Greder: If #Gophers don't bounce back, Mark Coyle will have hard questions to answer on future with Ben Johnson.

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bmb5270 said:
I normally don't believe it serves a purpose to fire a college coach mid season but I can easily see this team being 0-10 in the Big Ten by the end of January.
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People often say things like that but I doubt that will happen. If Johnson's 2023 team and Pitino's 2016 team could win 2 regular season games, I don't know why this team couldn't. You have to go back to the 1999-2000 season to find a winless team (Northwestern) in conference. A few teams have won only 1 conference game this century.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
People often say things like that but I doubt that will happen. If Johnson's 2023 team and Pitino's 2016 team could win 2 regular season games, I don't know why this team couldn't. You have to go back to the 1999-2000 season to find a winless team (Northwestern) in conference. A few teams have won only 1 conference game this century.
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. Ben played on that team!!!
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
People often say things like that but I doubt that will happen. If Johnson's 2023 team and Pitino's 2016 team could win 2 regular season games, I don't know why this team couldn't. You have to go back to the 1999-2000 season to find a winless team (Northwestern) in conference. A few teams have won only 1 conference game this century.
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Ben was on that team, so if it happens at least he'll be used to it.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
People often say things like that but I doubt that will happen. If Johnson's 2023 team and Pitino's 2016 team could win 2 regular season games, I don't know why this team couldn't. You have to go back to the 1999-2000 season to find a winless team (Northwestern) in conference. A few teams have won only 1 conference game this century.
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We're holding on to Johnson because we might get two B1G wins??

THAT'S the upside???
 




OK, the pitchfork crowd is out in full force. I get that MN has lost its first 2 Big Ten games and hasn't looked very good so far in non-conf. I would argue that this does not justify a CBJ firing either mid-season, or at the end of the season.*. None of the following listed below are Ben's fault.

--Expecting MN to win regularly with no NIL available (2020, the Univ. did not embrace it, turned their nose up) is not realistic. Historically we've relied on catching lightning in a bottle or cheating the system, as we've done historically as the only way to field a great team.
--With revenue sharing coming next year, MN will have a much more favorable position as a landing site for transfers and recruits. The program can be built up and highly competitive overnight with CBJ or another coach. Having tasked CBJ to build a team with limited money just isn't realistic. A coach has to be judged on a level NIL playing field with other P5 conferences.
--With a class of Payne, Ola-Joseph, Carrington, Christie, Hawkins, is it CBJ's fault that they left MN? With Payne, he got coached up, and then went with God's plan and took the money at Texas A&M. Christie got coached up, played his way into the lineup, and turned pro as 46th (?) pick, making $1M/yr that MN didn't have. Would have been a very interesting rotation had they $tuck.
--For the most part this year, the incoming transfers have underperformed. Is it CBJ's system, or are they just not as great as hoped?
--It is not a just move to fire a coach that has only dealt with a handicapped, changing system at MN. As the revenue sharing starts next year, if MN fires him, a new coach inherits all the benefits of money that CBJ did not have. Before the payments were allowed, Tubby exposed the handicap with the facilities at MN.

MN now has beautiful facilities, (yes The Barn is iconic), can "wow" recruits as an urban campus, and next year will have money to buy the players away from conferences in a less favorable position--The Big Ten, SEC, Big12 will get the top players, while other conferences will slowly die. (ie. ACC, BIGEast). It is ultimately up to the University to spend the money on the programs it values most...

*This depends on how they play as this season progresses. An undermanned team that competes hard is ok in my book until we build the talent up with money coming in 2025.
Its ok if I get blasted sticking up for CBJ. I just want to see the coach have tools to win. MN will have what it takes, and then if the Gophers can't compete, by logic you would assume its a coaching/talent evaluation issue. You can't say, "I just want to win. Look at our record(s). Coach controls everything." I don't think its that easy to find teams with less NIL than MN bb that have done appreciably better in P5. Leave that to the experts. I could be wrong. Just a fan doing opinion.
 

