Gophers football: Changes to Pro Day leaves small-school prospects in limbo

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Pompous Elitist said:
No press coverage of Pro Day, little fan access to practices, now a news story on how he irritated local players/coaches. Don't get me wrong, these are not close to major issues but they are interesting quirks. He has every right to do it but previous coaches haven't.

Like every coach if he wins nobody will care. If he turns out mediocre teams the little annoyances and quirks add up.

I still don't understand the point of limiting a pro day. He "saw it from the Pro side" but what does that even mean?
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I think what Fleck means is that he wants the focus on Gopher players and if the NFL has 20+ guys to evaluate, it makes it more difficult to assess the Gopher players.
I attended the 2016 pro day. There were easily 30 outside players, 90% of which had no chance of even getting a mini-camp tryout. All players, including Gopher players, ran a 40 yard dash. If the non-Gopher players didn't meet certain time standards for their position, they weren't allowed to continue. That eliminated 80+% of them. The problem was, it took almost 90 minutes to run the 40s and another 30 minutes to determine who made the cut. Meanwhile, Gopher players were standing around waiting to do their other tests. It was a circus.
If the Gophers only invited players that the NFL requested from the area, it wouldn't be an issue.
Frankly, it looks like it was a Good Will event for small schools. Stupid.
 

Are the NFL teams asking to see all the Gopher players in attendance? I mean, if it's all about time. I'm not sure why it takes 90 minutes to run 40 guys on an electronic track. Or 30minutes to cross reference the times. They can't have someone checking YES or NO after each run? Is Benny Hill running the show?

I agree there ought to be some criteria for qualification rather than just showing up. Sponsored by a coach, etc. do you REALLY think this guy has the ability to play in the NFL?
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I mean, if it's all about time. I'm not sure why it takes 90 minutes to run 40 guys on an electronic track. Or 30minutes to cross reference the times. They can't have someone checking YES or NO after each run? Is Benny Hill running the show?
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Ever watch the NFL Combine? They aren't just running all at the same time. It's one at a time. 90 minutes is a little over 2 minutes per player. Considering they probably do multiple runs, that's actually going through at a decent pace.

And 30 minutes to cross-reference is absolutely necessary. Just because they time electronically doesn't mean something can't go wrong. That's why there's people hand-timing too. Then you compare and figure out the proper time for the player. Do that times 40 players and it takes time.
 

joshvanklomp said:
Ever watch the NFL Combine? They aren't just running all at the same time. It's one at a time. 90 minutes is a little over 2 minutes per player. Considering they probably do multiple runs, that's actually going through at a decent pace.

And 30 minutes to cross-reference is absolutely necessary. Just because they time electronically doesn't mean something can't go wrong. That's why there's people hand-timing too. Then you compare and figure out the proper time for the player. Do that times 40 players and it takes time.
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Yes....I've watched the combine. It doesn't take nearly that long. Efficiently run those 40 guys should be able to go through twice in 45-60 minutes. Some guys have to go through their pre-run rituals, prayers, tributes to Jobu. Not efficiently run, well. Or maybe there was some exaggeration.

If we're
 

I had to back and check any yep, you're telling me the hand-timers are given weight? I mean, I like to argue for the sake of arguing...but if a scout is arguing he hand-timed a guy at 4.4. Is there a Top 10 hand-timed list?
 


Pompous Elitist said:
I had to back and check any yep, you're telling me the hand-timers are given weight? I mean, I like to argue for the sake of arguing...but if a scout is arguing he hand-timed a guy at 4.4. Is there a Top 10 hand-timed list?
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It's not 100 percent electronic-timed. I'd guess Pro Days aren't either.

The combine places a man at the six-yard line, and he triggers the timer at first movement. Lasers take the times from the 10-, 20- and 40-yard lines for the combine’s official times. It’s important to get the starter as close as possible to the player at the beginning of the run, hence the six-yard-line, rather than have him stand at the finish line.

“If you think about it in terms of biomechanics, you see a guy, your brain tells your finger to push the button,” Foster said. “Well if you’re 40 yards away, it’s going to take that much longer—and we’re talking about hundredths and thousandths of seconds—but as you know that can mean the difference in a game.”

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/02/23/40-yard-dash-times-nfl-combine-history

They cross-check to make sure the guy started the timer when he should have.
 

The combine uses fully automated, manual start/laser finish, and hand-timed. I don't know why, I suppose it's a bit of a game and a nod to history and old farts.

