High School Talent in Minnesota

[Bob_Loblaw]

I agree with you - the Minneapolis and St. Paul schools are the ones letting down the Gophers. Out of our biggest cities - add Rochester, Mankato, Duluth, St. Cloud etc we get very few players.

I don't know how many of the EP, Wayzata, CDH, etc players are from the Minneapolis/St. Paul school districts, but it seems like the majority of in-state players are from the South Suburban, Lake Conference, and Suburban East.

CJ Ham from the Vikings is a player from Duluth that went to Augustana, but your point is correct.

His point is absolutely incorrect. Every time this situation comes up, people get a chip on their shoulder regarding the out state kids.

The Twin Cities metro area produces a disproportionate number of our best football players in comparison to other cities., it seems so strange to not include the entire metro area. Suburban and private schools are really good in every single city (in most sports), they have the resources and large schools. It's not that complicated.

2020 - 8 of 11 of the players are from the metro (6 are actually from Minneapolis/Saint Paul proper). Of the three of them that are not from the metro, two of them are pretty fringe (Big Lake and Buffalo school districts have exploded because they are essentially suburbs now, but to avoid debating this point, we can call them "out state").

2019 - 10 of 13 of the players from the metro area (6 from Mpls/St. Paul proper).

2018 - 12 of 13 top players are from the metro area (4 from Mpls/St. Paul proper).

2017 - 9 of 12 top players are from the metro area (7 from Mpls/St. Paul proper).

Population of MN = 5.577 million
Population of MPLS: 413,651
Populatio of Saint Paul: 302,398
Combined MPLS/Saint Paul proper: 716,049
Twin Cities metro area population: 3.600 million

Roughly 13% of the state's population lives in Minneapolis or Saint Paul proper.
Roughly 64.5% of the state's population lives in the Twin Cities metro area.

The metro is certainly kicking out their "fair share" of D1 football players, specifically the two main cities.


For a point of reference, check WI. Less than 1/2 of their best recruits are from the Milwaukee metro, and only 1 of their top 10 recruits in 2017-2020 is from Milwaukee proper.

Per capita, the Twin Cities metro area is putting out way more D1 football players than the Milwaukee metro area (and it's not even close to compare MPLS or Saint Paul to Milwaukee proper). They just have way more out-state D1 athletes. It's because they have more decent-sized towns where iron sharpens iron and creates better football programs.

 

[HoustonTXGopher]

Its "underrated" because we don't like it. The elite athletes are stolen away from football by hockey at a young age. Add the best 20 hockey players to the pool and it's pretty substantial.

You can try to compare MN with other states of the same size and it doesn't matter. HS hockey has god-like status like nowhere else. Minnesota will never gain be able to produce elite talent in football. Never again--unless hockey goes away.

You can keep going in circles on "underrating" and "DII" and "North Dakota", but the answer is VERY clear. Mom and dad look at hockey as their meal ticket, and football would get in the way of that.

Some of this might be true, but I have never thought the same type of hockey athlete translates to the football field. My guess is that only a 20-30 percent of elite hockey players abilities transfers to football. I just don't take much stock in your premise.

 

[oldauggie]

Some of this might be true, but I have never thought the same type of hockey athlete translates to the football field. My guess is that only a 20-30 percent of elite hockey players abilities transfers to football. I just don't take much stock in your premise.

You are certainly knowledgeable but Dustin Byfuglien is 100%. Yes he is from MN and would have looked good on the football field in Maroon and Gold. There are some others but he is 6 ft 5 inch, 260 lb Hockey player. I heard he has a home in/on Minnetonka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp1ilrSsOeM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dustin_Byfuglien

 

[btowngopher]

I don't buy the premise. There's no reason why Iowa or Iowa St. should be able to "scour the state" of Iowa any better than Minnesota, or Northwestern, or even Alabama or USC. Things like geographic distance aren't the prohibitive constraints they once were before the advent of cheap and easy air travel.

It's two staffs sifting through fewer instate players. How does that not make it easier than one staff sifting through a larger pool of players?

 

[btowngopher]

If 4-6 are offered by P5 schools, there are 4-6. Recruiters will find talent wherever it is. Kids also have the opportunity to go to summer camps and demonstrate their ability. Some kids will develop beyond what was expected of them as high school players, but that doesn't necessarily mean recruiters missed on them if no one thought they would develop into a P5 player.

As for Iowa, why is it difficult to believe that they produce more P5 players per capita? Football is a higher priority in many states. I'm guessing no one would question that Minnesota produces more high school hockey talent and no one in Iowa would say they are even with us in hockey and that they just need to find the talented hockey players in their state.