SplitDecision said:
OK, the pitchfork crowd is out in full force. I get that MN has lost its first 2 Big Ten games and hasn't looked very good so far in non-conf. I would argue that this does not justify a CBJ firing either mid-season, or at the end of the season.*. None of the following listed below are Ben's fault.

--Expecting MN to win regularly with no NIL available (2020, the Univ. did not embrace it, turned their nose up) is not realistic. Historically we've relied on catching lightning in a bottle or cheating the system, as we've done historically as the only way to field a great team.
--With revenue sharing coming next year, MN will have a much more favorable position as a landing site for transfers and recruits. The program can be built up and highly competitive overnight with CBJ or another coach. Having tasked CBJ to build a team with limited money just isn't realistic. A coach has to be judged on a level NIL playing field with other P5 conferences.
--With a class of Payne, Ola-Joseph, Carrington, Christie, Hawkins, is it CBJ's fault that they left MN? With Payne, he got coached up, and then went with God's plan and took the money at Texas A&M. Christie got coached up, played his way into the lineup, and turned pro as 46th (?) pick, making $1M/yr that MN didn't have. Would have been a very interesting rotation had they $tuck.
--For the most part this year, the incoming transfers have underperformed. Is it CBJ's system, or are they just not as great as hoped?
--It is not a just move to fire a coach that has only dealt with a handicapped, changing system at MN. As the revenue sharing starts next year, if MN fires him, a new coach inherits all the benefits of money that CBJ did not have. Before the payments were allowed, Tubby exposed the handicap with the facilities at MN.

MN now has beautiful facilities, (yes The Barn is iconic), can "wow" recruits as an urban campus, and next year will have money to buy the players away from conferences in a less favorable position--The Big Ten, SEC, Big12 will get the top players, while other conferences will slowly die. (ie. ACC, BIGEast). It is ultimately up to the University to spend the money on the programs it values most...

*This depends on how they play as this season progresses. An undermanned team that competes hard is ok in my book until we build the talent up with money coming in 2025.
Its ok if I get blasted sticking up for CBJ. I just want to see the coach have tools to win. MN will have what it takes, and then if the Gophers can't compete, by logic you would assume its a coaching/talent evaluation issue. You can't say, "I just want to win. Look at our record(s). Coach controls everything." I don't think its that easy to find teams with less NIL than MN bb that have done appreciably better in P5. Leave that to the experts. I could be wrong. Just a fan doing opinion.
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Here's my disappointment with Ben. I recognize the resources he may not have and I can grant them. However, regardless of one's roster, you can still run an efficient offense and defense. You may still lose because you don't have the talent, but you won't lose because you aren't prepared or because you are not executing fundamental basketball.
Ben's current team is undisciplined, inefficient, and fundamentally unsound. Anyone watching the games can see this.
Ben's record is worse than any previous Gopher coach. All of this is objective fact. Ben has been given a long enough opportunity to show that he can run an efficient system. His time has run out. I wish him well. He seems like a nice guy. I hope he has invested well and he finds something else to do after he is terminated as coach of the Gophers.
 



I saw a news story on the YMCA of the North 6-14 All City Tournament. Those kids standing around looking at the basket as an opponent scores caused me to have a Fan PTSD flashback to the end of the UMN-Indiana game.

Collegiate level athletes standing around looking like lost and confused 6, 7, 8, or 9 year-olds should be a fireable offense for any coach regardless of recruitment or facility obstacles because no one, especially the coach, is leading them and giving them direction.

Ben looking pensive, with his arms crossed on the sidelines is the equivalent of Richard Pitino sitting on the bench look at the back of his tie during timeouts: they are signals that both are disconnected and hopeless.
 

SplitDecision said:
OK, the pitchfork crowd is out in full force. I get that MN has lost its first 2 Big Ten games and hasn't looked very good so far in non-conf. I would argue that this does not justify a CBJ firing either mid-season, or at the end of the season.*. None of the following listed below are Ben's fault.

