Gophers ranked #61 by Scout? Sheesh!

The services seem to disagree on the quality of Nelson and Hayes.

When it comes to Nelson, he committed so early no other schools could get offers in. Eventually other schools offered, but if he didn't commit so early he would have garnered more attention, imo.

Anyways, I'm happy with this class. Some solid offensive lineman who probably won't see the field until R-So or R-Jr years (except maybe for Hayes) and it seems like the skill positions aren't too bad. I'm still worried about our defense but after the improvement throughout the season and Stoudermire coming back maybe they will surprise some people. If we can get McDonald or another big play WR that would be huge.
 

Kill came in with a reputation for not being a great salesmen; this shouldn't be shocking to anyone.

I am wondering. Why do you believe he has a reputation of not being a great salesmen?
 

In regards to the general sentiment that a coaches first year is their best in recruiting- in my novice opinion- his personality and coaching style doesn’t seem to fit with this philosophy. He is known as an old school good coach who “coaches up” his kids. He’s not flashy and hip like Brew, who was perhaps easier for recruits to relate to. Kill gets his recruits from results, unlike Ole Wink & Finger pointin’ Brew with his catch phrases and twitter posts. I may be way off the mark here but I don't feel nervous at all about our ranking for that reason.
 

Great Question 4four4!

I am wondering. Why do you believe he has a reputation of not being a great salesmen?

I also found this statement worthy of further explanation. I expect there is a great deal of variation in what people would define as the characteristics of a "great salesmen".
 

I used the term "salesman" instead of recruiter, since I think the two are separate categories.

When Kill was hired, there was a good deal of talk (fans and otherwise) that he had no experience recruiting top players, and that even in the MAC, his classes weren't terribly impressive by NIU standards. Now, that's not to say he can't recruit, because there's more to recruiting than the sales pitch (identifying talent, getting players to fit scheme, etc).

That said, if you look at this class, we aren't doing a great job in the head-to-head battles, even with programs that we would consider at our level (Iowa State, Purdue, etc). I'm certainly open to the argument that stars don't matter, but one would assume that if we offer a player, it's because we want him to join the squad. Too often we've had to go with a backup plan because we've lost a player to a non-helmet school (I expect to lose most of them to the helmet schools). We're never going to bat 100%, but I'd like to see it happen less in the future.
 


Thanks for the responses! Your insight gives all of us fans a better slant on the recruiting angles. Hopefully, Coach Kill's philosophy on not needing 5-star recruits to win should be interesting to watch this season. Go Gophers!!!!!
 

O the 2008 class.... Proof that recruiting rankings do not mean a thing.

It doesn't prove any such thing. No one ever said that recruit rankings were an absolute guarantee of football success. My grandmother smoked Pall Malls and lived to be 85. That doesn't prove that cigarettes are not bad for you.

To prove that recruit rankings don't mean a thing, it's not good enough to show that one school recruited well but didn't have success on the football field. It is not enough to show that one school did not have highly regarded recruits, yet still won football games. You have to look at all the schools, compare their recruit rankings with how their team did on the football field, and show that there was no correlation between recruit rankings and winning games. It turns out there is a correlation, teams with highly regarded recruiting classes tend to win more games.
 

No one ever said it was impossible to have a highly regarded recruit class coming off a one-win season. But it isn't a reasonable expectation. The reaction around the football world to Minnesota's 2008 recruiting class was amazement. Had having such a highly regarded recruit class been so commonplace, it would have been greeted with a yawn, rather than with amazement. Also, subsequent recruiting classes dropped off significantly, one good recruiting class is not going to turn around a team.
 

The 2008 class was solid, but the problem was that in hindsight it was nowhere near a top 20 class. Major gaps include attrition and academic risks, no offensive lineman, and no pass rushers. We probably don't have 10 career sacks from that entire class.

The bigger issue was that the 2009 class was a disaster. I count 3 guys out of 20 (E. Olson, Hageman, Wills) that will probably end up as multi-year starters. The myth that continues to live in the minds of some was that Brewster was a good/great recruiter. One good class doesn't make you a great recruiter.
 



