Hoffarber Starting

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SelectionSunday said:
This thread is an example of why I frequent this place less & less. I understand that Blake has limitations, but anyone who can't see that his value is more than just as a 3-point shooter either isn't paying attention and/or is completely clueless. Too many people here just looking for a reaction. Sorry, I couldn't help myself, I took the bait. Enough said.
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Truly man, been missing seeing you on here. I always look forward to reading your posts.
 

SS - I've been following/posting on GopherHole since the 1997 season that wasn't. Like you, I just find less and less reason to post on here. It just doesn't seem worth it anymore, too much negativity, too much smart alecky snark, too much hyperbole. And a certain amount of just plain basketball ignorance. (Goes doubly for the football board...)

Blake Hoffarber would have had a major role on Bill Musselman's teams, Jim Dutcher's teams, and Clem Haskins' teams. Coaches *love* players who follow what the coach wants and buys into the system. Obviously his shooting helps, but I can think of 7 or 8 games in the last three years when he made a key rebound that saved/helped win a game. And as others have said, he doesn't seem to feel that he's too good to pass the ball into the post like certain other players in the past coupla years...

I also seem to remember him hitting a key late-game shot in the B10 Tournament......
 

jovs said:
I like starting both Joseph and Hoffarber with Nolen substituting. They had success starting both last year when Nolen was ineligible, why change it. I also think that you have to evaluate the playing time for Hoffarber when you play the Michigan States. Against the more athletic teams he is less effective.
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More bait.

Anderson8284 said:
SS - I've been following/posting on GopherHole since the 1997 season that wasn't. Like you, I just find less and less reason to post on here. It just doesn't seem worth it anymore, too much negativity, too much smart alecky snark, too much hyperbole. And a certain amount of just plain basketball ignorance.
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Too true.
 

KSBGopher said:
You must have as much trouble understanding gymnastics as you do mathematics. I learned this one at about the age of 5: 10.2>10.0. Think harder? Them's some fancy gymnasticums.
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Ya got me there, KSB!! By two tenths. Wow - what a landslide! I mean that's like 1 point every, um..... 5 games - or something -- I can't do those sorts of mathematical "gymnasticums."

Holy crap! How could I think that was the same and stuff. Not at all almost exactly, and for the general purpose of this (as it turns out, asinine) discussion, the same. I concede. I shoulda studied my three Rs harder, 'steada working in the mines.

You asked forgiveness for your hostility, then continued to be hostile. My age 4.5 and-a-half math tells me you are trolling for a fight. Well done.
 

GopherJake said:
Ya got me there, KSB!! By two tenths. Wow - what a landslide! I mean that's like 1 point every, um..... 5 games - or something -- I can't do those sorts of mathematical "gymnasticums."

Holy crap! How could I think that was the same and stuff. Not at all almost exactly, and for the general purpose of this (as it turns out, asinine) discussion, the same. I concede. I shoulda studied my three Rs harder, 'steada working in the mines.

You asked forgiveness for your hostility, then continued to be hostile. My age 4.5 and-a-half math tells me you are trolling for a fight. Well done.
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I never was trying to be hostile, but when you are going to be aggressive, I'll be aggressive right back. How is that possibly trolling anyways if I'm offering reasons for what I'm trying to argue.

Here is the definition of trolling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

I don't understand how this thread is at all off-topic if we are discussing the Gophers starting 5 and Hoff's importance in bigger games.

Furthermore, I never said he was only useful as a dead-eye shooter. And the ridiculous comments about coming here "less and less" are worthless. If you guys don't want to join in the discussion because you disagree with others then you might as well not be here. The comments and reactions to this thread have been all but condescending and hostile. I'm sorry, but Blake may do things well off the ball to set up assists and transitions into the post and get clutch rebounds in some games, but even those intangibles seem to come into play less in bigger games. And who's to say that with Nolen and Devoe on the court they can't both move off the ball effectively enough to set up post shots or give the ball to Rodney to draw a double and kick it out to either of them to hit a three or drive in for a foul/lay-up (.388 and .396 compared to Blake's .467). The other part of the reason is that I think Rodney will definitely be able to pull down more rebounds than Blake, which seemed like something we really lacked last year.