--Expecting MN to win regularly with no NIL available (2020, the Univ. did not embrace it, turned their nose up) is not realistic. Historically we've relied on catching lightning in a bottle or cheating the system, as we've done historically as the only way to field a great team.
--With revenue sharing coming next year, MN will have a much more favorable position as a landing site for transfers and recruits. The program can be built up and highly competitive overnight with CBJ or another coach. Having tasked CBJ to build a team with limited money just isn't realistic. A coach has to be judged on a level NIL playing field with other P5 conferences.
--With a class of Payne, Ola-Joseph, Carrington, Christie, Hawkins, is it CBJ's fault that they left MN? With Payne, he got coached up, and then went with God's plan and took the money at Texas A&M. Christie got coached up, played his way into the lineup, and turned pro as 46th (?) pick, making $1M/yr that MN didn't have. Would have been a very interesting rotation had they $tuck.
--For the most part this year, the incoming transfers have underperformed. Is it CBJ's system, or are they just not as great as hoped?
--It is not a just move to fire a coach that has only dealt with a handicapped, changing system at MN. As the revenue sharing starts next year, if MN fires him, a new coach inherits all the benefits of money that CBJ did not have. Before the payments were allowed, Tubby exposed the handicap with the facilities at MN.

MN now has beautiful facilities, (yes The Barn is iconic), can "wow" recruits as an urban campus, and next year will have money to buy the players away from conferences in a less favorable position--The Big Ten, SEC, Big12 will get the top players, while other conferences will slowly die. (ie. ACC, BIGEast). It is ultimately up to the University to spend the money on the programs it values most...

*This depends on how they play as this season progresses. An undermanned team that competes hard is ok in my book until we build the talent up with money coming in 2025.
Its ok if I get blasted sticking up for CBJ. I just want to see the coach have tools to win. MN will have what it takes, and then if the Gophers can't compete, by logic you would assume its a coaching/talent evaluation issue. You can't say, "I just want to win. Look at our record(s). Coach controls everything." I don't think its that easy to find teams with less NIL than MN bb that have done appreciably better in P5. Leave that to the experts. I could be wrong. Just a fan doing opinion.
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Let's say that CBJ is fired, what "level" is his next head coaching job at? Evidently you see "something" in how he runs a program that an A.D. would be able to identify. There's plenty of openings, is there another G5 AD that would hire Ben in the future?
AD: "We like you Ben and you're going to get the financial support that you didn't have at Minnesota." We are going to attain great heights.
I'm not sure that G5 AD exists.
 

Rex said:
Let's say that CBJ is fired, what "level" is his next head coaching job at? Evidently you see "something" in how he runs a program that an A.D. would be able to identify. There's plenty of openings, is there another G5 AD that would hire Ben in the future?
AD: "We like you Ben and you're going to get the financial support that you didn't have at Minnesota." We are going to attain great heights.
I'm not sure that G5 AD exists.
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Where Ben goes from here is not really the biggest worry. What would motivate another AD to look at Ben is not a UMN MBB program issue.

What is the UMN MBB issue is that we need a coach who knows how to make the tough calls on the bench, make the tough in-game decisions and have the team well-prepared for the game. I don't think Ben checks any of those boxes based on what we have seen these past seasons and at the beginning of this season. His recruiting was supposed to be good, but that hasn't compensated for his decisions on the court.
 
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USAF said:
LOL.

There is no scenario in which Johnson continues as coach.
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Surely there is an alternate universe where the Gophers run the table the rest of the season and win the B1G/NC.

That is NOT our version of the universe, however.
 



Ewert86PC said:
Where Ben goes from here is not really the biggest worry. What would motivate another AD to look at Ben is not a UMN MBB program issue.

