Hoffarber Starting

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KSBGopher

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Does anyone else think not starting the Hoff might be a good idea? Not that I don't think his deep-threat is a good addition to the team, but he's a hot-cold player and, to be honest, he seems to get cold in the bigger games. I realize there is going to be a big reaction to this...but I've always thought Hoff was a little overrated as a player. That his % drops drastically against teams where it matters. The second he is covered by a defender that knows what they are doing it's pretty much over for him. That said, he will be extraordinarily useful off the bench: he will force a defensive change and at least respect for the deep-threat. But can we afford to play him all that much in conference games? It's early in the season, but we have talent. If Devoe heals up, should we think of not playing Hoff as much as we did last season?

My starting 5:

Nolen
Devoe
Rodney
Mbakwe
Iverson
 

Fortunately Tubby is the coach and you are a gopherhole'r.
 


I really do not give a rats ass who starts the games. My concerns center around the minutes players get, and the combinations that get a chance to be in the game at the same time. If it all comes together correctly this could be a 2nd or 3rd place B10 team.

Players that need to get a lot (25 plus) minutes:

MBakwe
Iverson
Joseph
Hoff
Williams if he plays D and can hit a jump shot

The jury is out on the rest; they can compete for the honor of playing.
Nolen
Sampson
the rest
 

98VQueens said:
Fortunately Tubby is the coach and you are a gopherhole'r.
Click to expand...

Surely you should try harder. Take a peak at the stats. The last ten games of the year last year Hoff was unimpressive at best. Why does every Gopher fan love him? Don't just criticize but offer some kind of reason for enjoying his play so much. Is he a J.J. Redick? No. What is he? Tell me how he is so useful that he averages 28 mins and puts up only 10 points (including non-conference) last year?
 


IMO, Hoffarber is a good college player who should not be a go to guy on a top level team, more of a role player. I have no problem with him starting, and if the Gophs have someone who can drive and dish he is a major weapon. If not, he is not great a getting his own shot. I think he has earned a good amount of PT, but I think he effectiveness will depend on the ability of someone commanding double teams or driving the lane and kicking out to him for open looks. I think he can be a major part of a good team, but not as a go to scorer.
 

KSBGopher said:
Tell me how he is so useful that he averages 28 mins and puts up only 10 points (including non-conference) last year?
Click to expand...

You are right you should be the coach, Tubby must not get it.

Blake is one of the elite shooters in the country and best in Goph's history.

Why would you knock his10ppg when:

Nolen 6.7
Devoe 9.4
Rodney 4.2
Mbakwe -
Iverson 5.0
 

KSBGopher said:
Surely you should try harder. Take a peak at the stats. The last ten games of the year last year Hoff was unimpressive at best. Why does every Gopher fan love him? Don't just criticize but offer some kind of reason for enjoying his play so much. Is he a J.J. Redick? No. What is he? Tell me how he is so useful that he averages 28 mins and puts up only 10 points (including non-conference) last year?
Click to expand...

He's the smartest player on the floor, he's by far the biggest 3 point threat (and your comments notwithstanding, has proven repeatedly that he can do it with a defender right in his face), he understands what Tubby is trying to do on offense better than anyone, he is a superb passer, he is an excellent rebounding guard, he doesn't get into foul trouble, he is an excellent free throw shooter and his defense is better than he gets credit for. There's your 28 minutes.
 

GopherJake said:
He's the smartest player on the floor, he's by far the biggest 3 point threat (and your comments notwithstanding, has proven repeatedly that he can do it with a defender right in his face), he understands what Tubby is trying to do on offense better than anyone, he is a superb passer, he is an excellent rebounding guard, he doesn't get into foul trouble, he is an excellent free throw shooter and his defense is better than he gets credit for. There's your 28 minutes.
Click to expand...

+1

Some people get it, some people don't.
 



98VQueens said:
You are right you should be the coach, Tubby must not get it.

Blake is one of the elite shooters in the country and best in Goph's history.

Why would you knock his10ppg when:

Nolen 6.7
Devoe 9.4
Rodney 4.2
Mbakwe -
Iverson 5.0
Click to expand...

That really is lovely. Let's try it again with a little more effort. It looks pretty ridiculous as is, but let's do a percentage minutes (i.e. (Hoff's min./(player's mins))*(player's pts.) and see what happens:

Devoe: 10.2 pts
Nolen: 7.33 pts
Rodney: 10.0 pts
Mbawe: -
Iverson: 8.22 pts.

It's interesting when you put things in perspective. I love this game. Want me to do it with the other stats or no? Try harder.
 