I can barely understand the kenpom.com site, but I do see that the site lists Mich. St. at 23 and Wisco at 9 with North Carolina coming in 60th this year. I'm also not sure that the website is dedicated/credible to listing players' ranks at all. Kinda weird...:rolleyes:
 


KSBGopher said:
I never was trying to be hostile, but when you are going to be aggressive, I'll be aggressive right back.
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I think where you got off-track was your repeated usage of the condescending "Try harder." What do you think?
 

KSBGopher said:
I can barely understand the kenpom.com site, but I do see that the site lists Mich. St. at 23 and Wisco at 9 with North Carolina coming in 60th this year. I'm also not sure that the website is dedicated/credible to listing players' ranks at all. Kinda weird...:rolleyes:
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No, that is last year's data, not this year's.

He does list players by offensive efficiency. He sorts players according to how many possessions they use, due to the theory that it is easier to have a high efficiency if one rarely shoots and rarely generates assists. For example, click here for the offensive rating for just B10 players from last year.

There are essentially four leaders, based on usage. The list shows the Offensive Rating, with the percentage of possessions used in parentheses. The first grouping are for players who use at least 28% of their team's possessions when they are on the floor (i.e. whenever that player is on the floor, at least 28% of possessions end with said player shooting a FG or FT or TO or assist.) Evan Turner was the leader in this highest usage grouping with an Offensive Rating of 108.5. Note also how much higher his usage was than everyone else.

Leuer was the leader by a wide margin of the next group that used at least 24% of possessions. Hummel was the leader of the next group, that used more than 20%. And Hoffarber was the leader by a wide margin of the last group, that included all players, with an offensive rating of 131.7, while using 14.4% of possessions. You have to consider usage rate together with offensive rating. The offensive rating takes into consideration how many points you generate based on the number of possessions used. Things that hurt: missed shots and turnovers. Things that help: shooting a high percentage on field goals and free throws, offensive rebounds, assists, low turnover rate.

This system is becoming more mainstream and a number of commentators such as Luke Winn and a few others now use this.
 

RichInBunlyGoodness said:
No, that is last year's data, not this year's.

He does list players by offensive efficiency. He sorts players according to how many possessions they use, due to the theory that it is easier to have a high efficiency if one rarely shoots and rarely generates assists. For example, click here for the offensive rating for just B10 players from last year.

There are essentially four leaders, based on usage. The list shows the Offensive Rating, with the percentage of possessions used in parentheses. The first grouping are for players who use at least 28% of their team's possessions when they are on the floor (i.e. whenever that player is on the floor, at least 28% of possessions end with said player shooting a FG or FT or TO or assist.) Evan Turner was the leader in this highest usage grouping with an Offensive Rating of 108.5. Note also how much higher his usage was than everyone else.

Leuer was the leader by a wide margin of the next group that used at least 24% of possessions. Hummel was the leader of the next group, that used more than 20%. And Hoffarber was the leader by a wide margin of the last group, that included all players, with an offensive rating of 131.7, while using 14.4% of possessions. You have to consider usage rate together with offensive rating. The offensive rating takes into consideration how many points you generate based on the number of possessions used. Things that hurt: missed shots and turnovers. Things that help: shooting a high percentage on field goals and free throws, offensive rebounds, assists, low turnover rate.

This system is becoming more mainstream and a number of commentators such as Luke Winn and a few others now use this.
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In all seriousness, fabulous job of explaining.
 

This thread is an example of why I frequent this place less & less.
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Yeah, but where else can you run across someone with the handle of RichInBunlyGoodness?

