Gach at Point

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GopherPlaya

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Am I the only one who prefer Both playing a Point Forward role and putting Marcus Carr off the ball. The ball moves better with Gach as the playmaker and Carr would still get his but after the ball gets swung/reversed a few times. I hate watching Carr go hero mode. It has hurt guys like Gabe and Robbins bc he has missed them open trying to get his.
 

GopherPlaya said:
Am I the only one who prefer Both playing a Point Forward role and putting Marcus Carr off the ball. The ball moves better with Gach as the playmaker and Carr would still get his but after the ball gets swung/reversed a few times. I hate watching Carr go hero mode. It has hurt guys like Gabe and Robbins bc he has missed them open trying to get his.
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I wouldn't go with 100% switch, but I do think all would be better off if Both/Mash handled the ball a little more and Carr was off the ball more. I also noticed last night that Marcus was off on his passes several times, most notably to Gabe. He was open and put the ball toward him but wasn't able to get it to him in the shooting posture. Gabe had to reach up, down, and over, altering his shooting motion. That doesn't help shooting percentages or assist numbers.
 

Holy Man said:
I wouldn't go with 100% switch, but I do think all would be better off if Both/Mash handled the ball a little more and Carr was off the ball more. I also noticed last night that Marcus was off on his passes several times, most notably to Gabe. He was open and put the ball toward him but wasn't able to get it to him in the shooting posture. Gabe had to reach up, down, and over, altering his shooting motion. That doesn't help shooting percentages or assist numbers.
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I feel like Carr has played a major role in Gabes Regression. He doesn't get him the ball on time or in rhythm and his passes to shooters on the wing arent accurate bc he may not want to pass it but has too bc he cant get to the rim on those possessions
 

Yeah, I liked it. I think Gach's versatility should really allow us to comfortably get Carr more minutes. He will help out Mash (who also might be more comfortable off the ball).

Carr is a really good player but he dominates the ball so much that we need to find ways to force the team to move the ball more. I like when Gach is starting the offense because the ball moves a bit better. I would continue to call plays where Gach is starting the offense. We're close to having a competent offensive system, we just need the wings to move a bit more (back screens, cuts, etc.) and we really need to work to minimize the number of minutes we play with two Cs (Robbins & Curry).
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, I liked it. I think Gach's versatility should really allow us to comfortably get Carr more minutes. He will help out Mash (who also might be more comfortable off the ball).

Carr is a really good player but he dominates the ball so much that we need to find ways to force the team to move the ball more. I like when Gach is starting the offense because the ball moves a bit better. I would continue to call plays where Gach is starting the offense. We're close to having a competent offensive system, we just need the wings to move a bit more (back screens, cuts, etc.) and we really need to work to minimize the number of minutes we play with two Cs (Robbins & Curry).
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I think Pitino prefers this. He did it with Nate Mason too.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, I liked it. I think Gach's versatility should really allow us to comfortably get Carr more minutes. He will help out Mash (who also might be more comfortable off the ball).

Carr is a really good player but he dominates the ball so much that we need to find ways to force the team to move the ball more. I like when Gach is starting the offense because the ball moves a bit better. I would continue to call plays where Gach is starting the offense. We're close to having a competent offensive system, we just need the wings to move a bit more (back screens, cuts, etc.) and we really need to work to minimize the number of minutes we play with two Cs (Robbins & Curry).
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I think Curry/Omersa is a 5-10 a game to spell Robbins. I like Ihnen aka German KD starting at the 4 even when Johnson comes back. We can rotate those 2 at the 4 spot. Omersa is energy and Curry is leadership but either provides no more than that. I am still trying to figure Williams out. He is out of control at times but looks promising too
 

Yes, I am all for this move. Gach set Gabe up nicely last night and will distribute the ball much better. When we don't feed Robbins, the offense consists of Carr dribbling around for 20 seconds and 4 people standing hoping he'll kick to them.

Carr will still get his shots, but I think this would open the offense up significantly better.

Go Gophers!!
 