MN turn around will happen when we have 4th and 5th year Seniors dominating our line up...this is done by recruiting kids that have upside, speed and talent but may need a couple more years to mature...I could care less about how good a kid is a FR...I want to make sure we still have that kid and he developed into a great Junior and Senior. No other way to build a winner at MN...recruit quality kids that fit our system, can make it the classroom and want to work hard and be great football players when they are Juniors and Seniors...then graduate and repeat. We aint MI or AL (60 years ago maybe...but not now) so we need to think long term.

Eventually we will sprinkle in some 4 of 5 star talent...until then, we need to build bigger, stronger, faster and smarter football players over 2-3 years.

I like what Kill is doing and I am 100% confident he has a plan and it will succeed.
 

seems tOSU has had top class after top class and yet that didn't make them a great team last year, just say'n
 

The myth that continues to live in the minds of some was that Brewster was a good/great recruiter. One good class doesn't make you a great recruiter.

It's not a myth. He was a great recruiter. His problems were in player development and retention. People tend to conflate the two and besmirch the former because of the latter.

You are missing several guys from the 2009 class, by the way. Carter, Garin, KGM, Campion, Orseske, and Jacques are all guys who have or likely will start games over multiple seasons. This is also neglecting to mention Michel, who appeared to be a starter-quality player before suffering career-ending injury, which even the most diehard Brewster basher couldn't hold against him. Nine multi-year starters out of 20 (10/20 if Michel is included) is a pretty good batting average. This, compounded with the 2008 class, are the foundation for a pretty good team. The problem is the classes around them. The 2007 class was poor, and the 2010 class was pretty much a full-on disaster.
 

MN turn around will happen when we have 4th and 5th year Seniors dominating our line up...this is done by recruiting kids that have upside, speed and talent but may need a couple more years to mature...I could care less about how good a kid is a FR...I want to make sure we still have that kid and he developed into a great Junior and Senior. No other way to build a winner at MN...recruit quality kids that fit our system, can make it the classroom and want to work hard and be great football players when they are Juniors and Seniors...then graduate and repeat. We aint MI or AL (60 years ago maybe...but not now) so we need to think long term.

Eventually we will sprinkle in some 4 of 5 star talent...until then, we need to build bigger, stronger, faster and smarter football players over 2-3 years.

I like what Kill is doing and I am 100% confident he has a plan and it will succeed.


+1
 



It's not a myth. He was a great recruiter. His problems were in player development and retention. People tend to conflate the two and besmirch the former because of the latter.
You are missing several guys from the 2009 class, by the way. Carter, Garin, KGM, Campion, Orseske, and Jacques are all guys who have or likely will start games over multiple seasons. This is also neglecting to mention Michel, who appeared to be a starter-quality player before suffering career-ending injury, which even the most diehard Brewster basher couldn't hold against him. Nine multi-year starters out of 20 (10/20 if Michel is included) is a pretty good batting average. This, compounded with the 2008 class, are the foundation for a pretty good team. The problem is the classes around them. The 2007 class was poor, and the 2010 class was pretty much a full-on disaster.

So if the talent was so unbelievable, and it was just the player development that was lacking, why can't the ultimate developer of talent, Jerry Kill, get the most out of these guys? Let me guess, they don't fit his "system." Give me a break....

If the definition of a "great recruiter" is someone who can get a Rivals 3-star prospect to sign on a dotted line Feb. 1, then Brewster was fine. If the requirements actually include things like getting players who don't flunk out, who can stay in the program for 4-5 years, and players that have the potential to improve over time, he falls way short. The fact is the 2009 class was not good. You completely pulled my statement out of context, a multi-year starter is someone who is #1 on the depth chart for 2+ years and is consistently starting football games. None of the guys you listed started last year (except Orseske, who we all hope won't be starting this year), and none will this year.

And a final point, I'll take the 2010 class and the potential we still have with some of the young players (ie Edwards, Gjere, Kirkwood, Epping, Lenkiewicz, Manuel, Perry) over 2009 any day...
 