It's also true that last two methods give faster times than full auto, which is why I suppose many/most schools don't want to use full auto even though these days with haptic-touch sensors and laser finish it is ridiculously easy to do. There is a reason some schools have "fast tracks". If the NFL is content to allow pro days with less than fully automated tracks then I can't see any school volunteering to do so as it will make their athletes look slower.

The combine measures actual heights, too. KJ Maye is 5' 10, er 8.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
The combine uses fully automated, manual start/laser finish, and hand-timed. I don't know why, I suppose it's a bit of a game and a nod to history and old farts.

It's also true that last two methods give faster times than full auto, which is why I suppose many/most schools don't want to use full auto even though these days with haptic-touch sensors and laser finish it is ridiculously easy to do. There is a reason some schools have "fast tracks". If the NFL is content to allow pro days with less than fully automated tracks then I can't see any school volunteering to do so as it will make their athletes look slower.

The combine measures actual heights, too. KJ Maye is 5' 10, er 8.
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At the pro day, I believe it was electronic finish as well as hand timers at 10, 20, & 40. I'm sure the hand timers are viewed as a accuracy check and in case of laser failure. The scouts all compare their times on timed tests to get the most accurate.
And part of the reason it takes so long is that athletes take as much time as if they making a 20 foot putt at the Masters. I don't blame them.
 

KillerGopherFan said:
At the pro day, I believe it was electronic finish as well as hand timers at 10, 20, & 40. I'm sure the hand timers are viewed as a accuracy check and in case of laser failure. The scouts all compare their times on timed tests to get the most accurate.
And part of the reason it takes so long is that athletes take as much time as if they making a 20 foot putt at the Masters. I don't blame them.
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It all seems a bit of a show, doesn't it? In this day and age there is zero reason for not having a fully automated timing system, other than inertia. For example, historical records are a big deal in all sports but in NFL, MLB, NBA they are a pillar of discussion. If, all of a sudden the combine and NFL Network started showing the fully automated times it would make current and future participants seem slow. Athletic accuracy isn't as important as the entertainment value which, let's face it, is what the NFL has fully morphed into. They can't have DBs all of a sudden running 4.55 -4.60. NFL fans would blow their tops. It would throw our petty arguments into chaos.

As far as the spectre of the system failing...I can't see how it would fail other than the electronic gremlins that plague every system from time to time. It would be an electronic timer linked to two switches.
 



Im not sure why this is even an argument. The U Pro Day is put on by the U, funded by the U, use the U facilities, and is meant to showcase the abilities of the U football players. That is it. Should a kid from the metro that went to Wisconsin or Iowa be able to attend the U pro day? Would that make any sense?
 

I have trouble believing Gopher players are losing out on exposure / opportunity with other guys there. If they're good enough the NFL guys will focus on them.
 

This is all about recruiting players to the U of M, both scholarship players and walk-ons. The message being sent to high school players is "If you think you've got a shot at making it to the NFL then you've got to play for the U of M and not any other Minnesota schools". Going to a Div II school like UMD or Mankato or a MIAC school isn't going to get you an invite to an NFL Pro Day.
 

KillerGopherFan said:
I think what Fleck means is that he wants the focus on Gopher players and if the NFL has 20+ guys to evaluate, it makes it more difficult to assess the Gopher players.
I attended the 2016 pro day. There were easily 30 outside players, 90% of which had no chance of even getting a mini-camp tryout. All players, including Gopher players, ran a 40 yard dash. If the non-Gopher players didn't meet certain time standards for their position, they weren't allowed to continue. That eliminated 80+% of them. The problem was, it took almost 90 minutes to run the 40s and another 30 minutes to determine who made the cut. Meanwhile, Gopher players were standing around waiting to do their other tests. It was a circus.
If the Gophers only invited players that the NFL requested from the area, it wouldn't be an issue.
Frankly, it looks like it was a Good Will event for small schools. Stupid.
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This is so spot on. Totally agree. Coach Fleck's only concern should be about getting his kids (Gopher players) as much exposure as possible. I am going to go out on a limb and say it isn't in his job duties to appease schools like Bemidji State, UMD and Winona State. His only concern is the kids wearing Gopher Jerseys on Saturdays. Quite frankly, I agree whole-heartedly with him.
 



Sounds like Thielen didn't attend a pro day. He was invited to the Vikings rookie camp and the rest is history. What a great story, and an incredible guy and role model.


Undrafted players seem to fit into two categories: Good players from the local universities that are being given a chance and guys who are lottery tickets. Scouts scour the country looking for shot-in-the-dark players that have a particular element to their game that might translate – many times players who didn’t perform all that well in college.