I have been pretty solidly in the let carr create camp but am starting to waver a bit. Of course they would never say it, but I wonder if it is frustrating for his teammates at times. He did only take 7 shots last night.
 
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BleedGopher said:
Mason wasn't nearly as ball dominant as Carr is. If Elias Sports tracked such a stat, I bet Carr would lead the nation in dribbles.

Go Gophers!!
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Agreed for this year. Last year they had similar usage ratings.
 




What we're watching this year is not likely to improve his position in eyes of the NBA. He's not a lottery pick and very unlikely he'd be a first round pick. No team is going to take a 2nd rounder and say "don't look to pass, first look to drive, then look to shoot, look to drive again ... ok, guess it's time to pass"
 

GopherPlaya said:
This year he seems to be on a prove he is a NBA player type mission
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First couple games it worked fine. Now teams adjusted and basically double him. Pitino needs to pull him or play him off the ball more when this adjustment starts happening if he won't adjust his game. Liam was able to take advantage, but B1G posts won't be as easy to do so. Need Gach, Gabe, Ihnen, and Johnson to make it hurt if teams do so.
 

The problem is we don't really have set plays or really any sort of an offense outside of the one on one drive and score or dish. Not saying Gach can't do it, but I think Carr is better at it.

If we put some kind of off ball screens, or actual movement in and got Carr open for shots then I think this idea would work fine.
 


tmvander said:
The problem is we don't really have set plays or really any sort of an offense outside of the one on one drive and score or dish. Not saying Gach can't do it, but I think Carr is better at it.

If we put some kind of off ball screens, or actual movement in and got Carr open for shots then I think this idea would work fine.
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Yeah, the players off the ball don't have enough movement. They seem to think that just standing at the three point line is the equivalent to spacing/modern basketball/etc. If you watch the teams who really get it, those guys (off the ball) should be moving a lot. Once the ball gets to certain areas they start setting up to shoot/swing, but it's not all they do. Think Klay Thompson, that guy is constantly moving without the ball.
 

Fwiw I think we are seeing the tinkering by Pitino and growth of other guards in real time.

We exited last year with one solid ball handler/playmaker. The rest were shaky. We entered this year without know how reliable freshman (mash) and transfers (Gach) would be with the ball.

Our early season system made sense given that the ball handling role is earned not given. Other guys have earned it, and I think we will continue to progress out of the hero ball for two reasons. Growth/gelling of supporting cast, and it simply won’t work in the big ten. Carr won’t be able to break down his man and get to the rim at will, beginning Tuesday. I also think guys like Ihnen will thrive in the big ten because Carr will have to involve others.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, the players off the ball don't have enough movement. They seem to think that just standing at the three point line is the equivalent to spacing/modern basketball/etc. If you watch the teams who really get it, those guys (off the ball) should be moving a lot. Once the ball gets to certain areas they start setting up to shoot/swing, but it's not all they do. Think Klay Thompson, that guy is constantly moving without the ball.
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Every team we've played so far has ran a better offense than we have.
 

It is a little difficult because i think the argument can be fairly made we overachieved last season with carr playing this way. Counter argument i suppose is that last season we had no other option, while this season we do so better to spread the sugar.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, I have no doubt. He tried to shoe-horn Amir into this role as well. I don't think Pitino did Amir any favors by making him into essentially a ball dominant lead guard rather than a skilled wing.
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The Coffey's believed Amir's future in the NBA was as a point guard. That vision may have changed, but it was what they were looking for in the recruiting process. Whether playing the point helped or not is an open question, but there is evidence suggesting that is what Amir wanted.
 

golf said:
It is a little difficult because i think the argument can be fairly made we overachieved last season with carr playing this way. Counter argument i suppose is that last season we had no other option, while this season we do so better to spread the sugar.
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I don't know if we overachieved last year we finished where we were predicted
 

