Gophers coach P.J. Fleck on early fourth-down decision: ‘I would do it again’..."it only cost us 3 points, it was worth it"

[RolGnav]

Don't know what to tell you if you read both those and come up with that conclusion.

Like i don't like the call and you're telling me all about how bad the call is.

Dude I know... I said so.

Wow, you must not even know what you're saying yourself. I will explain yourself to you since you need help.

"The loss was on the offensive playmakers not making plays."

The loss (yeah we just lost)

was on (You are blaming "the loss" on the offensive playmakers not making plays)

since you omitted any blame on any coaching at all, you are literally saying the coaches were fine and all the blame is on the offensive playmakers just not making plays.

So which is it? Was the loss on the offensive playmakers not making plays or the coaches making dumb game management decisions? Or both?

Score was tied in the third quarter. We go into conservative mode, we even start milking the clock with the score tied. We weren't even trying to score... we were running terrible all game. Tell me what Fleck was doing after we tied the score? Getting conservative with a lead? Fine. But in a tied game? Sorry but this was an even bigger bungle than the Bring in the Wildcat on 4th so we can some how trick them with the Kramer RUTM play. So we literally just shut down the offense... and of course eventually our defense bends and they get a score, and ohhhhh ok now we have to try to pass... which ends up in interceptions. Not a very good spot to put an average game manager at best.

 

[Seany]

Some games have a feel that whatever can go wrong will go wrong, it felt that way early in the game. When they lined up to go for it, it didn't surprise me when they failed.

Yup.

I started to get a real hinky feeling straight off the bat when we lined up with no Ibrahim in the backfield, no word on him, no idea as to why he wasn't in there or whether/when he might be in, and then our very first play gets blown right up leaving Trey Potts with a five yard loss, Purdue's defense swarming and very actively leading the way to the highly disjointed 3 and out on our first possession of the game. And then of course Purdue gets the ball and we can't stop their rushing attack. They march it right down the field and score and at that point I'm starting to get a very sickly feeling, as things just seemed off, and we are way, way, way off the script.

And then things just started to snowball downhill in that 1st quarter, and it was when we missed that chip shot field goal that I started feeling like "F*ck, we are in real trouble here", which may be just the long suffering Gopher fan in me, that familiar feeling of dread in just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and yeah. I had a bad feeling very early on.

I fricken hate those kind of games.

 

[USAF]

Nothing is going to top that we scored a TD ... perfect pass ..... hits the guy right between the numbers.

And he doesn't catch.


Oh except, not just that, but it bounced up to the defense for an interception and touchback.

Going for it in that situation is a pretty similar f***-up by the coach as the dropped pass.
Both were costly errors.

But I'm more inclined to forgive a clear physical mistake by a player than a clear mental mistake by a coach.

 

[USAF]

Yup.

I started to get a real hinky feeling straight off the bat when we lined up with no Ibrahim in the backfield, no word on him, no idea as to why he wasn't in there or whether/when he might be in, and then our very first play gets blown right up leaving Trey Potts with a five yard loss, Purdue's defense swarming and very actively leading the way to the highly disjointed 3 and out on our first possession of the game. And then of course Purdue gets the ball and we can't stop their rushing attack. They march it right down the field and score and at that point I'm starting to get a very sickly feeling, as things just seemed off, and we are way, way, way off the script.

And then things just started to snowball downhill in that 1st quarter, and it was when we missed that chip shot field goal that I started feeling like "F*ck, we are in real trouble here", which may be just the long suffering Gopher fan in me, that familiar feeling of dread in just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and yeah. I had a bad feeling very early on.

I fricken hate those kind of games.

Had the same feeling.
But...when we got the ball back quickly to start the second half, scored to tie it up, and the defense immediately forced a 3 and out...i thought we'd take control.
Stupid me

 

[Dakota2]

Wow, you must not even know what you're saying yourself. I will explain yourself to you since you need help.

