Fleck needs to examine every facet of this program

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gopherdudepart2 said:
Elected my butt. Those types of decision's always come from higher management. This means the AD and department strongly hinted or suggested to not spend this money. That is not a PJ decision that is a Coyle and above decision from the U of M. I doubt Fleck if he was given an increased pool to pay assistants, that he would willfully choose not to use it.
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You're incorrect
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
Elected my butt. Those types of decision's always come from higher management. This means the AD and department strongly hinted or suggested to not spend this money. That is not a PJ decision that is a Coyle and above decision from the U of M. I doubt Fleck if he was given an increased pool to pay assistants, that he would willfully choose not to use it.
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Nope not true here.
 

USAF said:
You're incorrect
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If it is in his contract, what would it be in his interest to under-pay or hold back paying assistants, or hiring better one's, some contract bonus clauses? Ego? Seems silly to not hire unless there is a plan in place to hire better one's going into next season. Or there is no plan. Fleck is the type of head coach that need's better assistants and staff, not just to coach but for recruiting.
 

RememberMurray said:
Should Fleck re-evaluate? Yes. Certainly. Heck, I imagine he re-evaluates after every season, win or lose.

Should he consider changes on the staff, specifically on offense? Yep. Offense needs serious attention, especially the passing game.

Should Fleck, or any coach, alter his entire philosophy, developed over years coming up through the coaching ranks, because of one 5-7 season?

Hmmmmm...

Would you? If you started as a grad assistant, paid some dues, learned and absorbed as much as you could from experienced coaches, got one and then two head coaching opportunities and had some pretty decent successes at both stops...

... would you make dramatic changes to your hard-won, carefully-developed core coaching philosophy because of one 5-7 season?
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Murray, I would say that changing times require changing methods.

with any business, you have to be willing to change as times and conditions change. and D1 football is a big business.

so I do think that Fleck needs to look in the mirror and ask himself: "is my coaching philosophy still viable in today's game, with NIL, the portal, realignment and more?" in the end, Fleck may decide that he doesn't need to change - but he should be - at least - asking himself the question.
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
If it is in his contract, what would it be in his interest to under-pay or hold back paying assistants, or hiring better one's, some contract bonus clauses? Ego? Seems silly to not hire unless there is a plan in place to hire better one's going into next season. Or there is no plan. Fleck is the type of head coach that need's better assistants and staff, not just to coach but for recruiting.
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The assistants have so little juice and experience it would be a waste to pay them more as it is Harbaugh was an analyst three years ago we could have paid him $300K and it’s likely three times his salary from then. It’s not rocket science.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
Murray, I would say that changing times require changing methods.

with any business, you have to be willing to change as times and conditions change. and D1 football is a big business.

so I do think that Fleck needs to look in the mirror and ask himself: "is my coaching philosophy still viable in today's game, with NIL, the portal, realignment and more?" in the end, Fleck may decide that he doesn't need to change - but he should be - at least - asking himself the question.
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Yeah, it's a familiar argument — so familiar it borders on conventional wisdom.

But if you want to make a case for exactly how changes in NIL and the portal mean a team must throw more passes, I'll listen. I might just be slow on this point; I don't see a direct connection.
 

Offering a QB in the transfer portal is a step in the right direction. In the past Fleck has said he likes to recruit his QBs out of HS.
 

RememberMurray said:
Yeah, it's a familiar argument — so familiar it borders on conventional wisdom.

But if you want to make a case for exactly how changes in NIL and the portal mean a team must throw more passes, I'll listen. I might just be slow on this point; I don't see a direct connection.
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I don't think it's as simple as "throw more passes."

I would frame it as - being able to compete in a D1 football landscape that now includes NIL, the portal and realignment. Can you play a very conservative, risk-averse style of football and be competitive - especially if your school is being outspent for talent on NIL?