I could only find data for 2016, but there were 20 kids in the NFL from MN high schools vs 14 for Iowa. 9 of the 20 from MN did not play for FBS schools. Only 4 of 14 from Iowa failed to play for a FBS team (9 of the 10 played for Iowa). Small sample size, but I think it suggests that the talent in MN is being missed much more often than it is in Iowa. And if a kid can develop into an NFL caliber player and doesn't get an offer, then yes, recruiters absolutely did miss on him. Just because every team misses on a player doesn't mean that should be dismissed as "how could we possibly have known". Iowa regularly is finding these kids and offering them scholarships. Minnesota does not. It's not difficult to believe that Iowa produces more player per capita, but twice as many as MN is producing despite the 2 million person disadvantage? That's pretty hard to believe. The NFL player coming out of each state suggests that MN actually has more talent (maybe not per capita, but that's not the argument).

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Some of this might be true, but I have never thought the same type of hockey athlete translates to the football field. My guess is that only a 20-30 percent of elite hockey players abilities transfers to football. I just don't take much stock in your premise.

What skills to football players possess that are not possessed by hockey players?

I get the issue with size, but most of those big boys weren't going to be playing hockey anyways. The tiny guys wouldn't have ever been D1 football players, but every year, there is a large group of 6'3" - 6'4" 200 - 210 lbs athletes who are explosive athletes that go the hockey route.

It's hard not to imagine that a good number of those guys couldn't have been D1 football players.

 

[PMWinSTP]

What skills to football players possess that are not possessed by hockey players?

I get the issue with size, but most of those big boys weren't going to be playing hockey anyways. The tiny guys wouldn't have ever been D1 football players, but every year, there is a large group of 6'3" - 6'4" 200 - 210 lbs athletes who are explosive athletes that go the hockey route.

It's hard not to imagine that a good number of those guys couldn't have been D1 football players.

Look no further than JJ Watt.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

What skills to football players possess that are not possessed by hockey players?

I get the issue with size, but most of those big boys weren't going to be playing hockey anyways. The tiny guys wouldn't have ever been D1 football players, but every year, there is a large group of 6'3" - 6'4" 200 - 210 lbs athletes who are explosive athletes that go the hockey route.

It's hard not to imagine that a good number of those guys couldn't have been D1 football players.

I think that some people (not necessarily you, but some people), just assume that because player X is really good at one sport, then he would be really good at another sport. That's not always the case.

some athletes just have an affinity for a certain sport. Call it instincts, or innate ability, but whatever "it" is, some kids just have "it" when they step on a football field, or an ice rink. but, "it" doesn't necessarily carry over to another sport. those hockey instincts may be specific to the sport.

I've seen kids who are just natural talents at hockey, but average at other sports. or vice-versa

and some of this has to do with the specialization factor. in some cases,

the kids who play hockey year-round are good because they play hockey year-round. if they were splitting time between hockey and another sport, they might not be as good at either sport.

So - I just don't think you can assume that star hockey player X would also be star Football player X. Kids with D1 talent in more than one sport are pretty rare.

 

[HoustonTXGopher]

What skills to football players possess that are not possessed by hockey players?

I get the issue with size, but most of those big boys weren't going to be playing hockey anyways. The tiny guys wouldn't have ever been D1 football players, but every year, there is a large group of 6'3" - 6'4" 200 - 210 lbs athletes who are explosive athletes that go the hockey route.

It's hard not to imagine that a good number of those guys couldn't have been D1 football players.

Speed, speed and more speed. Those 6'3" 210 pound athlete is probably not blessed with Division I football speed.

I would like to know which hockey players you think would have excelled on the football field? I assume you can come up with 10-15 Minnesota high school hockey players that could translate at an elite level to the football field.

 

[bemidjigopher]

I think that some people (not necessarily you, but some people), just assume that because player X is really good at one sport, then he would be really good at another sport. That's not always the case.

some athletes just have an affinity for a certain sport. Call it instincts, or innate ability, but whatever "it" is, some kids just have "it" when they step on a football field, or an ice rink. but, "it" doesn't necessarily carry over to another sport. those hockey instincts may be specific to the sport.

I've seen kids who are just natural talents at hockey, but average at other sports. or vice-versa

and some of this has to do with the specialization factor. in some cases,

the kids who play hockey year-round are good because they play hockey year-round. if they were splitting time between hockey and another sport, they might not be as good at either sport.

So - I just don't think you can assume that star hockey player X would also be star Football player X. Kids with D1 talent in more than one sport are pretty rare.

Ever seen John Wall throw a baseball lol

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[PMWinSTP]

Speed, speed and more speed. Those 6'3" 210 pound athlete is probably not blessed with Division I football speed.