GopherPlaya said:
I don't know if we overachieved last year we finished where we were predicted
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Fair point. Guess i look at it from the viewpoint of basically having just 2 players. Yet we finished 8-12 in the toughest conference. Also 5 of those losses were nail biters.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, the players off the ball don't have enough movement. They seem to think that just standing at the three point line is the equivalent to spacing/modern basketball/etc. If you watch the teams who really get it, those guys (off the ball) should be moving a lot. Once the ball gets to certain areas they start setting up to shoot/swing, but it's not all they do. Think Klay Thompson, that guy is constantly moving without the ball.
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Another poster made a good point that the worse teams have more movement. Duke players, for example, just stand around the 3 point line and play drive and dish. Michigan State does this as well. Same for other highly ranked teams. Not much movement.

Lesser teams do more movement in their 4 out offense for obvious reasons. I would say Wisconsin does about the same amount of movement/screening as we do. UMKC and UND did much more movement/screening than us. Are u thinking our offense should have more movement or that our movement just needs to be more effective?
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, the players off the ball don't have enough movement. They seem to think that just standing at the three point line is the equivalent to spacing/modern basketball/etc. If you watch the teams who really get it, those guys (off the ball) should be moving a lot. Once the ball gets to certain areas they start setting up to shoot/swing, but it's not all they do. Think Klay Thompson, that guy is constantly moving without the ball.
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I like the reference to Klay Thompson because when Golden State is playing well he's super fun to watch. The game he had over 40 and had less than 5 dribbles (I can't remember the exact number) was amazing.

We're not going to see that with this team. Our offense appears to be no set plays and is based on "Read and React". With the ball moving, players can see where the ball went and decide to be a screener, cutter, or slide to the open spot on the floor to hopefully get a clean shot.

When the PG holds the ball and dribbles, there's really nothing to react to. Last night it happened a lot in the first half. Marcus spend almost 20 seconds dribbling. There is no ball movement. The players don't move because there is nothing to "read and react" to. Plus, if someone starts just running around and Marcus breaks his man and is heading to the basket, the person running around could bring another defender close to eliminate the layup.

Teams like Golden State know that the ball moves before the players. The offense is initiated by almost anyone on the team because it really doesn't matter. They all know the ball moving creates the opportunities, not a bunch of people just running around. They get across half court and they get the ball moving.

That's why the offense looks so different with Both or Jamal at the point making an early first pass.
 

golf said:
Fair point. Guess i look at it from the viewpoint of basically having just 2 players. Yet we finished 8-12 in the toughest conference. Also 5 of those losses were nail biters.
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We can argue that if we moved the ball more at times we those 5 nail biters may went differently think about the Iowa home game where we didn't get oturo the ball at all to finish the game
 

McDobb4BB said:
I like the reference to Klay Thompson because when Golden State is playing well he's super fun to watch. The game he had over 40 and had less than 5 dribbles (I can't remember the exact number) was amazing.

We're not going to see that with this team. Our offense appears to be no set plays and is based on "Read and React". With the ball moving, players can see where the ball went and decide to be a screener, cutter, or slide to the open spot on the floor to hopefully get a clean shot.

When the PG holds the ball and dribbles, there's really nothing to react to. Last night it happened a lot in the first half. Marcus spend almost 20 seconds dribbling. There is no ball movement. The players don't move because there is nothing to "read and react" to. Plus, if someone starts just running around and Marcus breaks his man and is heading to the basket, the person running around could bring another defender close to eliminate the layup.

Teams like Golden State know that the ball moves before the players. The offense is initiated by almost anyone on the team because it really doesn't matter. They all know the ball moving creates the opportunities, not a bunch of people just running around. They get across half court and they get the ball moving.

That's why the offense looks so different with Both or Jamal at the point making an early first pass.
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60 points on 11 dribbles, just incredible.
 

GopherPlaya said:
I feel like Carr has played a major role in Gabes Regression. He doesn't get him the ball on time or in rhythm and his passes to shooters on the wing arent accurate bc he may not want to pass it but has too bc he cant get to the rim on those possessions
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You can tell if Gabe is going to make the shot based on the way he catches the pass.
 


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