Good Example of Coaching vs Talent

Drex96

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Two great coaches square off on Big Ten Classic game 8 pm EST with
1984 NCAA East Regional game:

Indiana v UNC

Carolina features 9 McDonald All Americans including:

Michael Jordan
Sam Perkins
Matt Doherty
Brad Daughtery
Kenny Smith

Can't remember who was on Bobby Knight's Hoosiers besides Steve Alford but UNC was the East Region #1 seed.

Proof that a good coach can "coach up" a team of role players.

Not sure if Knight tossed a chair, but if he did that's bonus footage.
 

Who was UNC's coach at the time?

Was he any good?
 

Two great coaches square off on Big Ten Classic game 8 pm EST with
1984 NCAA East Regional game:

Indiana v UNC

Carolina features 9 McDonald All Americans including:

Michael Jordan
Sam Perkins
Matt Doherty
Brad Daughtery
Kenny Smith

Can't remember who was on Bobby Knight's Hoosiers besides Steve Alford but UNC was the East Region #1 seed.

Proof that a good coach can "coach up" a team of role players.

Not sure if Knight tossed a chair, but if he did that's bonus footage.

Or Duke versus Kentucky in March 1998. Duke was #1 seed and had multiple McDonalds A-A. Kentucky had 1 McDonalds A-A.

http://bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/Games/19980322Duke.html

And yet, Kentucky won.
 


Not if you measure his W-L record in FF games (below .500).

Well the best you can do in the final four without winning it all is be .500 (1-1). So, the only way to be above .500 in the final four is to win the National Championship more than half the time you are in the Final Four. Don't quite know if that is a good indicator.
 


Well the best you can do in the final four without winning it all is be .500 (1-1). So, the only way to be above .500 in the final four is to win the National Championship more than half the time you are in the Final Four. Don't quite know if that is a good indicator.

I think it is. In days gone by, teams played 2 FF games (not just 1 for half of them). Dean Smith has a losing (W-L) record in FF games.
 

I was Curious

I think it is. In days gone by, teams played 2 FF games (not just 1 for half of them). Dean Smith has a losing (W-L) record in FF games.

I was curious as I could not recall when the "Third Place Game (Consolation Game) " was dropped.

from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Basketball_Championship#Format_history

For several years in the men's tournament, the teams eliminated in the semifinals met in a consolation game prior to the championship; this was discontinued in 1981

Dean Smith was in 3 Final Four "Consolation" games. 1967, 1969, and 1972. He record was 1 win and 2 losses. ( What a loser ! ) ;)

He lost to Houston with Elvin Hayes in the consolation game of 1967. Houston 84, North Carolina 62.

He lost to Drake 104-84, in the Consolation game of 1969.

He beat Louiville 105-91 in the Consolation game of 1972.

per: http://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0747185.html
 

I understand you point Drex, on any given day a coach might put together the perfect game plan and beat a team with better talent. Some teams will go on inexplicable streaks and advance well beyond what seems to be their ceilings, see Villanova 1985 or George Mason 2006. Look at what Dick Bennett did with that collection at Wisconsin (shudder) in 2000, amazing. Sometimes it happens, but most of the time, overwhelmingly it does not. In ’84 that same Indiana team you reference loses the next game to a 6-8 ACC team, Virginia. Virginia (Olden Polynice, Othell Wilson, Rick Crlisle) then ends up in the Final Four with Georgetown, (Patrick Ewing, Reggie Williams, David Wingate, Michael Graham, Fred Brown) Houston, (Hakeem Olajuwon, Michael Young, Alvin Franklin, Benny Anders, Greg Anderson) and Kentucky (Winston Bennett, James Blackmon, Kenny Walker, Sam Bowie, Mel Turpin, Roger Harden) Terry Holland did the best job that year in the NCAA’s, but the other teams simply had more talent. There may have been Final Fours with more future NBA players, but not many. The coaches…Holland, Joe B, John Thompson, and Guy Lewis. The best coaches in the country at the time? I’ll say no. Terry Holland had to coach his ass of to get there, he did a superb job, the rest did a good job but had superior talent. Talent to me is always the most important ingredient. Last night Rafftery and Bilas mentioned a past Final Four and I believe Bilas says something like “I could tell you who wins by counting the pros”. By no means is it the only factor…just the most important. And don’t forget luck. At some point in time, you gotta get a little lucky. There are many ways to screw up a talented team and some coaches come to mind. No way does Michigan win in ’87 (also a great year for talent) with Bill Frieder. Great talent and a sub-par coach. Insert Steve Fischer (Not a coaching genius IMHO) and they win the title. Go figure. Getting back to Knight, he loses to Richmond in the NCAA's four years later. On any given day, bad luck, what ever you want to call it. My point is that you must have the horses to compete. Good coaching and some luck are also on the required list, but the first item on my list is talent.
 