“A lot of times these guys aren’t recommended by their college staffs,” Paton said. “Whether they don’t like them or character or they just don’t think they can play. Maybe someone takes a chance on them, they get better coaching or whatever. That’s why our college scouting staff does their due diligence and really grinds.

“A guy might not play well on tape but he runs well or you see a redeeming trait that’s worth bringing him in, even though he may not be a great player.”

Every team holds a rookie minicamp after the draft. Drafted players and between 30 and 40 undrafted free agents who were not signed as part of the “controlled chaos” period. Paton said the Vikings like to invite mostly local players to rookie camp. That’s how they found Thielen.

http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2016/10/adam-thielen-long-journey-undrafted-free-agents/
 

e.bigelow said:
This is so spot on. Totally agree. Coach Fleck's only concern should be about getting his kids (Gopher players) as much exposure as possible. I am going to go out on a limb and say it isn't in his job duties to appease schools like Bemidji State, UMD and Winona State. His only concern is the kids wearing Gopher Jerseys on Saturdays. Quite frankly, I agree whole-heartedly with him.
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Ok, but how is allowing other MN school players limiting NFL access to Gopher players. You're suggesting the scouts will ignore the Gopher players?
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Something doesn't add up - 25 teams traveled to Winona State to see Jack Nelson. Fleck says he'll allow any player in that NFL teams express interest in. Apparently the team still weren't aware they needed to wire Fleck and save themselves a road trip.

Seems like an unnecessary shot to the foot, again. Closing Pro Day to the press, closing practices, the martyr complex about the pay cut. He didn't really explain why having a few prospects join Pro Day is a major problem. Perhaps it irritates the scouts to have to watch long-shots but I find that hard to believe. Watch cat videos until they finish their drills.

Maybe it's just me, but the U of M is partially funded by all the taxpayers of MN. It's not a private school. If a MN kid, in the judgment of their coach has the chops to take a shot I'd like them to have that shot. It's painless and doesn't cost anyone a thing.
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I am with you here. I just don't get the logic behind this change. It hurts no one to have a few extra players at a pro-day, but could mean the world to some small school kids from the state of Minnesota. It is the University OF MINNESOTA after all. It smells a bit of D1-elitism, which is unfortunate.
 

WarriorGopher said:
I am with you here. I just don't get the logic behind this change. It hurts no one to have a few extra players at a pro-day, but could mean the world to some small school kids from the state of Minnesota. It is the University OF MINNESOTA after all. It smells a bit of D1-elitism, which is unfortunate.
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Oh well. It's not our problem.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Ok, but how is allowing other MN school players limiting NFL access to Gopher players. You're suggesting the scouts will ignore the Gopher players?
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I am suggesting why waste everyone's time? Gopher pro-day should be for Gopher Players. Why should we (as Gopher Fans), or Coach Fleck for that matter, care at all that Winona State, St. Cloud State or others are miffed at this? If the scouts request they have a kid there, I am sure Fleck will accommodate. Have you attended a pro-day here? Like the other poster I quoted, I have gone and watched and it is a cluster F#$% for the first two hours. But I guess in our everyone gets a trophy society, we need to allow everyone to come. We'll just have to disagree.
 

e.bigelow said:
I am suggesting why waste everyone's time? Gopher pro-day should be for Gopher Players. Why should we (as Gopher Fans), or Coach Fleck for that matter, care at all that Winona State, St. Cloud State or others are miffed at this? If the scouts request they have a kid there, I am sure Fleck will accommodate. Have you attended a pro-day here? Like the other poster I quoted, I have gone and watched and it is a cluster F#$% for the first two hours. But I guess in our everyone gets a trophy society, we need to allow everyone to come. We'll just have to disagree.
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Why not be "i got mine **** you all" about everything?
 

e.bigelow said:
I am suggesting why waste everyone's time? Gopher pro-day should be for Gopher Players. Why should we (as Gopher Fans), or Coach Fleck for that matter, care at all that Winona State, St. Cloud State or others are miffed at this? If the scouts request they have a kid there, I am sure Fleck will accommodate. Have you attended a pro-day here? Like the other poster I quoted, I have gone and watched and it is a cluster F#$% for the first two hours. But I guess in our everyone gets a trophy society, we need to allow everyone to come. We'll just have to disagree.
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I think you're completely missing the point of a pro day, tryouts, camps. So yeah, we will agree to disagree.
 