So if the talent was so unbelievable, and it was just the player development that was lacking, why can't the ultimate developer of talent, Jerry Kill, get the most out of these guys? Let me guess, they don't fit his "system." Give me a break....

It's pretty tough to develop talent if they never made it to campus, left after 1-2 years, or are probably currently sitting in a jail cell somewhere.

If the definition of a "great recruiter" is someone who can get a Rivals 3-star prospect to sign on a dotted line Feb. 1, then Brewster was fine.

Yes, exactly. That is the definition of recruiting. The definition of successful recruiting is seeking after players who are highly-rated and/or highly in-demand. It is inarguable that Brewster was successful in getting large quantities of highly sought-after players to come to Minnesota, especially by the standards of said school. He was far more successful at this than Mason or Kill. Both are/were much better at virtually every other aspect of coaching a college football team.

If the requirements actually include things like getting players who don't flunk out, who can stay in the program for 4-5 years, and players that have the potential to improve over time, he falls way short.

None of these things have anything to do with recruiting. Again, these are issues of player development and retention, as I have already stated.

The fact is the 2009 class was not good.

Incorrect. It was the 2nd-best Minnesota class in the Rivals era. Out of a grouping of 11 items, you'd be pretty hard-pressed to find anyone who would call the 2nd-best item "not good".

You completely pulled my statement out of context, a multi-year starter is someone who is #1 on the depth chart for 2+ years and is consistently starting football games. None of the guys you listed started last year (except Orseske, who we all hope won't be starting this year), and none will this year.

Incorrect. The definition of a multi-year starter is someone who starts games in more than one season. Carter and Orseske both fit the bill. The rest of the list is speculative, but your entire 2010 list is speculative, as exactly zero of those players are multi-year starters. Along with Olson and Wills, that currently makes 4 from the 2009 class. Where I come from, 4>0. And while we're on the subject, only 11 players (out of 26) from the 2010 class are even on the current roster. In the 2009 class, 11 out of 20 (counting Michel) are on the roster. Again, where I come from, 11/20 is better than 11/26, especially considering that the former has had one more full year for players to leave the team in one fashion or another. The 2009 class was not great, but certainly good by Minnesota standards. The 2010 class was easily the worst of Brewster's tenure (even worse than the quasi-Brewster class of 2007), and worse than even most Mason classes.

Again, I continue to be amazed that people want to attempt to rip on Brewster for the one thing that he was actually good at. You could rip him for virtually every other facet of coaching and/or college football program management, but you try to rip him for the one thing he excelled at. It's simply mind-boggling.
 

So in your twisted world, a coach could sign 25 5-star players, none of them make it to camp in August, but that person was a "great recruiter." Got it, that explains a lot...:p

My evaluation of the 2009 class is based on what they've produced on the field, not how many stars a rube assigned them 3 years ago. Since the 2010 class just finished up their sophomore or redshirt freshmen seasons, your criteria really aren't that compelling to anyone. Besides, after Perry, Lenkiewicz, Epping, Edwards, Gjere, Kirkwood, Manuel, and Vereen all make a start this year or next, I'll be up at least 8-4. Unfortunately for you, you're stuck at 4...
 

My evaluation of the 2009 class is based on what they've produced on the field, not how many stars a rube assigned them 3 years ago.

Neither is mine. Please point out where I've mentioned anything about their rankings or offer lists. I was going strictly by your criteria (multi-year starters).

Since the 2010 class just finished up their sophomore or redshirt freshmen seasons, your criteria really aren't that compelling to anyone.

Again, it was your criteria (multi-year starter), not mine.

Besides, after Perry, Lenkiewicz, Epping, Edwards, Gjere, Kirkwood, Manuel, and Vereen all make a start this year or next, I'll be up at least 8-4. Unfortunately for you, you're stuck at 4...

The discussion isn't what will end up being the better class. The discussion is what is (i.e., currently) the better class. As of right now, it's not even a contest.
 