P.S. Sorry for the hostility. I am just looking for a compelling argument to help me understand what everybody is thinking (and what I am missing)
 

His value is more than just shooting. An offense needs ball movemnt, spacing, timing, movement without the ball and an understanding of what you're trying to do. Hoff does all of those things very well. He is great at feeding the post and making the right pass to swing the ball or to get the ball to the right spot where an assist can come or a guy can make a scoring move. He oves without the ball and is a great cutter. He won't create his own shot though so his teammates need to find him and the coaches need to run plays for him. Still last year when our guards refused to feed the post he
was the only one that did it consistently.
Defensively he isn't great on the ball against an elite guard but he is always in position and plays good help D. Hoff does everything right mentally and on top of that is a dead eye shooter.
 

KSBGopher said:
That really is lovely. Let's try it again with a little more effort. It looks pretty ridiculous as is, but let's do a percentage minutes (i.e. (Hoff's min./(player's mins))*(player's pts.) and see what happens:

Devoe: 10.2 pts
Nolen: 7.33 pts
Rodney: 10.0 pts
Mbawe: -
Iverson: 8.22 pts.

It's interesting when you put things in perspective. I love this game. Want me to do it with the other stats or no? Try harder.
Click to expand...

There's more to the game than PPG. Not to mention, nobody passed him anyway with your statistical gymnastics. Try harder.
 



GopherJake said:
There's more to the game than PPG. Not to mention, nobody passed him anyway with your statistical gymnastics. Try harder.
Click to expand...

You must have as much trouble understanding gymnastics as you do mathematics. I learned this one at about the age of 5: 10.2>10.0. Think harder? Them's some fancy gymnasticums.
 

KSBGopher said:
That really is lovely. Let's try it again with a little more effort. It looks pretty ridiculous as is, but let's do a percentage minutes (i.e. (Hoff's min./(player's mins))*(player's pts.) and see what happens:

Devoe: 10.2 pts
Nolen: 7.33 pts
Rodney: 10.0 pts
Mbawe: -
Iverson: 8.22 pts.

It's interesting when you put things in perspective. I love this game. Want me to do it with the other stats or no? Try harder.
Click to expand...

Devron would have average 9.6 in Blake's percentage minutes. Should Devron have gotten some of his minutes? Cause points per minute is almost the same. Or do you think Blake might do some other things well that earned him 28 minutes a game? If you think he's strictly a shooter and a liability in every other aspect, you're not paying attention. He's earned a starting spot, and I expect to see him with a more complete offensive game after an offseason of work.
 

SonOfTheVarsity said:
Devron would have average 9.6 in Blake's percentage minutes. Should Devron have gotten some of his minutes? Cause points per minute is almost the same. Or do you think Blake might do some other things well that earned him 28 minutes a game? If you think he's strictly a shooter and a liability in every other aspect, you're not paying attention. He's earned a starting spot, and I expect to see him with a more complete offensive game after an offseason of work.
Click to expand...

You can expect all you want. And I understand that nearly every Gopher fan is going to disrespect/hate me for saying this, but I think having other guys on the court would be better overall for the gophs doing work in the B10 and the dance. It's not that he's a terrible player or that he doesn't do certain things well, it's just that other guys can compensate for what he brings when he's on the bench. He's got a great IQ for the game, but that will only get you so far. Given the PT Blake gets, he should be doing more on all levels of his game to earn a position as a starter.
 

KSBGopher said:
You can expect all you want. And I understand that nearly every Gopher fan is going to disrespect/hate me for saying this, but I think having other guys on the court would be better overall for the gophs doing work in the B10 and the dance. It's not that he's a terrible player or that he doesn't do certain things well, it's just that other guys can compensate for what he brings when he's on the bench. He's got a great IQ for the game, but that will only get you so far. Given the PT Blake gets, he should be doing more on all levels of his game to earn a position as a starter.
Click to expand...

Who?

And given that you don't think Blake has earned his position as a starter, what has Rodney done that you think he should be a starter? Because I know you like production per adjusted minute, here's Blake and Rodney's lines from last year, if they each played 30 mins:

Blake: 10.8 points, 3.9 rebounds, 2.0 assists, .97 turnovers
Rodney: 10.8 points, 4.0 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 1.3 turnovers

Pretty similar, and if forced to choose, you'd have to take Blake because of the assist/to advantage. And Rodney's numbers are really buoyed by his early production, while Blake did produce well against some Big Ten opponents (nine games in double figures, five with 16+ and three 20+ games).

Obviously, Blake has his shortcomings, but I'm just not sure why you think Rodney should start over him, given that Blake has played a lot as the "3" in a 3-guard offense (I'd start nolen, devoe, hoffarber, mbakwe, sampson).
 

KSBGopher said:
P.S. Sorry for the hostility. I am just looking for a compelling argument to help me understand what everybody is thinking (and what I am missing)
Click to expand...