I think it is. In days gone by, teams played 2 FF games (not just 1 for half of them). Dean Smith has a losing (W-L) record in FF games.

Ok, so now Dean Smith was a bad coach.

You're the biggest idiot in message board history, glad you're a Boiler and not a Gopher.
 



He's not the biggest idiot in message board history. He's our Cliff Clavin. The day Tubby leaves his best friend (obviously!) will go too. He doesn't care about the gophers, the program, the university, only Tubby. I would be surprised if he's ever set foot in Williams.
 

Ok, so now Dean Smith was a bad coach.

You're the biggest idiot in message board history, glad you're a Boiler and not a Gopher.

Nope, didn't say that. Dean Smith is 3rd best (ever) behind Wooden and Rupp.

But Dean Smith was MUCH better in regular season than in NCAA FF games.

For example, Dean Smith AND TUBBY SMITH have a similar (70%) W-L record in career NCAA tourney games.
 

He's not the biggest idiot in message board history. He's our Cliff Clavin. The day Tubby leaves his best friend (obviously!) will go too. He doesn't care about the gophers, the program, the university, only Tubby. I would be surprised if he's ever set foot in Williams.

I prefer Purdue in the Big 10 (it's my alma mater). I have never been to The Barn for a game. I toured it a couple of times in the offseason.
 

I was curious as I could not recall when the "Third Place Game (Consolation Game) " was dropped.

from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Basketball_Championship#Format_history

For several years in the men's tournament, the teams eliminated in the semifinals met in a consolation game prior to the championship; this was discontinued in 1981

Dean Smith was in 3 Final Four "Consolation" games. 1967, 1969, and 1972. He record was 1 win and 2 losses. ( What a loser ! ) ;)

He lost to Houston with Elvin Hayes in the consolation game of 1967. Houston 84, North Carolina 62.

He lost to Drake 104-84, in the Consolation game of 1969.

He beat Louiville 105-91 in the Consolation game of 1972.

per: http://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0747185.html

Dean Smith made 11 FF appearances. His career W-L record in FF games was 8-11.

John Wooden was 21-3 in FF games. Adolph Rupp was 10-2 in FF games.
 



Ok, so now Dean Smith was a bad coach.

You're the biggest idiot in message board history, glad you're a Boiler and not a Gopher.

Some posters might not agree with everything FOT says but to call him "the biggest idiot in message board history"? you have to be kidding me.

NateDawg...why are you so angry?
 

Nope, didn't say that. Dean Smith is 3rd best (ever) behind Wooden and Rupp.

But Dean Smith was MUCH better in regular season than in NCAA FF games.

For example, Dean Smith AND TUBBY SMITH have a similar (70%) W-L record in career NCAA tourney games.

Bud Grant called. He thinks you are an enormous moron.
 

He's not the biggest idiot in message board history. He's our Cliff Clavin. The day Tubby leaves his best friend (obviously!) will go too. He doesn't care about the gophers, the program, the university, only Tubby. I would be surprised if he's ever set foot in Williams.

LMAO! That is the perfect name for him, Cliff Clavin! It's kind of like a weird obsession (actually, it is a weird obsession) - you all know how much I love Izzo and Bill Self, but I guess I just don't have time to patrol their message boards and post every stat about them. I can hardly keep up with GH, following the TEAM (not just a coach) that I've loved and followed since college. Plus, I think that if I did that I'd be labeled a "stalker"!
 

Ok, so now Dean Smith was a bad coach.

You're the biggest idiot in message board history, glad you're a Boiler and not a Gopher.

Apparently the basketball board needs a little more class.

I also know that the posters on this board are overwhelmingly educated, and had pretty broad vocabularies, so please use them. I've been following a few threads where I've seen a lot of name calling from "idiot" to "Dumbs*it" to worse. If you want to prove someone is an idiot - you can easily do that by proving your point, and making them look like one. I've never been a big fan of name calling on the boards, and I think it makes you get your point across a lot more effectively when you do refrain from that. Anyways, those are just my $.02 - didn't want to call anyone out, it just makes it a lot more civilized board when people can have debates about what's going on, without making personal attacks.
 




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