he's top 7 in both player development (getting players drafted) and in player performance (winning more games with less talent). If you are this ignorant to the fact this is a strength of his across college football, I'm feeling sadness in the fact I am even trying to communicate this with you because you were obviously too ignorant and biased to try and investigate this point before trashing the head coach.

At this point I'm going to end my rebuttal because someone who is is this lazy in forming an opinion doesn't need the attention I've given you.
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And after I have given you book length attention I’ll say you were worth no attention.
 

btowngopher said:
They also want money.
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They want money now because it’s being thrown around. If NIL came from revenues and was on an equalized basis by conference it would be back to two things.

If Troy paid the most money Alabama would still get the best players.
 



DCinOK said:
He does have charisma. The thought of a Claeys, Kill, whatever at the helm...I'll pass. Assure me we have a great coach lined up to take his spot, then let's move on. If not, stick with him.
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Yet serious football coaches with limited charisma are successful and respected.
 

Good point
NotAFanOfBecky said:
Best run of successful seasons in my 45+ year history of watching, he’s earned more time from me. I’ve been through way too many years of misery.
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- winning at something like 62%, better than Warmath or Mason. For me, the Northwestern game was a worse loss than the expected Michigan one: collapsing in the 4th quarter with a three touchdown lead (bring back Tracy Claeys - he and Kill had defenses that could play with the big boys). With a Northwestern victory we'd be 4-2, with two extra wins more than likely. I'd love to see Cole start one of these games, give him a real shot. Also, PJ has to stop running his backs into the ground until they're injured- Evans and Williams both looked good last night, an argument for rotation. Evans has a lot to offer. Play-calling against Michigan was vanilla, as usual. Let's hire the OC from Kansas or someone like him with imagination.
 


Dakota2 said:
Top high school recruits want two things: playing time and a chance to play on a big winner with national relevance.
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Now the tippy top high school recruits want more than those 2 things: NIL$ which may be more important than winning trophy games, and IMMEDIATE playing time, not just the prospect of playing time.

The last two 9 win seasons were in part possible because PJ was seemingly more successful than almost anyone at convincing key contributors to stay for their COVID super-senior 6th (or 7th!) year. That loophole is gone, and it’s unlikely in the future anyone will stay without NIL $$$ just for the chance to “be a part of something special” as was the reason cited by several of his players.
 

I don’t know, the best record overall and in the Big Ten and the best bowl record of any coach in the last 50+ years? Besides that, not much. Let’s o back to what we had the last 55 years, why not? Another 55 years would be great.
 

NotAFanOfBecky said:
Best run of successful seasons in my 45+ year history of watching, he’s earned more time from me. I’ve been through way too many years of misery.
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Yeah this is my take.
It’s disappointing.
But I think he still gets another season and a half at least from me
 

Dakota2 said:
And after I have given you book length attention I’ll say you were worth no attention.
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Three clear paragraphs on a separate point each is too much for you to comprehend?
 

make no mistake - Fleck is not getting fired as long as Coyle is the AD. doesn't matter what the record is.

I could see Fleck leaving for another job, but he's not getting fired.

so for Gopher fans, Fleck is going to be here. and the fans need to decide for themselves if that is OK.
 

csom_1991 said:
The feeder program really doesn't work because of the draft. I have said this many times before on this board - I think our only chance for relevance is to get an identity again. Hate on Mason all you want, but he put running backs into the NFL and our ground game was known throughout the nation. This likely won't ever win you a national title, but at least you remain relevant. Build that identity back and try to develop o line and running backs as your calling card. In the off chance we ever get a legit QB here - no way in hell will they stick around anyway which makes the NIL a joke for us so forget about the passing game saving us. Sell out to build an o line and run game like Mason had - get a national identity back.
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Mason and the Gophers did not have a national identity, and if they did it was blowing massively large leads.
 

SHGopher said:
1. He's never had a string of bad seasons. He's never been in the zone of firing. He's been to bowls and won them. Remember that. Remember the coaches before him.

2. The criticism this season of his tendencies and shortfalls is legit.

Two things can exist at the same time. It's not only that or only this.
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A third thing can also be true - PJ has had the benefit of playing in a bad Big 10 West during his tenure. Now, he shouldn't have to apologize for being decent in a bad Big 10 West but the "sustained success" bleated about on this forum should carry a big caveat.

The reality is that he isn't going anywhere - this year. And I don't think he should. He's earned more of a leash than what this forum is giving him.