"The loss was on the offensive playmakers not making plays."

The loss (yeah we just lost)

was on (You are blaming "the loss" on the offensive playmakers not making plays)

since you omitted any blame on any coaching at all, you are literally saying the coaches were fine and all the blame is on the offensive playmakers just not making plays.

So which is it? Was the loss on the offensive playmakers not making plays or the coaches making dumb game management decisions? Or both?

Score was tied in the third quarter. We go into conservative mode, we even start milking the clock with the score tied. We weren't even trying to score... we were running terrible all game. Tell me what Fleck was doing after we tied the score? Getting conservative with a lead? Fine. But in a tied game? Sorry but this was an even bigger bungle than the Bring in the Wildcat on 4th so we can some how trick them with the Kramer RUTM play. So we literally just shut down the offense... and of course eventually our defense bends and they get a score, and ohhhhh ok now we have to try to pass... which ends up in interceptions. Not a very good spot to put an average game manager at best.

We did not bring in Kramer and the Wildcat to trick anyone. We brought it in to make two yards and a first down, something Kramer has consistently done. The line allowed penetration and it was stuffed, something we have rarely seen.

Fleck said it was a gut call. He acknowledged it was not by the book. He thought the team needed a spark. We didn't get it.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

This comment is probably less defensible than the call itself.

We have a coach who runs out the clock in every game we are tied or losing. I'm not going to rag on that strategy, but to use that strategy but also hold the opinion that it "only cost us 3 points" is idiotic.

As far as those arguing that the call didn't matter because MBS dropped a pass, there is a difference between a physical mistake and a horrendous decision. One of them is completely unavoidable. MBS did not intend to drop the call. PJ Fleck INTENDED to go for it from our own 30.

We also praise our coach because the team takes on the identity of the coach. Doesn't that also hold true the other way? Don't you think the players might have started playing a little tighter when our coach panicked with that play call?

I like PJ. I think he's a good program builder. But that was a terrible call.

 

[Great Plains Gopher]

"It only cost us three points." In a game decided by ten. NEVER take a chance at surrendering the ball on your side of the field, much less the thirty.

 

[Some guy]

"It only cost us three points." In a game decided by ten. NEVER take a chance at surrendering the ball on your side of the field, much less the thirty.

Strongly disagree with this.
And that is from someone who thought it was a dumb decision and dumb playcall

 

[MRJ]

Making that decision is one level of eff up. Defending it later on is a second level of eff up. Implying "it was just three points, so no biggie" is beyond eff up level stupidity. Totally ridiculous on so many levels.

 

[Ope3]

Here's what I don't get, early/mid 1st Q down 7-0 at own 29 and they go for it on 4th and 1.

Early in the 4th Q, tied at 10, ball near midfield (own 48) and they don't go for it on 4th and 2. Sure, an extra yard but also would have given the defense a little cushion if it had failed to stop a FG.

By that time Offense had "some" rhythm. Obviously hindsight 20/20 but seems like it would be more understandable to go for it at that point.

 

[let'sbeclear]

If anyone ever expects PJ to say he was wrong you are also waiting for the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

I don't follow Gopher football all that closely, but my general impression is that Fleck will sometimes say in general terms that a loss was on him, e.g., he didn't have the team ready to play, but he rarely, if ever, questions a specific call he made.

Also, I don't believe him when he says he'd do the same thing again. If that identical circumstance comes up in the next game at Illinois, I guarantee 100% that he will punt.

 

[tikited]

I will have to watch the play again, but it seemed like it was rushed. PJ loves taking timeouts...I would have loved one right there.

 

[Ope3]

I will have to watch the play again, but it seemed like it was rushed. PJ loves taking timeouts...I would have loved one right there.

