Fleck's Ego

[MNVCGUY]

People need to start understanding what 2019 was and what it wasn't.

- Penn State was amazing and will always be a feather in Fleck's cap. Franklin was so impressed, that he store Ciarrocca away.
- The bowl game was a nice surprise and a great win, too. Especially given what the media and everyone thought was going to happen. Auburn was dejected to be in that game, compared to what they thought they could've accomplished that year, and also assumed they'd just "out speed" us or something.
- The Iowa and especially Wisconsin games were disappointments.
- Every other Big Ten game was against a down or easy opponent.
- Non-conf games could've easily been 0-3.


It was a great season. Hey, I'll take being lucky over being good. But in hindsight, we should've understood why it wasn't going to be a launching pad.

Maybe not a launching pad to top 20 seasons and championships but I do think it was a launching pad on the recruiting front. I don't know that guys like Ortiz or Dickerson are looking our way without 2019.

 

[Tlsbhansen]

Maybe not a launching pad to top 20 seasons and championships but I do think it was a launching pad on the recruiting front. I don't know that guys like Ortiz or Dickerson are looking our way without 2019.

Have they signed yet? Wouldn't be surprised if they have second thoughts after watching this S-Show of a display of coaching and performance.

 

[MaxyJR1]

How long do people continue to accept his we're young on D while they continue making the same mistakes over and over?. If you are coaching them to do it the right way it shouldn't take a whole season for them to stop making the same stupid mistakes unless they just plain aren't as talented as Fleck has said they are.

True in a typical year, but we don’t know what spring ball or training camp looked like. Even typical week preparation isn’t the same. I think they are getting better. Unfortunately it needs to be exponentially better.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

We pretended that Fleck took over a team devoid of talent and now those talent devoid guys are playing in the NFL. Point being is everyone has their own reality.

I don't know what that has to do with ignoring 2019...

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

I meant dick move, but my finger typing skills on my phone aren’t as accurate as a keyboard.
my opinion is it’s a bad look to leave starters in during a blow out win or loss. Especially in the 4th quarter against the other teams back up.
It also doesn’t give your back ups some real game experience. Which when your a young team, as PJ continues to say, is inexplicable

Why not play who you this needs to be out there?

 

[GFBfan]

Why not play who you this needs to be out there?

The offense was inept fir 3 quarters, why not give some other kids a shot to see what they can do?

 

[BarnBurner]

True in a typical year, but we don’t know what spring ball or training camp looked like. Even typical week preparation isn’t the same. I think they are getting better. Unfortunately it needs to be exponentially better.

Good grief - did all teams in the conference have the same limitations?

 

[BarnBurner]

The offense was inept fir 3 quarters, why not give some other kids a shot to see what they can do?

No defensible reason for Mo or Morgan to be out there in the 4th. PERFECT opportunity for others to get just a bit of experience.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

The offense was inept fir 3 quarters, why not give some other kids a shot to see what they can do?

Because they aren't playing good and need to do better?

They going to get better by riding the bench?

 

[PMWinSTP]

True in a typical year, but we don’t know what spring ball or training camp looked like. Even typical week preparation isn’t the same. I think they are getting better. Unfortunately it needs to be exponentially better.

Applies to all B1G teams...

 

[MaxyJR1]

Applies to all B1G teams...

All Big Ten teams have a bunch of Freshmen playing? All Big Ten teams have new coordinators? Every circumstance is different. COVID does not affect all programs the same.
Our defense was not going to be as good as last year no matter what the circumstance. Our Offense was not going to be as good no matter the circumstance.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Good grief - did all teams in the conference have the same limitations?

Nope, COVID was different in all locals. Teams were stopping and starting at different times. It’s reality. Again we were never going to be as good as last year.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

People argued he had no offensive talent which was true.

Sometimes it's like you forget that we watched last year too.

Below are the list of people that Fleck inherited on offense:
Tyler Johnson (most rec yards in school history)
Rodney Smith (2nd all time in rushing yards)
Shannon Brooks
Blaise Andries (Claeys recruit)
Sam Schlueter
Connor Olson
Ko Kieft
Bryce Witham

Some of those fellas might not be huge names, but the Fleck recruits aren't taking their spots.

 

[Plato]

There is national cut and there is a local cult.
The local cult is in MN and Fleck is the Dear Leader.

 

[BarnBurner]

Nope, COVID was different in all locals. Teams were stopping and starting at different times. It’s reality. Again we were never going to be as good as last year.

Big was not all the same in terms of practice, etc?

 

[MaxyJR1]

Big was not all the same in terms of practice, etc?