I would like to know which hockey players you think would have excelled on the football field? I assume you can come up with 10-15 Minnesota high school hockey players that could translate at an elite level to the football field.

Here's a few who did. Way back...Mariucci actually played both at the U. Gino Guyer, Anders Lee, and Paul Martin were all-state FB players. Joe Dziedzic was Metro FB player of the year in 1989 and Mr. Hockey in 1990. Jack Sadek's dad and grandfather played FB at the U, he played until high school (QB) but decided to concentrate on hockey.

 

[PMWinSTP]

I think that some people (not necessarily you, but some people), just assume that because player X is really good at one sport, then he would be really good at another sport. That's not always the case.

some athletes just have an affinity for a certain sport. Call it instincts, or innate ability, but whatever "it" is, some kids just have "it" when they step on a football field, or an ice rink. but, "it" doesn't necessarily carry over to another sport. those hockey instincts may be specific to the sport.

I've seen kids who are just natural talents at hockey, but average at other sports. or vice-versa

and some of this has to do with the specialization factor. in some cases,

the kids who play hockey year-round are good because they play hockey year-round. if they were splitting time between hockey and another sport, they might not be as good at either sport.

So - I just don't think you can assume that star hockey player X would also be star Football player X. Kids with D1 talent in more than one sport are pretty rare.

D1 multi-sport talent exists more than you think, so I would not call it rare. Playing both FB and hockey at college level would be extremely challenging given the schedules, but that does not mean it is rare that level of talent combo exists. Baseball/Football is the most likely and common.

 

[btowngopher]

What skills to football players possess that are not possessed by hockey players?

I get the issue with size, but most of those big boys weren't going to be playing hockey anyways. The tiny guys wouldn't have ever been D1 football players, but every year, there is a large group of 6'3" - 6'4" 200 - 210 lbs athletes who are explosive athletes that go the hockey route.

It's hard not to imagine that a good number of those guys couldn't have been D1 football players.

Besides running, throwing, catching, kicking, and tackling?

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

Here's a few who did. Way back...Mariucci actually played both at the U. Gino Guyer, Anders Lee, and Paul Martin were all-state FB players. Joe Dziedzic was Metro FB player of the year in 1989 and Mr. Hockey in 1990. Jack Sadek's dad and grandfather played FB at the U, he played until high school (QB) but decided to concentrate on hockey.

Carter, Jenke, also Buetow (I think).

 

[bemidjigopher]

Here's a few who did. Way back...Mariucci actually played both at the U. Gino Guyer, Anders Lee, and Paul Martin were all-state FB players. Joe Dziedzic was Metro FB player of the year in 1989 and Mr. Hockey in 1990. Jack Sadek's dad and grandfather played FB at the U, he played until high school (QB) but decided to concentrate on hockey.

Mark Alt and Ryan McDonaugh were qbs at Cretin. Alt had an Iowa offer. Joey Miller won a prep bowl against McDonaugh for Wayzata as a qb.

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[Bob_Loblaw]

Besides running, throwing, catching, kicking, and tackling?

Is this really an argument?

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Mark Alt and Ryan McDonaugh were qbs at Cretin. Alt had an Iowa offer. Joey Miller won a prep bowl against McDonaugh for Wayzata as a qb.

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I knew the Okposo family really well growing up and Kyle might have been as good of a football player as he was a hockey player.

There is zero doubt in my mind that he would have played D1 football. It's not difficult to imagine looking at him.

 

[nsmike]

The best football/hockey player I remember was George Pelawa. He chose to play hockey in college signing with North Dakota. Unfortunately he died in a car accident early in his freshman year.

 

[dlw4gophers]

I knew the Okposo family really well growing up and Kyle might have been as good of a football player as he was a hockey player.

There is zero doubt in my mind that he would have played D1 football. It's not difficult to imagine looking at him.

So he might have gotten 15 games with the U before he quit.

 

[btowngopher]

Is this really an argument?

Yeah it is. There's little evidence that we are losing a large amount of D1 football players to hockey. I know of zero D1 hockey players in recent history that played any other D1 sport, I know of zero former college hockey players that went on to play NFL football. Most hockey players are like 6' 185 pounds, many are smaller. I don't know why we should assume these great hockey players could be great football players when there has been very little evidence to suggest that the skills translate. We've seen it plenty with baseball and basketball players.

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

Yeah it is. There's little evidence that we are losing a large amount of D1 football players to hockey. I know of zero D1 hockey players in recent history that played any other D1 sport, I know of zero former college hockey players that went on to play NFL football. Most hockey players are like 6' 185 pounds, many are smaller. I don't know why we should assume these great hockey players could be great football players when there has been very little evidence to suggest that the skills translate. We've seen it plenty with baseball and basketball players.