What is the UMN MBB issue is that we need a coach who knows how to make the tough calls on the bench, make the tough in-game decisions and have the team well-prepared for the game. I don't think Ben checks any of those boxes based on what we have seen these past seasons and at the beginning of this season. His recruiting was supposed to be good, but that hasn't compensated for his decisions on the court.
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He's not a good recruiter. Pitino brought in more talent than Johnson and Pitino didn't get enough talent either.

Christie is the crown jewel of his 4 years of recruiting and he got one year out of him. Willis, Hawkins, Payne are his other hits. Look at some of the players Pitino had in here:

Mason, Murphy, McBrayer, Oturu, Robbins, Carr, Curry, Mashburn, Coffey

Last year was the only year Ben had average Big Ten talent.
 


bga1 said:
He's not a good recruiter. Pitino brought in more talent than Johnson and Pitino didn't get enough talent either.

Christie is the crown jewel of his 4 years of recruiting and he got one year out of him. Willis, Hawkins, Payne are his other hits. Look at some of the players Pitino had in here:

Mason, Murphy, McBrayer, Oturu, Robbins, Carr, Curry, Mashburn, Coffey

Last year was the only year Ben had average Big Ten talent.
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Is Ben considered a "good recruiter" because he connects to AAU coaches, and High School coaches in non-Metro Minnesota?

That just crossed my mind and I was curious what GH might have to say
 

SplitDecision said:
*This depends on how they play as this season progresses. An undermanned team that competes hard is ok in my book until we build the talent up with money coming in 2025.
Its ok if I get blasted sticking up for CBJ. I just want to see the coach have tools to win. MN will have what it takes, and then if the Gophers can't compete, by logic you would assume its a coaching/talent evaluation issue. You can't say, "I just want to win. Look at our record(s). Coach controls everything." I don't think its that easy to find teams with less NIL than MN bb that have done appreciably better in P5. Leave that to the experts. I could be wrong. Just a fan doing opinion.
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I am not going to "blast" or mock you for defending the coach. I don't care for web-based gang ridicule and I do have some empathy for the guy. For a guy who had no head coaching experience and almost zero supporters at the time of his hire, he was put in a tough situation here.

Would he have done better with more NIL funding? Probably, but I don't know how much better.

Next season player funding should be much better but I think very few have much trust in him going forward and the substantial majority would rather have a coach who is a better bet to succeed with that increased player funding. You really can't blame people for feeling this way after what is likely going to be five outright losing seasons in the last six years and possibly 3 last place conference finishes in four years. Someone posted here recently that Ben would be fired at the end of this season, we would hire another coach, and he'd be fired in six years. That might happen but you still have to try to improve your program.

I really do hope that the team can pull off a tremendous improvement for the rest of the season and finish close to .500 overall. Maybe then Johnson could find another head coaching position somewhere in college basketball.
 
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FinnGopher said:
Here's my disappointment with Ben. I recognize the resources he may not have and I can grant them. However, regardless of one's roster, you can still run an efficient offense and defense. You may still lose because you don't have the talent, but you won't lose because you aren't prepared or because you are not executing fundamental basketball.
Ben's current team is undisciplined, inefficient, and fundamentally unsound. Anyone watching the games can see this.
Ben's record is worse than any previous Gopher coach. All of this is objective fact. Ben has been given a long enough opportunity to show that he can run an efficient system. His time has run out. I wish him well. He seems like a nice guy. I hope he has invested well and he finds something else to do after he is terminated as coach of the Gophers.
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Rex said:
Let's say that CBJ is fired, what "level" is his next head coaching job at? Evidently you see "something" in how he runs a program that an A.D. would be able to identify. There's plenty of openings, is there another G5 AD that would hire Ben in the future?
AD: "We like you Ben and you're going to get the financial support that you didn't have at Minnesota." We are going to attain great heights.
I'm not sure that G5 AD exists.
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Only time will tell, and there is a lot of time between now and March for things to reveal themselves.
 