If a star player shows up to the program, sleep walks his way through college and gets kicked out, that was a tremendous waste of money. Every recruiter/coach at the U needs to understand they recruit for academics, athleticism and character. Failure in any of these areas costs the U huge dollars. Our coaches need to be great recruiters and great coaches. Brewster failed as a recruiter because he failed to build commitment to the U. Too many players had attitude problems, failed to deliver on the field, and failed to commit to the U after they arrived.
 

Wow, so your point is that a junior/redshirt soph class has produced more than a soph/redshirt freshmen class. I'll go one further, next year's seniors have produced more than this year's freshmen. Since players typically get better as they age from 18 to 23, it's only about 95% of the time an older class will have produced more than a younger one.

I'm sure glad GopherHole is here for this kind of insight...
 

Wow, so your point is that a junior/redshirt soph class has produced more than a soph/redshirt freshmen class. I'll go one further, next year's seniors have produced more than this year's freshmen. Since players typically get better as they age from 18 to 23, it's only about 95% of the time an older class will have produced more than a younger one.

I'm sure glad GopherHole is here for this kind of insight...

For at least the third time, this was your criteria. Don't set up the criteria if you don't like the answers it will produce.

By the way, it's not "95% of the time" that a younger class has markedly more attrition than an older one.
 


I'm not advocating that 2010 was a great class, it's lost almost half the players already. The point I've made that you fail to comprehend is that a class that has 8 players that are multi-year starters is superior to one that has 3 and a punter who shanks it every other time he's on the field.
 

The point I've made that you fail to comprehend is that a class that has 8 players that are multi-year starters is superior to one that has 3 and a punter who shanks it every other time he's on the field.

But it doesn't have 8 multi-year starters. It has zero.
 

It will soon enough, but 2008 will always have 3. Rinse, wash, repeat... Let me put it in simple terms that you can understand. During the 2011 football season, the 2009 class had a total of 1 player (E Olson) start a football game on offense or defense, 2 if you count Orseske. The 2010 class had 6 players start a football game (Epping, Gjere, Lenkiewicz, Lewis, Perry, Vereen).
 

Let me put it in simple terms that you can understand.

There is a great deal of irony in you condescending as though you are smarter than me.

For at least the 4th time now, it was your criteria. You are making predictions and taking them to be facts. I am dealing in the actual facts as they currently stand. There is no guarantee that any of the players you mentioned will ever start another game at Minnesota. There is a vast discrepancy between speculation and fact, a distinction lost to many on this board - present company apparently included.
 

Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
The fact is the 2009 class was not good.


Incorrect. It was the 2nd-best Minnesota class in the Rivals era. Out of a grouping of 11 items, you'd be pretty hard-pressed to find anyone who would call the 2nd-best item "not good".

if i have 11 items, ex: balloons, and none of them inflate, the 2nd-best is 'not good'.
 


seems tOSU has had top class after top class and yet that didn't make them a great team last year, just say'n

I would take any Ohio State class in the last 10-15 years over this current group of recruits that Kill is bringing in. Yeah they had a down year but if you want to stack the players and their potential up against each other I would much rather try to win with the guys OSU is working with year in and year out.

You don't need to get a bunch of 4 star guys to win but it sure seems to make life a little easier for those schools that consistently have high rated classes and for some crazy reason also seem to consistently finish in the top 25.
 

The 2008 class was solid, but the problem was that in hindsight it was nowhere near a top 20 class. Major gaps include attrition and academic risks, no offensive lineman, and no pass rushers. We probably don't have 10 career sacks from that entire class.
The bigger issue was that the 2009 class was a disaster. I count 3 guys out of 20 (E. Olson, Hageman, Wills) that will probably end up as multi-year starters. The myth that continues to live in the minds of some was that Brewster was a good/great recruiter. One good class doesn't make you a great recruiter.


We already have 25 sacks from that class, and Wilhite, Rallis, Cooper, and possibly Stoudermire have a chance to pad those stats.
 

It's not a myth. He was a great recruiter. His problems were in player development and retention. People tend to conflate the two and besmirch the former because of the latter.
As you've probably already noticed, half of the board will simply never agree to this position, or even consider its possibility.
 




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