Gophers Bench Exposed

[Bad Gopher]

People shouldn't be skittish about posting their thoughts here, rght or wrong. The points people are making in this thread are pretty valid.

The one thing I disagree with, though, is that we shouldn't have recruited Mike. He was a good get as a complementary player: skilled, tall. The extended minutes have exposed his limitations, though.

Gas and Bakary: God bless 'em, but we needed to recruit more serviceable players. At the time, Pitino said what some are saying here - there was nobody else they could have gotten. That's bull shat. You can't tell me there wasn't a big man in the upper Midwest that could be giving us better play than these well-intentioned but inadequate players. Who's playing for UND or SDSU right now? Whoever it is, they'd beat out either of our centers in a tryout. You know it; I know it; the American people know it. I've been saying this from the get go. And i don't know that Matz is going to be any better. Daniel Oturu: you're our only hope.

I strongly believe the program is headed upward, but there's no guarantee. Wasted scholarships are roster killers, and scandals are program killers. I wouldn't be surprised if this series of scandals costs us big-time recruits.

 

[LesBolstad]

Oh yeah, Hurt, he reminds of the white guy that has all the skills needed but tightens up and does not shoot or do squat when playing in the 'hood. I used to do some of that when was 19, then I realized I could play tough defense on anyone, run the floor, rebound and get physical anywhere and I got over it. I just started driving to the hole and got fouled every time. Hurt needs to toughen up.

He sort reminds me of how I play now in my old age in pickup ball. Since I cannot jump like I used to do not go hard to the rum and I constantly pass up contact and pass.

Hurt is playing 50 year old basketball and he is what? 19 years old. He needs to go in with mentality of dunking the basketball every time and play with a very hostile attitude or transfer to St. Olaf.

Ok Uncle Rico.

 

[MissouriGopher]

To be fair to Hurt, the guy he was guarding played 31 minutes and scored 0 points (0-3).

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

To be fair to Hurt, the guy he was guarding played 31 minutes and scored 0 points (0-3).

Thanks for sharing that. Hurt had a tough game with that key turnover but in general I am looking to see how the bench can improve this year because they need to be much better heading into next season.

I think Fitzgerald showed some positives and I am hoping that he can get his mojo back.

 

[cjbfbp]

It’s damn near impossible to go 10 deep. Even the elite teams rarely do.

.

He didn't say "go" 10 deep. He said "CAN go" 10 deep. To me that means having a rotation where 7 or 8 guys may get significant minutes but #9 and #10 get some minutes here and there and can play more minutes reasonably well if they have to.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Good thing our highly-paid coach is such a good recruiter, or else we would have a depth problem.

Nearly every college basketball team save maybe a couple is going to really struggle when it is missing 3 key players. Nobody has the depth to replace the loss of 2 key starters and one fringe starter/key reserve.

 

[Gopherbbdude]

Nearly every college basketball team save maybe a couple is going to really struggle when it is missing 3 key players. Nobody has the depth to replace the loss of 2 key starters and one fringe starter/key reserve.

Bingo

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[EG#9]

Indiana was missing two starters on the road on Saturday so spare me the injury/missing players excuse. This was a flat out inexcusable loss. Indiana played 8 guys on Saturday, Minnesota played 9. Indiana had 5 guys score on Saturday, Minnesota had 6. The Gophers had the two best players on the floor going in to the game in Nate Mason and Jordan Murphy...and they lost on their home court.

That said, the bench is a disaster for a team that was supposed to be a top 20 team with aspirations to contend for the B1G title and make a deep run in the NCAA tournament. It's not just the decision to use a scholarship on a guy that wasn't going to be eligible to play this year in Stockman, but it was also the decision to stick with Diedhiou for yet another year. At many schools Gaston would have been gone after his first of second season. I struggle to think of more than a handful of high majors that would have brought him back for a fourth year. Lets look at what Coach Pitino had in the Spring when any changes would have needed to be made:

All 5 starters returning
C Lynch Backup: Curry/Konate- Bakary is fine if he's literally only used as the backup against certain teams as he was last season. If a team doesn't have a legit 6'10 plus post in the game, then Bakary doesn't get off the bench.

PF Murphy Backup: Curry/Diedhiou- Ok, so Curry is the backup at two spots, that's got to be a concern as you are one injury/illness away from giving major minutes to someone you know is very limited in Konate or playing someone you know can't play at all in Diedhiou.