No, they had rules, but if teams shut down due to COVID the other teams didn’t shut down. Spring and summer I think we’re more uniform, but not all had same timeframe for spring ball.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Sometimes it's like you forget that we watched last year too.

Below are the list of people that Fleck inherited on offense:
Tyler Johnson (most rec yards in school history)
Rodney Smith (2nd all time in rushing yards)
Shannon Brooks
Blaise Andries (Claeys recruit)
Sam Schlueter
Connor Olson
Ko Kieft
Bryce Witham

Some of those fellas might not be huge names, but the Fleck recruits aren't taking their spots.

Nearly all of those guys not named Rodney Smith and Shannon Brooks were unknowns when Fleck arrived, and Brooks couldn't stay healthy.

Tyler Johnson only had 141 yards receiving in his first year, then really developed in his 1st two seasons with Fleck.

Andries originally committed to Claeys, but signed with Fleck. Fleck had to keep him committed in the 3 weeks prior to signing day after pushing out the remainder of Claeys class, and he had other big offers. Fleck and Callahan have done a great job developing the OL recruits, including ones they inherited, as they did at Western Michigan.

One of the biggest issues with the defense that Fleck inherited was the DL. There was nothing for young talent in the DT pipeline, and Claeys wanted to switch to a 3-4 because they could not recruit DTs. Renner ended up developing well under Fleck, and the rest of the DT group has been a patchwork of transfers and young recruits. Cheney and Carter have played quite a bit this season, but they are both RS FR, and Teague opted out.

The DE talent was also scarce after Coughlin and Winston D.

 

[Some guy]

Good grief - did all teams in the conference have the same limitations?

No.


We have no idea who is able to practice week to week for a given team during Covid
We have no ideas what coaches were available an unavailable


I’m not saying the gophers had more or fewer limitations. But saying every team has the same limitations is straight up wrong

 

[GFBfan]

Because they aren't playing good and need to do better?

They going to get better by riding the bench?

That would be like saying we’re going to RUTM on 3rd and 10 after getting stuffed the first two plays because we want to get better at that play. Then the next time you have the ball you run the same thing.
They had 3 quarters to show what they could do and produced zero points.
At some point you’ve got to give your back ups a chance to play, unless you want them all to transfer. The 4th quarter of both the past two weeks were perfect times to get some guys live reps and we didn’t. It was a missed opportunity. Do you think struggling to score a TD against Iowa’s back ups really provided the offense with a psychological boost at the end of the game?

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

That would be like saying we’re going to RUTM on 3rd and 10 after getting stuffed the first two plays because we want to get better at that play. Then the next time you have the ball you run the same thing.
They had 3 quarters to show what they could do and produced zero points.
At some point you’ve got to give your back ups a chance to play, unless you want them all to transfer. The 4th quarter of both the past two weeks were perfect times to get some guys live reps and we didn’t. It was a missed opportunity. Do you think struggling to score a TD against Iowa’s back ups really provided the offense with a psychological boost at the end of the game?

So use all 4 quarters ...

Do you think struggling to score a TD against Iowa’s back ups really provided the offense with a psychological boost at the end of the game?

I think you're confusing if you liked the outcome or not with how useful actual time on the field is for a team who hasn't had a lot of time on the field considering limited practices times and such.

 

[btowngopher]

We pretended that Fleck took over a team devoid of talent and now those talent devoid guys are playing in the NFL. Point being is everyone has their own reality.

He did not take over a very talented team. This is the big10. He took over a roster that had like 5 or 6 six guys eventually get drafted. That’s nothing for a Big10 team. For example Iowa has had 16 players drafted over the last four years.

 

[Some guy]

He did not take over a very talented team. This is the big10. He took over a roster that had like 5 or 6 six guys eventually get drafted. That’s nothing for a Big10 team.

I would tend to agree
He took over a great class of players
Not a great roster of players

Minnesota has talent. Last year we were the wrong 3-4 injuries away from being a 6-6 team. Minnesota doesn’t have depth of talent.

 

[Tommyboy]

Last year he was playing with other coaches kids, these are his recruits.

 

[Dano564]

Last year he was playing with other coaches kids, these are his recruits.

The 2016 class had to play immediately without redshirt because there wasn't anything prior to them, so not much for Redshirt Seniors this year.

His first class, the mix class of Claeys and Fleck, he doesn't have much for LB's or DL. Lost two safeties from that class.

The 2018 class was good but not strong defensive line. Great O-line class when healthy and playing, along with the bed WR in recent time. Braelin Oliver hurt who would probably be playing. Reigelsperger hurt / medically retired.