Several people have given you compelling arguments but you'd rather pointlessly argue.
 

I think if you watch closely, Blake is a pretty complete basketball player. He is not the quickest guy on the team, but he makes up for it with excellent awareness on the court. He seems to be in the right place at the right time. He rebounds well for his size, plays good defense with his limited quickness and is a very good help side defender. His shot threat really opens up the middle for the bigger guys down low. Blake has earned his starting postion and deserves to start. He will be missed next season.
 


In all due respect KSB, with your first post, all you talked about was Blake being a shooter. However, he's way more than that. It's why he often plays the most minutes for Tubby and will continue to do so.
 

When Blake is on the floor things run smoother and oleboy41's post sums it up perfectly for me.
He led the team in minutes played last year and I suspect he will again this year...and for good reason.
 


KSBGopher said:
Does anyone else think not starting the Hoff might be a good idea? Not that I don't think his deep-threat is a good addition to the team, but he's a hot-cold player and, to be honest, he seems to get cold in the bigger games. I realize there is going to be a big reaction to this...but I've always thought Hoff was a little overrated as a player. That his % drops drastically against teams where it matters. The second he is covered by a defender that knows what they are doing it's pretty much over for him. That said, he will be extraordinarily useful off the bench: he will force a defensive change and at least respect for the deep-threat. But can we afford to play him all that much in conference games? It's early in the season, but we have talent. If Devoe heals up, should we think of not playing Hoff as much as we did last season?

My starting 5:

Nolen
Devoe
Rodney
Mbakwe
Iverson
Click to expand...

Here are a few words from me: one of the main reasons that Tubby does that is because he likes to score a ton of points and win the game within the 1st 10 minutes. I have seen him doing that over and over. To do that, you need a good shooter who is reliable and can complete this task. Blake is a very good Shooter. He also understands the defense that Tubby coaches.

Right or wrong, this is my understanding.

Also, don't worry about the starting lineup. It can change even in March. Tubby awards players who work hard in practice.

Go Gophers
 

KSBGopher said:
I am just looking for a compelling argument to help me understand what everybody is thinking (and what I am missing)
Click to expand...

From the Barn said:
Blake was the most efficient player in the country last year. Put that math in your pipe and smoke it.
http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Minnesota
Click to expand...
I'd say him being the most efficient player in the country is probably a pretty compelling argument, in addition to everything else others have said (complete player, rebounding, passing, offensive flow, etc.).

You can shoot an email over to Tubby if you'd like and tell him to pull Hoffarber out of the starting 5...I'm sure Tubby will take your "advice" into consideration. :rolleyes:
 

I like starting both Joseph and Hoffarber with Nolen substituting. They had success starting both last year when Nolen was ineligible, why change it. I also think that you have to evaluate the playing time for Hoffarber when you play the Michigan States. Against the more athletic teams he is less effective.
 

the hoff

I like a high scoring 6th man. I like Joseph off the bench as he is a combo guard. He has a quick trigger and can be instant offense. Nolen is a pure pg, and the Hoff is a dead eye shooter. I would never sit Nolen, as he is the only guard we have who can shut someone down. I would sit Rodney before Nolen, and play 3 guards first.

The Hoff does a lot of little things that people who only like dunks and great athleticism will never notice. Like setting good picks, moving without the ball, floor spacing, diving for balls.

This is similar to why we missed Travis Busch, he had a high bball iq, moxie, mental toughness, that allowed him to be in the right place against superior athletes.

We will miss Nolen and Hoff next year and it wont be all about missing his 3pt shot!
 

Agreed, Hoffarber is a smart player, a complete player. Not a great ball handler, not the quickest, but a great spot up shooter. What successful team doesn't have one of those. It is pretty common to blame a team's short comings on its best player. It's just human nature, I guess. But the Gophers are not world beaters. Blake starts in part because there is nobody better. Better athletes, maybe, guys who are quicker and jump higher. But basketball skills still count for something and Blake has pretty good skills.
 

This thread is an example of why I frequent this place less & less. I understand that Blake has limitations, but anyone who can't see that his value is more than just as a 3-point shooter either isn't paying attention and/or is completely clueless. Too many people here just looking for a reaction. Sorry, I couldn't help myself, I took the bait. Enough said.
 

SelectionSunday said:
This thread is an example of why I frequent this place less & less. I understand that Blake has some limitations, but anyone who can't see that his value is more than just as a 3-point shooter either isn't paying attention and/or is completely clueless. Too many people here just looking for a reaction. Sorry, I couldn't help myself, I took the bait. Enough said.
Click to expand...
Haha, love it SS. I unfortunately took the bait too...we should know better!

It's sad, but when posters look for a reaction like KSB, too many people bite and it encourages them, myself included...
 

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