Who can put a price on that type of Americana? :pig:
 



KSBGopher said:
And who's to say that with Nolen and Devoe on the court they can't both move off the ball effectively enough to set up post shots or give the ball to Rodney to draw a double and kick it out to either of them to hit a three or drive in for a foul/lay-up (.388 and .396 compared to Blake's .467).
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Seems to me you suffer from Myron syndrome. You have your favorite "athletic" players and you can't get past it... Thankfully Tubby sees it clearly.
_________

RichInBunlyGoodness- Thanks for the explanation!
 

KSBGopher said:
I never was trying to be hostile, but when you are going to be aggressive, I'll be aggressive right back. How is that possibly trolling anyways if I'm offering reasons for what I'm trying to argue.

Here is the definition of trolling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

I don't understand how this thread is at all off-topic if we are discussing the Gophers starting 5 and Hoff's importance in bigger games.

Furthermore, I never said he was only useful as a dead-eye shooter. And the ridiculous comments about coming here "less and less" are worthless. If you guys don't want to join in the discussion because you disagree with others then you might as well not be here. The comments and reactions to this thread have been all but condescending and hostile. I'm sorry, but Blake may do things well off the ball to set up assists and transitions into the post and get clutch rebounds in some games, but even those intangibles seem to come into play less in bigger games. And who's to say that with Nolen and Devoe on the court they can't both move off the ball effectively enough to set up post shots or give the ball to Rodney to draw a double and kick it out to either of them to hit a three or drive in for a foul/lay-up (.388 and .396 compared to Blake's .467). The other part of the reason is that I think Rodney will definitely be able to pull down more rebounds than Blake, which seemed like something we really lacked last year.

I can barely understand the kenpom.com site, but I do see that the site lists Mich. St. at 23 and Wisco at 9 with North Carolina coming in 60th this year. I'm also not sure that the website is dedicated/credible to listing players' ranks at all. Kinda weird...:rolleyes:
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Not everyone attacked you. I certainly didn't. And we don't know how well the offense will flow with Joseph and Nolen because they've barely been on the court together the previous 2 seasons. Maybe they will but at the moment the chemistry is probably a work in progress and also remember that those are our only 2 PGs. As for rebounding, Blake was our best backcourt rebounder last year
 

Thank you. I feel like every other month someone starts this topic and you and I (among others) have to point these things out. Not everything shows up in the stats.

GopherJake said:
He's the smartest player on the floor, he's by far the biggest 3 point threat (and your comments notwithstanding, has proven repeatedly that he can do it with a defender right in his face), he understands what Tubby is trying to do on offense better than anyone, he is a superb passer, he is an excellent rebounding guard, he doesn't get into foul trouble, he is an excellent free throw shooter and his defense is better than he gets credit for. There's your 28 minutes.
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RichInBunlyGoodness said:
No, that is last year's data, not this year's.

He does list players by offensive efficiency. He sorts players according to how many possessions they use, due to the theory that it is easier to have a high efficiency if one rarely shoots and rarely generates assists. For example, click here for the offensive rating for just B10 players from last year.

There are essentially four leaders, based on usage. The list shows the Offensive Rating, with the percentage of possessions used in parentheses. The first grouping are for players who use at least 28% of their team's possessions when they are on the floor (i.e. whenever that player is on the floor, at least 28% of possessions end with said player shooting a FG or FT or TO or assist.) Evan Turner was the leader in this highest usage grouping with an Offensive Rating of 108.5. Note also how much higher his usage was than everyone else.

Leuer was the leader by a wide margin of the next group that used at least 24% of possessions. Hummel was the leader of the next group, that used more than 20%. And Hoffarber was the leader by a wide margin of the last group, that included all players, with an offensive rating of 131.7, while using 14.4% of possessions. You have to consider usage rate together with offensive rating. The offensive rating takes into consideration how many points you generate based on the number of possessions used. Things that hurt: missed shots and turnovers. Things that help: shooting a high percentage on field goals and free throws, offensive rebounds, assists, low turnover rate.