But I agree with many here who think that circumstances have changed since PJ arrived. The thought was that his motivational speaker shtick would lead to an uptick in recruiting. While that may have been true then, NIL and the transfer portal have changed the dynamics away from PJ's favor.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
make no mistake - Fleck is not getting fired as long as Coyle is the AD. doesn't matter what the record is.

I could see Fleck leaving for another job, but he's not getting fired.

so for Gopher fans, Fleck is going to be here. and the fans need to decide for themselves if that is OK.
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I agree that Fleck isn't getting fired. And the problem in college coaching is that coaches are either fired, at great expense, or extended. When was the last major college FB coach left as a lame duck and the contract left to expire? If PJ were fired, who would pay for it?

PJ seems a little put out these days. It wouldn't surprise me if he took at least a lateral hire somewhere. I doubt it happens this year but if he can bounce back with nine wins next year, I wouldn't be surprised to see him move in. His style seems like it runs its course and needs a new start now and again.
 

Dakota2 said:
They want money now because it’s being thrown around. If NIL came from revenues and was on an equalized basis by conference it would be back to two things.

If Troy paid the most money Alabama would still get the best players.
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If Troy was throwing around the most money in NIL per player, in five years they would be a CFB Playoff contender.
 

Fleck's biggest strengths to me are his abilty to promote his program and the way his program represents the University off the field. In his first few years, PJ was great at selling his vision and promoting the University both to current fans and attempting to bring in new ones. Throughout his tenure, I can't even recall any issues a player has had off the field. The only negative PR we've received from our football program is for PJ's own alleged behavior in how he runs his program in the story that reoccurs every other year. I personally care very little about anything but W's and L's, but can acknowledge these are significant strengths for many.

I was listenting to a National podcast like the Friday before the Lousiana game and the host and the guest were wondering if PJ's "Row the Boat" stuff has a shelf life and it was wearing thin with people in and around the program. I've always heard that theory in pro sports where head coaches get tuned out after X number of years and I wonder if PJ's unique personality makes him prone to that at the college level. Maybe his strengths as a coach lead to him being better served to taking over a new program every 4-5 years thorugh 1 cycle of players. There had been rumors of PJ not being the easiest guy to work for last Winter when a lot of the veteran coaches on the staff left for other jobs. I don't have any inside information there, but it would jive with the theory of a "shelf life".

I think the game day coaching is the easiest area to point to as a huge issue. People talk about what this program can or can't be, but it's tough to take a step forward when you lose games due to in game decision making by your head coach.

The next biggest issue is PJ's aversion to the forward pass. I thought that would be the strength of this program and what separated us from the rest of the B1G West. Since 2019 it's become a massive weakness to such a degree that I believe it has significantly hurt recruiting.

Recruiting is the biggest question mark to me. I want it to be better, but there are also some positive signs. We've lost an early commit each of the past two years to Clemson and have lost several commits to Florida in the past class or two. That leads me to believe that they are doing a good job with their early evaluations. I also think this is the strongest in-state recruiting class of his tenure for '24 as long as they hold on to Koi. As a whole though, we're not even out-recruiting a school like Purdue who just hired a relatively non descript defensive coordinator from Illinois or Iowa with a 70 year old coach who has had a lot of bad press.
 

EG#9 said:
I was listenting to a National podcast like the Friday before the Lousiana game and the host and the guest were wondering if PJ's "Row the Boat" stuff has a shelf life and it was wearing thin with people in and around the program. I've always heard that theory in pro sports where head coaches get tuned out after X number of years and I wonder if PJ's unique personality makes him prone to that at the college level. Maybe his strengths as a coach lead to him being better served to taking over a new program every 4-5 years thorugh 1 cycle of players. There had been rumors of PJ not being the easiest guy to work for last Winter when a lot of the veteran coaches on the staff left for other jobs. I don't have any inside information there, but it would jive with the theory of a "shelf life".
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PJ's type and style isn't for me personally but I'm not playing for him so who cares? And if the players buy into it and the team is winning on the field, more power to him. But I agree on the shelf life theory and further, believe his style is less effective in the NIL era.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was difficult to work for. I suspect that given PJ's limited X's and O's ability and not being the most intellectual guy, a lot of assistants find the shtick tough to swallow. I can't stand sitting through motivational speaker types, corporate team building and all that. I tend to suspect there isn't a lot of substance behind the phraseology and clichés. If that's true here, it'd be tough to work for.
 

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