GopherPlaya said:
Oh well. It's not our problem.
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I'm confused by your comment. It would seem that hurting relationships with other football people in your home state should be a concern to the football coach of the only D-1 school. People talk. And this is elitist and stupid-at best.
 


e.bigelow said:
I am suggesting why waste everyone's time? Gopher pro-day should be for Gopher Players. Why should we (as Gopher Fans), or Coach Fleck for that matter, care at all that Winona State, St. Cloud State or others are miffed at this? If the scouts request they have a kid there, I am sure Fleck will accommodate. Have you attended a pro-day here? Like the other poster I quoted, I have gone and watched and it is a cluster F#$% for the first two hours. But I guess in our everyone gets a trophy society, we need to allow everyone to come. We'll just have to disagree.
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My thoughts are this... I think it is completely ridiculous that the U didn't open up the pro day to the small schools. By percentages, majority of the UMD, SCSU, Winona, Mankato, Concordia St. Paul, St. Thomas, etc kids that have a chance to play at the next level are Minnesota kids. The more success the kids from Minnesota have both as college and professional players will indirectly improve high school football in the state of Minnesota. Not just anyone can show up to a pro-day, you have been to be invited. It is a very small gesture the U could do and it would benefit football across the state of Minnesota.
 

WarriorGopher said:
I'm confused by your comment. It would seem that hurting relationships with other football people in your home state should be a concern to the football coach of the only D-1 school. People talk. And this is elitist and stupid-at best.
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We aren't the only school in the country to hold pro days for only our athletes. If players are on NFL teams radar, then they will find them. Who are we hurting relationships with exactly?
 

I really don't have a strong opinion about this. I do wish he would have let the teams send their kids this year then told them this would be the last year. To make the change that late didn't give the other schools a chance to make other arrangements.

Regardless, people are assuming Fleck made this decision in a vacuum. He may have already been told by scouts that they didn't like coming to this type of pro day with all these other kids from small schools that had close to zero chance of making a mini-camp, let alone a team. He might have been told that he is hurting the chances of his players by having other teams like that at the event.

Either way, I don't think the U having a great or bad relationship with the DII and DIII teams in this state really makes a bit of difference. If they're losing kids to those schools there are bigger problems, and it's not like they've been getting kids transferring up from those schools. Sure, I'd love everyone to get along, but I doubt this affects the U one bit.
 

Livingat45north said:
This is all about recruiting players to the U of M, both scholarship players and walk-ons. The message being sent to high school players is "If you think you've got a shot at making it to the NFL then you've got to play for the U of M and not any other Minnesota schools". Going to a Div II school like UMD or Mankato or a MIAC school isn't going to get you an invite to an NFL Pro Day.
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Every kid in MN is not going to wind up at the U of M. There are always going to be a few sleepers - guys like Thielen who were late bloomers and didn't get any D1 attention, but develop into potential pro prospects.

I just don't seen any harm in letting a handful of kids attend a Pro Day at the U of M. at most, it might make the day last a little longer. Shoot, if you want, I'll stipulate that the Gopher players get to go first, and the non-Gophers have to wait until the end of the day. But, to me, not allowing those other players - after they have been allowed in the past - makes Fleck and the Gophers look a little petty.
 

DLguy said:
Im not sure why this is even an argument. The U Pro Day is put on by the U, funded by the U, use the U facilities, and is meant to showcase the abilities of the U football players. That is it. Should a kid from the metro that went to Wisconsin or Iowa be able to attend the U pro day? Would that make any sense?
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Well, someone very involved with the football program has been telling anyone that will listen that this is the State's team and that the new culture of this team will be to build bridges and support with everyone in this State.


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Spoofin said:
Well, someone very involved with the football program has been telling anyone that will listen that this is the State's team and that the new culture of this team will be to build bridges and support with everyone in this State.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yeah that must mean having D3 and D2 athletes at your pro day.
 

Lakeville Goldy said:
I really don't have a strong opinion about this. I do wish he would have let the teams send their kids this year then told them this would be the last year. To make the change that late didn't give the other schools a chance to make other arrangements.

Regardless, people are assuming Fleck made this decision in a vacuum. He may have already been told by scouts that they didn't like coming to this type of pro day with all these other kids from small schools that had close to zero chance of making a mini-camp, let alone a team. He might have been told that he is hurting the chances of his players by having other teams like that at the event.

Either way, I don't think the U having a great or bad relationship with the DII and DIII teams in this state really makes a bit of difference. If they're losing kids to those schools there are bigger problems, and it's not like they've been getting kids transferring up from those schools. Sure, I'd love everyone to get along, but I doubt this affects the U one bit.
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Agree 100%. Everyone doesn't have to like it, but it's not like we need relationships with D2 & D3 programs to become a top tier program.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Yeah that must mean having D3 and D2 athletes at your pro day.
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Clearly it doesn't mean that. Maybe there are 4-5 of us that think it could/should.


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