You can point to some misses, but most misses have already left the program other than a couple 2016's and 2017's that don't play much.
If you are going to play all of your 2016's and no redshirts, but you start redshirting the 2017 and 2018, you might have inexperience show up.

 

[Dano564]

It's amazing how this board blames PJ for developing the number of NFL players (a recent record here) yet says he can't develop players. Yet, it was all because of great recruiting that these players were good. Yet forget that the #1 reason listed for Claeys firing was his horrible 2017 that was being assembled.

Did all the anti-Flecks forget that?
With a month before signing period, there isn't a 2017 kid that was committed under Claeys that went somewhere else who is now contributing. Our 2017 class (RS Juniors) was essentially a W-Mich class who is trying to play Big Ten football. Most of those defenders left or never hit the field.

 

[PMWinSTP]

He did not take over a very talented team. This is the big10. He took over a roster that had like 5 or 6 six guys eventually get drafted. That’s nothing for a Big10 team. For example Iowa has had 16 players drafted over the last four years.

Here we go with the "getting drafted" success measure.

 

[MaxyJR1]

It's amazing how this board blames PJ for developing the number of NFL players (a recent record here) yet says he can't develop players. Yet, it was all because of great recruiting that these players were good. Yet forget that the #1 reason listed for Claeys firing was his horrible 2017 that was being assembled.

Did all the anti-Flecks forget that?
With a month before signing period, there isn't a 2017 kid that was committed under Claeys that went somewhere else who is now contributing. Our 2017 class (RS Juniors) was essentially a W-Mich class who is trying to play Big Ten football. Most of those defenders left or never hit the field.

Ding Ding Ding. He and his coaches developed every one of Kill’s/Claey’s last class (3 years of development) and won. Everyone except Bateman may return on offense including two starting OL that sat out this year.

The Grad transfer market may be insane this next cycle.
Defense is the issue and we have to see improvement next year. DT is the position that has to mature quickly.

 

[btowngopher]

Here we go with the "getting drafted" success measure.

So it’s a good measure when it seems like we had a lot of players drafted, but a poor measure when it’s pointed out that we really didn’t have a lot of kids drafted?

 

[PMWinSTP]

So it’s a good measure when it seems like we had a lot of players drafted, but a poor measure when it’s pointed out that we really didn’t have a lot of kids drafted?

There are plenty of very good college players who never play in the NFL and plenty of good programs that put a limited number of players into the NFL.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Nearly all of those guys not named Rodney Smith and Shannon Brooks were unknowns when Fleck arrived, and Brooks couldn't stay healthy.

Tyler Johnson only had 141 yards receiving in his first year, then really developed in his 1st two seasons with Fleck.

Andries originally committed to Claeys, but signed with Fleck. Fleck had to keep him committed in the 3 weeks prior to signing day after pushing out the remainder of Claeys class, and he had other big offers. Fleck and Callahan have done a great job developing the OL recruits, including ones they inherited, as they did at Western Michigan.

One of the biggest issues with the defense that Fleck inherited was the DL. There was nothing for young talent in the DT pipeline, and Claeys wanted to switch to a 3-4 because they could not recruit DTs. Renner ended up developing well under Fleck, and the rest of the DT group has been a patchwork of transfers and young recruits. Cheney and Carter have played quite a bit this season, but they are both RS FR, and Teague opted out.

The DE talent was also scarce after Coughlin and Winston D.

First off, it's Fleck's 4th year here, yes the players I'm talking about were underclassmen when Fleck arrived. That's just match.

Second, these types of arguments can really get us down a black hole, where the Claeys/Kill recruits that panned out were because of Fleck's coaching and the ones that didn't were because they were crappy recruits.

So let me make this clear, Fleck did a great job of building these folks. He really did. I'm not taking anything away from him. I don't think TJ would have been as good as he was without Fleck. I was simply laughing at the assertion that the Kill/Claeys staffs left zero offensive talent. That's simply false. I lived through the Mase to Brew years and the Brew to Kill years to recognize an absolute dearth of talent. This was not the case.

(1) TJ - He was an obvious talent to anyone that watched him as a FR. He stood out. People were universally pumped up about him.

(2) Rodney Smith - We agree.

(3) Shannon was healthy through the 2016 season. I assume we aren't blaming Fleck for his lack of health. Right, right. . the good stuff from these guys goes to Fleck, the bad to Claeys/Kill. Gotcha.

(4) The rest - - yeah, they were underclassmen. However, they aren't exactly losing their jobs to Fleck recruits. They were all coached up by Fleck and Co., but these Kill/Claeys recruits haven't lost their jobs.