SF Coffey Backup: Fitzgerald/Hurt- So Fitzgerald is coming off another major knee injury and won't be able to participate fully until the Fall which gives him little time to shake the rust off of not playing in a competitive game for 2 seasons. We didn't see many glimpses from Hurt as a Freshman to be confident in him being the backup at the 3 as a Sophomore.

SG McBrayer Backup Harris- So Harris was a fairly lightly regarded recruit (though he also had a Stanford offer) as an undersized 2 guard with a reputation as a great shooter. On paper a 6'1 Freshman SG who was rated outside the top 150 recruits is the best option at either the 2/3 going in to the season.

PG Mason Backup Washington- This is literally the one position on the roster where the depth was comfortable. We had an All B1G point guard coming back and a Freshman to ~50 ish PG coming in to back him up. With Dupree and Amir also capable handling the ball and creating for others, another PG couldn't have been called anything more than a luxury.

My conclusion is that we literally could have used (needed IMHO) at least one more player 6'4 or taller with an actual skill that would make them worthy of the term role player. We could have used a defensive 2/3 that couldn't shoot, but that could spare Amir/Dupree time guarding the other teams best wing. We could have used a pure shooter at the 2, 3, or 4 position that would allowed for more court spacing for Murphy in the post or drives from Mason, Coffey, and McBrayer. We could have used another PF/C with a more refined game so that our 3 big rotation of Lynch/Murphy/Curry would have had a cushion. Obviously, we also could have used a really good player at any non-PG position who could certainly find their way to 20 plus minutes a night joining our 6 returners we had confidence in.

The toughest thing would have been getting a really talented 4 or 5 to come to Minnesota as a grad transfer. I don't think that was a realistic ask as more playing time likely could have been found at other high majors. I do think it was realistic to add a player or even two players to this roster that could have helped this year. Coach Pitino went in to a non-rebuilding year with scholarships going to a Transfer C who has to sit out, A 4th year PF/C who had not gotten off the bench in 3 previous seasons, another 4th year C who he only chose to play in very specific matchups, a Sophomore SF who attempted a total of two shots during conference play as a Freshman, and a SF who was recovering from his second major knee injury. That's 5 of his 13 scholarships going to players that you either knew were not going to help at all (Stockman, Diedhiou), were going to help a little at best (Konate), or guys who if they contributed it would have to be looked at as a bonus given their history (Hurt, Fitzgerald).

It would be one thing if Pitino gambled on this lack of depth to take a transfer (or two) that was a no doubt impact player even if that impact was just for one year, but that's not what happened.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Good post, EG. Tough love / truth hurts: as well as this staff has recruited, this hasn't been the best-managed roster. Maybe they're still managing the roster for some future year, but this is definitely a season where they could have made some hay, and we definitely needed better big-man depth. A grad transfer, if available, would've fixed a leaky boat, but the key is to have a sound boat in the first place, and I'll reassert that a 2-star center with some skill would have been preferable to a couple international projects.

If you're serious about a deep tournament run, it's good to have some historical perspective. A Final Four team would have a backup center the caliber of a Trevor Winter (Minnesota product, by the way); an Elite Eight team would have a backup center the caliber of a Bob Martin (another local product). Those kind of guys are available to this program.

 

[bga1]

Good post, EG. Tough love / truth hurts: as well as this staff has recruited, this hasn't been the best-managed roster. Maybe they're still managing the roster for some future year, but this is definitely a season where they could have made some hay, and we definitely needed better big-man depth. A grad transfer, if available, would've fixed a leaky boat, but the key is to have a sound boat in the first place, and I'll reassert that a 2-star center with some skill would have been preferable to a couple international projects.

If you're serious about a deep tournament run, it's good to have some historical perspective. A Final Four team would have a backup center the caliber of a Trevor Winter (Minnesota product, by the way); an Elite Eight team would have a backup center the caliber of a Bob Martin (another local product). Those kind of guys are available to this program.

There was no way we were getting a solid grad transfer to come here with a starting lineup of Lynch, Murphy, Coffey, McBrayer and Mason. Grad transfers come to start and be the additional key that brings a team over the top. Back when the recruiting was being done we had projected good depth with Washington (1 or 2), Curry (4 or 5), Fitzgerald (3 or 4), Hurt (3 or 4) and perhaps with a shooter in Harris incoming. Konate was there as fallback depth.