This system is becoming more mainstream and a number of commentators such as Luke Winn and a few others now use this.
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Thanks for this explanation. That's actually kinda sweet.
 



Alright, so I guess I may have been aggressive as well. It's too soon for me to be assessing Williams' rebounding ability and ability to drive (his ball-handling last year was horrid at points). I guess I am just expecting him to live up to the hype and, if he does, I think starting him should be an option Tubby should consider. The point of this thread was to discuss the 3 guard formation and which would be the best combo (given Nolen Devoe - which is what I took to be a strong chance with what Devoe said about how well he and Nolen work together). It wasn't about trolling or anything like that, I just wanted to open it up so we could discuss the pros and cons of what would happen if Hoff started or if Williams started. That said, this thread could have been started a little better by myself; I came out strong and for that I apologize.
 

When the game is in it's opening minutes, the energy level is at it's highest. When this is the case, transition offense and defense are king. While Hoff certainly isn't a superb transition defender, he certainly holds his own. He is, however, an absolute weapon in the Gophers transition offense. Shooters should always be in the starting lineup and can be subbed out once things get into half court sets.

Relative the Gophers starting lineup, Blake should be starting and paired with Nolen as much as possible. Devoe deserves to start, but might be better served coming off the bench as he can create his own shot. You could start all 3 of those kids, but that might mean Maverick running the point for a couple minutes each game - a situation I'd rather not watch.
 

hoff cant play D, rebound, disrupt passing lanes, run the break, create turnovers, etc...

he can shoot.

play him 10 minutes per game to give the D something to think about.

don't make him option #1, #2, or even #3.

he can break a game open or get you back in it during a 4-out-of-5 two minute run. then get him off the floor.
 

KoolAid said:
When the game is in it's opening minutes, the energy level is at it's highest. When this is the case, transition offense and defense are king. While Hoff certainly isn't a superb transition defender, he certainly holds his own. He is, however, an absolute weapon in the Gophers transition offense. Shooters should always be in the starting lineup and can be subbed out once things get into half court sets.

Relative the Gophers starting lineup, Blake should be starting and paired with Nolen as much as possible. Devoe deserves to start, but might be better served coming off the bench as he can create his own shot. You could start all 3 of those kids, but that might mean Maverick running the point for a couple minutes each game - a situation I'd rather not watch.
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Well said.
 

dboy said:
hoff cant play D, rebound, disrupt passing lanes, run the break, create turnovers, etc...

he can shoot.
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Hoff plays above average team defense, he is not a lock down man2man defender, but he is rarely asked to be and he is rarely out of position.

He is the best rebounding guard on the team. Stats don't lie.

He is especially effective in "the break" if you lose him in transition, he's deadly. You're not watching if you don't see Hoff involved in almost every break.

Yes, he can shoot. He does a lot of other things you obviously don't care to look for. He doesn't the turn the ball over, and he is the best guard we have in terms of feeding the post.
 

Posts like this make this place less interesting and I don't return as often to sites that have boring or predictable (or just plain stupid) content.

As SS stated earlier....

"This thread is an example of why I frequent this place less & less"

As a regular since '97 I still enjoy this place for the info that can be gleaned, but the message board content often is brutal. No more bait for me as well.
 

Gold Vision said:
Hoff plays above average team defense, he is not a lock down man2man defender, but he is rarely asked to be and he is rarely out of position.

He is the best rebounding guard on the team. Stats don't lie.

He is especially effective in "the break" if you lose him in transition, he's deadly. You're not watching if you don't see Hoff involved in almost every break.