Agreed, especially in the 1st half. Go ahead and burn one and think it over regarding going for it, the play, the personnel...all of it.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

If he had to do it over over again, considering state of blocking that day maybe have Kramer (or Tanner) pass…

 

[Gophergrandpa]

Stupid, high-risk play calling that gifts points to the opposition in a close game does more than give away three points. It has a psychological effect on the team—perhaps the same as it does on fans. It says “we’re getting “out-coached.” If it is true (per Shama) that the Gophers have lost 30 straight games in which they have been down by 10 points, it means a lot to cavalierly gift an opposing team a ten-point lead (which is what Purdue had after the FG following the turnover). I love PJ but he’s got a few blind spots about when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em.

 

[dpodoll68]

Here's what I don't get, early/mid 1st Q down 7-0 at own 29 and they go for it on 4th and 1.

Early in the 4th Q, tied at 10, ball near midfield (own 48) and they don't go for it on 4th and 2. Sure, an extra yard but also would have given the defense a little cushion if it had failed to stop a FG.

By that time Offense had "some" rhythm. Obviously hindsight 20/20 but seems like it would be more understandable to go for it at that point.

This is more or less what I was going to say as well.

P.J. is one of the most conservative coaches in the country, particularly factoring in the state of college football in 2022. He plays his own version of what village idiot Spaulding calls "walrus ball," runs the play clock close to zero on almost every play almost regardless of game situation (including when trailing in the 4th quarter), and tries to maintain a 65-70% run-to-pass ratio - again, in 2022.

And yet, despite all of this, he takes odd chances in the strangest places where the risk/reward ratio is so tilted against him, and then attempts to defend the indefensible. Let's pretend that we convert the 4th-and-1, something that is at best a 50/50 proposition in itself. And then, after we convert that coin flip, we still have to go 70 yards to score a TD, or probably 45 (at least) to get a FG. Compare our odds of scoring on that drive (probably 25-30% at best) to their odds of scoring (probably 70-80%) when gifting them the ball already inside FG range. It was just plain an insanely idiotic call all-around.

And then, as you say, we don't go for it in a much better situation later in the game, when the risk/reward calculations are tilted far more in our favor. I get the value of going off-script and doing something the other team would never expect you to do, but to go for it inside your own 30, to RUTM with a 185-lb QB (from the pistol, no less)...frankly, I'm shocked that anyone here is even attempting to defend this lunacy.

 

[Gophers1992]

This is more or less what I was going to say as well.

P.J. is one of the most conservative coaches in the country, particularly factoring in the state of college football in 2022. He plays his own version of what village idiot Spaulding calls "walrus ball," runs the play clock close to zero on almost every play almost regardless of game situation (including when trailing in the 4th quarter), and tries to maintain a 65-70% run-to-pass ratio - again, in 2022.

And yet, despite all of this, he takes odd chances in the strangest places where the risk/reward ratio is so tilted against him, and then attempts to defend the indefensible. Let's pretend that we convert the 4th-and-1, something that is at best a 50/50 proposition in itself. And then, after we convert that coin flip, we still have to go 70 yards to score a TD, or probably 45 (at least) to get a FG. Compare our odds of scoring on that drive (probably 25-30% at best) to their odds of scoring (probably 70-80%) when gifting them the ball already inside FG range. It was just plain an insanely idiotic call all-around.

And then, as you say, we don't go for it in a much better situation later in the game, when the risk/reward calculations are tilted far more in our favor. I get the value of going off-script and doing something the other team would never expect you to do, but to go for it inside your own 30, to RUTM with a 185-lb QB (from the pistol, no less)...frankly, I'm shocked that anyone here is even attempting to defend this lunacy.

Can I see the math on this?

 

[Crosby]

And ending the game with 3 timeouts still in back pocket. Not Fleck’s best game. He just wasn’t hitting on all cylinders yesterday. We all have days like that.