The case can easily be argued that Pitino is guilty of roster mis-management. But the big mistake was made in year 1 with the Konate and Gaston recruiting. With neither panning out and both at the same position, it became a long term problem. After this year, that excuse is gone and I expect we will see more balanced rosters going forward.

Regardless of how one views it- what has happened has been ridiculous bad luck. Nothing more.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Indiana was missing two starters on the road on Saturday so spare me the injury/missing players excuse. This was a flat out inexcusable loss. Indiana played 8 guys on Saturday, Minnesota played 9. Indiana had 5 guys score on Saturday, Minnesota had 6. The Gophers had the two best players on the floor going in to the game in Nate Mason and Jordan Murphy...and they lost on their home court.

That said, the bench is a disaster for a team that was supposed to be a top 20 team with aspirations to contend for the B1G title and make a deep run in the NCAA tournament. It's not just the decision to use a scholarship on a guy that wasn't going to be eligible to play this year in Stockman, but it was also the decision to stick with Diedhiou for yet another year. At many schools Gaston would have been gone after his first of second season. I struggle to think of more than a handful of high majors that would have brought him back for a fourth year. Lets look at what Coach Pitino had in the Spring when any changes would have needed to be made:

All 5 starters returning
C Lynch Backup: Curry/Konate- Bakary is fine if he's literally only used as the backup against certain teams as he was last season. If a team doesn't have a legit 6'10 plus post in the game, then Bakary doesn't get off the bench.

PF Murphy Backup: Curry/Diedhiou- Ok, so Curry is the backup at two spots, that's got to be a concern as you are one injury/illness away from giving major minutes to someone you know is very limited in Konate or playing someone you know can't play at all in Diedhiou.

SF Coffey Backup: Fitzgerald/Hurt- So Fitzgerald is coming off another major knee injury and won't be able to participate fully until the Fall which gives him little time to shake the rust off of not playing in a competitive game for 2 seasons. We didn't see many glimpses from Hurt as a Freshman to be confident in him being the backup at the 3 as a Sophomore.

SG McBrayer Backup Harris- So Harris was a fairly lightly regarded recruit (though he also had a Stanford offer) as an undersized 2 guard with a reputation as a great shooter. On paper a 6'1 Freshman SG who was rated outside the top 150 recruits is the best option at either the 2/3 going in to the season.

PG Mason Backup Washington- This is literally the one position on the roster where the depth was comfortable. We had an All B1G point guard coming back and a Freshman to ~50 ish PG coming in to back him up. With Dupree and Amir also capable handling the ball and creating for others, another PG couldn't have been called anything more than a luxury.

My conclusion is that we literally could have used (needed IMHO) at least one more player 6'4 or taller with an actual skill that would make them worthy of the term role player. We could have used a defensive 2/3 that couldn't shoot, but that could spare Amir/Dupree time guarding the other teams best wing. We could have used a pure shooter at the 2, 3, or 4 position that would allowed for more court spacing for Murphy in the post or drives from Mason, Coffey, and McBrayer. We could have used another PF/C with a more refined game so that our 3 big rotation of Lynch/Murphy/Curry would have had a cushion. Obviously, we also could have used a really good player at any non-PG position who could certainly find their way to 20 plus minutes a night joining our 6 returners we had confidence in.

The toughest thing would have been getting a really talented 4 or 5 to come to Minnesota as a grad transfer. I don't think that was a realistic ask as more playing time likely could have been found at other high majors. I do think it was realistic to add a player or even two players to this roster that could have helped this year. Coach Pitino went in to a non-rebuilding year with scholarships going to a Transfer C who has to sit out, A 4th year PF/C who had not gotten off the bench in 3 previous seasons, another 4th year C who he only chose to play in very specific matchups, a Sophomore SF who attempted a total of two shots during conference play as a Freshman, and a SF who was recovering from his second major knee injury. That's 5 of his 13 scholarships going to players that you either knew were not going to help at all (Stockman, Diedhiou), were going to help a little at best (Konate), or guys who if they contributed it would have to be looked at as a bonus given their history (Hurt, Fitzgerald).

It would be one thing if Pitino gambled on this lack of depth to take a transfer (or two) that was a no doubt impact player even if that impact was just for one year, but that's not what happened.

Disagree with this being an inexcusable loss. Had Coffey played I might agree but when you are down 2 starters, especially on short notice, all bets are off at that point. It is not like we got blown out by Indiana, it was a tough game with two teams that are clearly struggling right now with roster issues.