SplitDecision said:
Only time will tell, and there is a lot of time between now and March for things to reveal themselves.
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Time has spoken. How long has Ben been the head-coach of the Gophers? This is his 4th season. What is it that you are pinning your hopes on? The proof has already been provided. It's time to come to grips with the facts.
 

SplitDecision said:
OK, the pitchfork crowd is out in full force. I get that MN has lost its first 2 Big Ten games and hasn't looked very good so far in non-conf. I would argue that this does not justify a CBJ firing either mid-season, or at the end of the season.*. None of the following listed below are Ben's fault.

--Expecting MN to win regularly with no NIL available (2020, the Univ. did not embrace it, turned their nose up) is not realistic. Historically we've relied on catching lightning in a bottle or cheating the system, as we've done historically as the only way to field a great team.
--With revenue sharing coming next year, MN will have a much more favorable position as a landing site for transfers and recruits. The program can be built up and highly competitive overnight with CBJ or another coach. Having tasked CBJ to build a team with limited money just isn't realistic. A coach has to be judged on a level NIL playing field with other P5 conferences.
--With a class of Payne, Ola-Joseph, Carrington, Christie, Hawkins, is it CBJ's fault that they left MN? With Payne, he got coached up, and then went with God's plan and took the money at Texas A&M. Christie got coached up, played his way into the lineup, and turned pro as 46th (?) pick, making $1M/yr that MN didn't have. Would have been a very interesting rotation had they $tuck.
--For the most part this year, the incoming transfers have underperformed. Is it CBJ's system, or are they just not as great as hoped?
--It is not a just move to fire a coach that has only dealt with a handicapped, changing system at MN. As the revenue sharing starts next year, if MN fires him, a new coach inherits all the benefits of money that CBJ did not have. Before the payments were allowed, Tubby exposed the handicap with the facilities at MN.

MN now has beautiful facilities, (yes The Barn is iconic), can "wow" recruits as an urban campus, and next year will have money to buy the players away from conferences in a less favorable position--The Big Ten, SEC, Big12 will get the top players, while other conferences will slowly die. (ie. ACC, BIGEast). It is ultimately up to the University to spend the money on the programs it values most...

*This depends on how they play as this season progresses. An undermanned team that competes hard is ok in my book until we build the talent up with money coming in 2025.
Its ok if I get blasted sticking up for CBJ. I just want to see the coach have tools to win. MN will have what it takes, and then if the Gophers can't compete, by logic you would assume its a coaching/talent evaluation issue. You can't say, "I just want to win. Look at our record(s). Coach controls everything." I don't think its that easy to find teams with less NIL than MN bb that have done appreciably better in P5. Leave that to the experts. I could be wrong. Just a fan doing opinion.
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Ben is currently 15-46 and will be ~17-62 in the B1G after four seasons. There is simply zero excuse for a coach that's 17-62 to remain employed, no matter the challenges he faces. Period. And since the 2-18 + or - for this season is inevitable, there's no reason to drag it out until the end of the season either.
 
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Rex said:
Let's say that CBJ is fired, what "level" is his next head coaching job at? Evidently you see "something" in how he runs a program that an A.D. would be able to identify. There's plenty of openings, is there another G5 AD that would hire Ben in the future?
AD: "We like you Ben and you're going to get the financial support that you didn't have at Minnesota." We are going to attain great heights.
I'm not sure that G5 AD exists.
Click to expand...
Of course it doesn't. Ben will collect his $$ for a year or two and then be an assistant at Northern Iowa or wherever Travis Steele is now.
 


bga1 said:
He's not a good recruiter. Pitino brought in more talent than Johnson and Pitino didn't get enough talent either.

Christie is the crown jewel of his 4 years of recruiting and he got one year out of him. Willis, Hawkins, Payne are his other hits. Look at some of the players Pitino had in here:

Mason, Murphy, McBrayer, Oturu, Robbins, Carr, Curry, Mashburn, Coffey

Last year was the only year Ben had average Big Ten talent.
Click to expand...
And just where did we finish with this supposed average Big Ten talent?
 

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