When would you have used those three timeouts? This board has melted down about timeouts being used too early. The way the game flowed, there really wasn't the opportunity or need to use them

 

[Ope3]

When would you have used those three timeouts? This board has melted down about timeouts being used too early. The way the game flowed, there really wasn't the opportunity or need yo use them

It's nit picking at this point as it turned out, but after Purdue's long run by Mockobee to the Gophers 2, I would have called Time Out to save clock and ensure Goal Line Stand defense was in order. At that point only chance was pretty much was to force a FG, turnover, or stop them on 4th down. Never know, especially if Purdue commits an offensive penalty.

FG would have down been down by 6 with time on the clock. Felt like in a blur it was Game Over.

 

[Crosby]

Thanks. Maybe so. But I woukd have saved them as we needed two possessions and two scores. Woukd have come in handy for our theoretical last drives. I am sure we woukd have used one in that final possession we had. Probably all of them if Tanner had not thrown that last pick.

 

[btowngopher]

Sure woulda been nice if the ref would’ve called the offsides.

 

[Ope3]

Thanks. Maybe so. But I woukd have saved them as we needed two possessions and two scores. Woukd have come in handy for our theoretical last drives. I am sure we woukd have used one in that final possession we had. Probably all of them if Tanner had not thrown that last pick.

One of my points was that maybe calling a time out to regroup would have increased the odds (albeit slightly) that they could have kept it to a FG, to keep it a 1 score game, plus they would have saved 30-40 seconds on the clock anyways if 2 scores were going to be needed.

At least Purdue scored quickly, one can argue that helped the Gophers out slightly.

 

[Ope3]

Sure woulda been nice if the ref would’ve called the offsides.

On the 4th Down in the 1st Quarter? I thought Purdue flinched, but still wasn't clear if they were in the neutral zone. The refs don't have the benefit of the line that's on TV.

 

[btowngopher]

On the 4th Down in the 1st Quarter? I thought Purdue flinched, but still wasn't clear if they were in the neutral zone. The refs don't have the benefit of the line that's on TV.

Yeah, you might be right. It was close.

 

[Six to Eight]

watching it now. Looks like Kramer plowed into the worst possible lane he could have chosen. Doesn't change the fact that it was a poor choice of play call, but there are guys out there that could have picked up a first down. Not sure what PJ sees in Kramer.

 

[btowngopher]

watching it now. Looks like Kramer plowed into the worst possible lane he could have chosen. Doesn't change the fact that it was a poor choice of play call, but there are guys out there that could have picked up a first down. Not sure what PJ sees in Kramer.

I dunno, I feel like Kramer has typically done pretty well as a wildcat qb.

 

[PMWinSTP]

I dunno, I feel like Kramer has typically done pretty well as a wildcat qb.

Compared to Green?

 

[BilldGopher]

watching it now. Looks like Kramer plowed into the worst possible lane he could have chosen. Doesn't change the fact that it was a poor choice of play call, but there are guys out there that could have picked up a first down. Not sure what PJ sees in Kramer.

This.

Kiddo insisted I rewatch the game last evening and got to see (again) Kramer had no chance. At least two Gophers linemen were pushed back at least a yard that created a wall that not even Mo could have overcome.

Have to admit that I don't think I've seen quite what unfold with our wildcat plays before. Regardless, Kramer had no shot at least going straight ahead. That was maybe 10% on him...

 

[Six to Eight]

I dunno, I feel like Kramer has typically done pretty well as a wildcat qb.

When I look at his stats, it would appear you're right. I suppose I disagree with the concept of a smallish wildcat QB that is rarely asked to do anything other than power straight into the D line. There's not much threat of throwing, making defenders miss, or really even the bulk you got with Green.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

When would you have used those three timeouts? This board has melted down about timeouts being used too early. The way the game flowed, there really wasn't the opportunity or need to use them

Wisconsin took possession after interception with 1:52 left. Maybe I’m not remembering/thinking clearly or rationally so feel free to shoot holes but with 3 timeouts, a stop, quick score, onside and field goal... Given how the day was going maybe too much to ask for.