I just mentioned 3 that played hockey at the U and played in the NFL.

 

[dpodoll68]

I just mentioned 3 that played hockey at the U and played in the NFL.

Were you refencing Brad Buetow? I don't see anything about him playing football at all, let alone in the NFL.

Also, do you have any examples more recent than the Jimmy Carter administration?

 

[highwayman]

Yeah it is. There's little evidence that we are losing a large amount of D1 football players to hockey. I know of zero D1 hockey players in recent history that played any other D1 sport, I know of zero former college hockey players that went on to play NFL football. Most hockey players are like 6' 185 pounds, many are smaller. I don't know why we should assume these great hockey players could be great football players when there has been very little evidence to suggest that the skills translate. We've seen it plenty with baseball and basketball players.

There's no evidence because they didn't play football. Most college football players "athletic build" is just what you say. Football players are required to bulk up when they are playing...football.

Eliminate hockey in MN and you might pick up 10-20 more high caliber football players. Simple math.

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

Were you refencing Brad Buetow? I don't see anything about him playing football at all, let alone in the NFL.

Also, do you have any examples more recent than the Jimmy Carter administration?

His twin brother Bart. He did say zero.

 

[dpodoll68]

His twin brother Bart. He did say zero.

Thanks. It's an accurate statement, just pointing out that it hasn't happened in a very long time, indicating that something fundamental has changed to make it an implausible scenario in the present day.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Were you refencing Brad Buetow? I don't see anything about him playing football at all, let alone in the NFL.

Also, do you have any examples more recent than the Jimmy Carter administration?

btowngopher did a pivot by throwing in NFL. I think Brad actually played three sports at the U.

 

[FireDaveLee]

Thanks. It's an accurate statement, just pointing out that it hasn't happened in a very long time, indicating that something fundamental has changed to make it an implausible scenario in the present day.

Something has changed & I think it mostly has to do with hockey. A lot of sports have become specialization at a young age, but hockey seems to have more of it than any other sport. I think that's the crux of the statement about Minnesota & hockey being somewhat responsible for the production of football players; it's hard to know for sure because so many kids are giving up on football for hockey at a younger age. In addition, hockey has different routes for kids to accelerate their development in terms of leagues. If a kid heads off to the USHL, they're pretty much giving up their options regarding other sports. Of course, that's pretty late in the stage of the game; I think it beings at a much younger age.

I don't think the number of kids would be a huge change, but there are definitely some kids. I definitely think Anders Lee could have played Big Ten football.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

And, to be fair, coaches are pushing kids to specialize. Every coach wants his players to play their sport 24/7. I knew a football coach who was openly telling his players to skip other summer programs - including telling kids don't play Legion Baseball. Baseball coach found out and he was pi**ed.

With Hockey, you have the added wrinkle of kids going outside of the high school system to play in Junior Leagues or the Developmental programs. I know a kid who showed talent as a goalie in Junior High. His dad immediately got him into a developmental program, so the kid never played High school hockey within his local school district - went right to a developmental program. Now, the kid has a D1 Scholarship offer. great for him, but his local High School program lost out on a chance to have a player who might have made a big difference.

And - the kicker - this same kid was a QB in youth-league Football,and showed a lot of ability. But once Dad decided the kid was on his way to the NHL, he never picked up a football again. so, it's coaches and parents who contribute to the specialization issue.

 

[HoustonTXGopher]

And, to be fair, coaches are pushing kids to specialize. Every coach wants his players to play their sport 24/7. I knew a football coach who was openly telling his players to skip other summer programs - including telling kids don't play Legion Baseball. Baseball coach found out and he was pi**ed.

With Hockey, you have the added wrinkle of kids going outside of the high school system to play in Junior Leagues or the Developmental programs. I know a kid who showed talent as a goalie in Junior High. His dad immediately got him into a developmental program, so the kid never played High school hockey within his local school district - went right to a developmental program. Now, the kid has a D1 Scholarship offer. great for him, but his local High School program lost out on a chance to have a player who might have made a big difference.

And - the kicker - this same kid was a QB in youth-league Football,and showed a lot of ability. But once Dad decided the kid was on his way to the NHL, he never picked up a football again. so, it's coaches and parents who contribute to the specialization issue.

Although many kids specialize at a certain age, many don't! Many of the best athletes in Texas play football and then move right on to basketball and then most likely track & field. Obviously we don't have much by the way of hockey programs in Texas, so that is a different animal. My Godson plays football, basketball and golf and was all district in all three sports. To your point though, he will probably drop football and concentrate more specifically on golf.