Yes, he can shoot. He does a lot of other things you obviously don't care to look for. He doesn't the turn the ball over, and he is the best guard we have in terms of feeding the post.
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'above average team defense'.... translation: cant play man2man in big10.
'best rebounding guard'.. equates to "ralph can run the point better than colton".
'doesnt turn the ball over'.. because he dribbles less than Rodney..

playtime is over. we need all five starters to play lockdown D this year. hoff is game breaker in certain situations... thats all.
 

dboy said:
'above average team defense'.... translation: cant play man2man in big10.
'best rebounding guard'.. equates to "ralph can run the point better than colton".
'doesnt turn the ball over'.. because he dribbles less than Rodney..

playtime is over. we need all five starters to play lockdown D this year. hoff is game breaker in certain situations... thats all.
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Based on your posts over the past year regarding playing time, starters, Tubby's in-game coaching decisions, etc., I thank God that the closest you get to making decisions regarding our basketball program is whether or not you sign on to Gopherhole.

I think you should give Tubby a call/email with your "advice;" I'm sure he'll give your opinion the highly-deserved consideration it warrants based on your extensive basketball knowledge.
 

dboy said:
'above average team defense'.... translation: cant play man2man in big10.
'best rebounding guard'.. equates to "ralph can run the point better than colton".
'doesnt turn the ball over'.. because he dribbles less than Rodney..

playtime is over. we need all five starters to play lockdown D this year. hoff is game breaker in certain situations... thats all.
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This post makes zero sense, I don't even know how to answer you. You don't understand the simplest of basketball concepts.
 

sal said:
Posts like this make this place less interesting and I don't return as often to sites that have boring or predictable (or just plain stupid) content.

As SS stated earlier....

"This thread is an example of why I frequent this place less & less"

As a regular since '97 I still enjoy this place for the info that can be gleaned, but the message board content often is brutal. No more bait for me as well.
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What kind of contribution is this? Some pathetic self-serving comment as to how awesome and knowledgeable you are about basketball? You are awesome and way above this forum; go elsewhere oh wise one.
 

Gold Vision said:
This post makes zero sense, I don't even know how to answer you. You don't understand the simplest of basketball concepts.
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okay, let me try to make it simple:

hoff = randymoss = jimthome

freaks in one aspect of their sports ( the 3, the deep pass, the HR ). game breakers in certain spots...

use them in spot situations...
 

^ still makes no sense, randy moss started every game and dominated the ball, thome started every game in his young career, futhermore those dont have anything to do with basketball.
 

FWIW KSB, my reply was intended for dboy. I must have screwed up the reply thingy.

"That said, this thread could have been started a little better by myself; I came out strong and for that I apologize."

Apology accepted.
 

dboy said:
okay, let me try to make it simple:

hoff = randymoss = jimthome

freaks in one aspect of their sports ( the 3, the deep pass, the HR ). game breakers in certain spots...

use them in spot situations...
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207_not_sure_if_serious.jpg
 

dboy said:
okay, let me try to make it simple:

hoff = randymoss = jimthome

freaks in one aspect of their sports ( the 3, the deep pass, the HR ). game breakers in certain spots...

use them in spot situations...
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So... what you're saying is that Hoffarber will go pro and possibly make the hall of fame? Why the hell wouldn't we start him then?!?!?!
 

Use them in spot situations? They're both going to eventually go to the hall of fame.

dboy said:
okay, let me try to make it simple:

hoff = randymoss = jimthome

freaks in one aspect of their sports ( the 3, the deep pass, the HR ). game breakers in certain spots...

use them in spot situations...
Click to expand...
 

Okay this is getting way off-topic. Hoff shouldn't be used off the bench only in certain situations. He's the kind of guard that can be used to disrupt the defensive flow of the other team, regardless of the score. What I was trying to discuss was the combination of Nolen, Devoe, and Rodney. I think that three guard (Rodney plays SG/SF - so take it with a grain of salt) could be more explosive against the more athletic teams in the conference than the Nolen, Devoe, Blake combo...this thread is going on a tangent.
 

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