On the roster issues, the Stockman move was clearly done with 2019 in mind and while it would have been nice to get a productive player with that scholarship none of us know what was truly available to them as alternative options. Prior to the Curry injury the front court looked a little thin but most of us were really excited about this roster (myself included). Clearly Fitzgerald has been a let down to this point and while Hurt has improved he still has a long way to go. Washington hasn't hit the ground running as fast as we hoped and Harris is struggling to find his place as well. Then you add in the injuries/suspensions and suddenly what looked like a solid roster is a mess.

Some of that falls on Pitino for sure but this isn't the NBA where you can go sign players to fill holes and as things develop over the course of the season you have to adjust on the fly and do the best you can. We all knew the Curry injury was going to hurt the team but I don't think we had a true grasp on just how much.

 

[Otis]

Why doesn't Fitz get more PT? He was 2 for 2 from 3 and more made shots from 3 would help Murph tremendously. Can he not play defense?

 

[bga1]

Why doesn't Fitz get more PT? He was 2 for 2 from 3 and more made shots from 3 would help Murph tremendously. Can he not play defense?

They will have to play him more. After seeing Konate in action again, I see little doubt that we will have to go small more often. Hurt plays solid defense but is no threat and doesn't rebound well. I see them having to work Fitz and Harris into the mix more.

 

[golfing18now]

There was no way we were getting a solid grad transfer to come here with a starting lineup of Lynch, Murphy, Coffey, McBrayer and Mason. Grad transfers come to start and be the additional key that brings a team over the top. Back when the recruiting was being done we had projected good depth with Washington (1 or 2), Curry (4 or 5), Fitzgerald (3 or 4), Hurt (3 or 4) and perhaps with a shooter in Harris incoming. Konate was there as fallback depth.

The case can easily be argued that Pitino is guilty of roster mis-management. But the big mistake was made in year 1 with the Konate and Gaston recruiting. With neither panning out and both at the same position, it became a long term problem. After this year, that excuse is gone and I expect we will see more balanced rosters going forward.

Regardless of how one views it- what has happened has been ridiculous bad luck. Nothing more.

I agree. Pitino made a mistake in his first recruiting cycle when he probably aimed unrealistically high and ended up needed to scramble to get Konate and Diedhiou. It also would have been hard to predict Josh Martin would have flamed out as quickly as he did in that class. If I recall correctly, Martin was the highest ranked player in that class and definitely would have filled a need on this roster (unclear how the domino's would have fallen beyond that with Murphy, etc.). So he was left with a four person recruiting class in his first year where only one of the four became a serviceable player (Mason). This is our senior class. On the other hand, I would argue that each recruiting cycle since then has been as good, if not better, than the previous class. We should see better depth moving forward (barring injury/suspensions).

The injury to Curry was just a killer. We all knew how thin our front court would be heading into the season with Lynch's foul problems, etc. They just don't have a tournament caliber front court with the roster as it is today with Lynch and Curry out of the equation.

Regarding Hurt.....he was the second ranked Minnesota player in his class according to most recruiting sites (I believe). The same people on here griping about him being on the roster would likely have been complaining if Pitino hadn't recruited him because he was a Minnesota kid. Close the borders....blah blah blah. I guess we like the Minnesota kids until they don't perform on the court to expectation (i.e. Joey King).

 

[Go Gophs]

Im a die hard fan and want to offer my honest opinion, some might not like it.

1- Gaston, Konate, and Fitzgerald. Cant graduate fast enough. There is nothing more to talk about here. Swing and miss on all 3 big time.

2-Hurt... This kid cant play and nobody will convince me otherwise. O pts in 30 some minutes? He doesn't shoot. But more alarming to me today was how terrible he was on defense. Was it just me or did anyone else notice how SLOW he is?? He looks like he is running in a bowl of oatmeal. Also he was extremely tired and could hardly stand up. He cant rebound and guys walk around him. What good is he??? He cant score or play defense. Some on here are in love with the flow of his passing.. Give me a break. We stroke his feathers in hopes of getting his brother. If we land his brother we might forget about Michael. It aint happening here. Sorry. I don't see him being a good player.

3- Im optimistic on Washington and will be patient but what Ive seen so far doesn't get me too excited considering he was anointed the next coming of Stephon Marbury. His shooting percentage continues to be horrendous. Hopefully he can figure it out.

4-Lets play small ball the rest of the year- ditch the big guys(Gaston, Hurt, Konate, Fitzgerald) Play Washington alongside of Mason and hope we can get Coffey back. Not sure why Harris doesn't see the court. Is it his defense?

5- The future is still bright and I remain optimistic but once again it looks like another season is derailed and our hopes are dashed. Pitino needs to recruit and develop a serviceable bench. Last year was the same story. When Springs went down we had nobody to go to on the bench. Injuries will happen and the next man must stand up but its frustrating when the next man up is an orange cone. That's on Pitino.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.
1. All of those guys are terrible.
2. Yes, Hurt is D2 level. I don't think he would dominate on that level either. He's OK, but most definitely not D1 material.
3. Washington will come around. He still gets to the hoop better than anyone on the roster. This offeason he needs to shoot, shoot, shoot until his arms fall off though.
4. Small ball might work, it can't hurt. Either way this team probably is not making the dance anymore.
5. Future is bright yes. We will need another PG though and someone to replace Lynch.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I agree with pretty much everything you said.
1. All of those guys are terrible.
2. Yes, Hurt is D2 level. I don't think he would dominate on that level either. He's OK, but most definitely not D1 material.
3. Washington will come around. He still gets to the hoop better than anyone on the roster. This offeason he needs to shoot, shoot, shoot until his arms fall off though.
4. Small ball might work, it can't hurt. Either way this team probably is not making the dance anymore.
5. Future is bright yes. We will need another PG though and someone to replace Lynch.

Hopefully some combo of Oturu, Stockman, and Curry can replace Lynch but the backup PG position is a bit of a worry. Assuming Curry comes back healthy and we can get solid production out of the true freshman the roster next year should be pretty solid with a nice returning core and some new faces.

 

[howeda7]

Why doesn't Fitz get more PT? He was 2 for 2 from 3 and more made shots from 3 would help Murph tremendously. Can he not play defense?

Fitz and Washington should start going forward until Coffey comes back.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Fitz and Washington should start going forward until Coffey comes back.

I thought Fitzgerald was part of a serviceable lineup when he was in there. That's why, if memory serves, he was on the floor down the stretch.

 

[SelectionSunday]

Hopefully some combo of Oturu, Stockman, and Curry can replace Lynch.

If he decides to come back for his 5th year and is eligible to become a graduate transfer, Reid Travis would be a perfect fit. More of a 4 than a 5, but we'd take him!

Of course, that assumes he views the Gophers as a clearer path to the NCAA tourney than Stanford.

A top 6 of Reid, Murphy, Coffey, McBrayer, Curry, and Jelly (assuming he figures things out) would be a nice starting point. Stockman is most likely in the Bakary/Gaston mode.

 

[Bad Gopher]

If he decides to come back for his 5th year and is eligible to become a graduate transfer, Reid Travis would be a perfect fit. More of a 4 than a 5, but we'd take him!

Of course, that assumes he views the Gophers as a clearer path to the NCAA tourney than Stanford.

A top 6 of Reid, Murphy, Coffey, McBrayer, Curry, and Jelly (assuming he figures things out) would be a nice starting point. Stockman is most likely in the Bakary/Gaston mode.

When my wife and I were talking about this in the car the other day, that was the question: whether this is an attractive enough destination as a tourney team.

 

[Hates Monikers]

Pitino had a lot of attrition early on. Five of the 10 guys signed who should be upperclassmen are gone or unavailable. Add to that whiffs on Konate and Diedhiou, Fitz's knees and Lynch's situation, and that equals depth issues. (Lynch and Fitzgerald aren't included below because they weren't officially part of a recruiting class.) That list doesn't include McNeil, who was the only high school recruit in 2013 and didn't last.

It remains to be seen how some guys in the more recent classes pan out. I'd like to believe Pitino is better today at identifying talent, personalities and fit, but we'll have to wait and see.


2014
Nate Mason
Bakary Konate
Gaston Diedhiou
Carlos Morris - GONE
Josh Martin - GONE

2015
Dupree McBrayer
Jordan Murphy
Jarvis Johnson - HEALTH
Kevin Dorsey - GONE
Ahmad Gilbert - GONE

2016
Eric Curry
Amir Coffey
Michael Hurt

2017
Jamir Harris
Isaiah Washington