I don't think a team has to throw the ball 40 times a game to be competitive. I think it matters more how you throw and when you throw- a more creative passing attack if you will.

we've all seen it: 3rd-&-8. Gophers run up the middle for 3 yards. Now it's 4th-&-5 and Fleck says "we can't go for it on 4th down because the distance was too far."

well, the distance was too far because of the conservative play call on 3rd down.

there are times when I truly believe that Fleck's coaching philosophy makes it more difficult for the Gophers to compete and win games. You can be successful with that style if you have the talent to make it work. NIL and the portal make it more difficult to acquire that talent. If the coach's philosophy continues to hinder the offense and game strategy, that in turn makes it even more difficult.

that's where I'm coming from.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I don't think it's as simple as "throw more passes."

I would frame it as - being able to compete in a D1 football landscape that now includes NIL, the portal and realignment. Can you play a very conservative, risk-averse style of football and be competitive - especially if your school is being outspent for talent on NIL?

I don't think a team has to throw the ball 40 times a game to be competitive. I think it matters more how you throw and when you throw- a more creative passing attack if you will.

we've all seen it: 3rd-&-8. Gophers run up the middle for 3 yards. Now it's 4th-&-5 and Fleck says "we can't go for it on 4th down because the distance was too far."

well, the distance was too far because of the conservative play call on 3rd down.

there are times when I truly believe that Fleck's coaching philosophy makes it more difficult for the Gophers to compete and win games. You can be successful with that style if you have the talent to make it work. NIL and the portal make it more difficult to acquire that talent. If the coach's philosophy continues to hinder the offense and game strategy, that in turn makes it even more difficult.

that's where I'm coming from.
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I think he sometimes runs on 3rd and 8 because he didn't trust the QB to make a play in that situation, at that point in the game.

Did you get the feeling that Fleck's philosophy on offense hampered Zach Terrell or Tanner Morgan, and kept either of them from realizing their potential?
 



RememberMurray said:
I think he sometimes runs on 3rd and 8 because he didn't trust the QB to make a play in that situation, at that point in the game.

Did you get the feeling that Fleck's philosophy on offense hampered Zach Terrell or Tanner Morgan, and kept either of them from realizing their potential?
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that's part of my point.

Fleck's system works when he has the talent to make it work. give me better talent and I'll look like a better coach. this year's team for various reasons didn't have the same talent, but was running the same system.

a coach has to adapt to the circumstances.

and as far as that QB he didn't trust - Fleck recruited that QB. Fleck hired the coaches who coached that QB. He has to accept some of the responsibility when things don't work.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
that's part of my point.

Fleck's system works when he has the talent to make it work. give me better talent and I'll look like a better coach. this year's team for various reasons didn't have the same talent, but was running the same system.

a coach has to adapt to the circumstances.

and as far as that QB he didn't trust - Fleck recruited that QB. Fleck hired the coaches who coached that QB. He has to accept some of the responsibility when things don't work.
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I absolutely agree that he must accept the responsibility. As far as I can see, he has.

People hate it when he says, "It's on me", but it most certainly is on him, and he knows it. He knows where the buck stops.

Fleck made a hard choice and a successful move when he fired Robb Smith and promoted Joe Rossi.

Now, he's taken the first step to address another problem: he's offered a transfer/portal QB. And I doubt that will be his only move.

Let's see how this shakes out. I don't think Fleck likes finishing 5-7 any more than we do.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
that's part of my point.

Fleck's system works when he has the talent to make it work. give me better talent and I'll look like a better coach. this year's team for various reasons didn't have the same talent, but was running the same system.

a coach has to adapt to the circumstances.

and as far as that QB he didn't trust - Fleck recruited that QB. Fleck hired the coaches who coached that QB. He has to accept some of the responsibility when things don't work.
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What kind of system could he have pivoted to that would’ve been less talent dependent for results?
 



gopherdudepart2 said:
Elected my butt. Those types of decision's always come from higher management. This means the AD and department strongly hinted or suggested to not spend this money. That is not a PJ decision that is a Coyle and above decision from the U of M. I doubt Fleck if he was given an increased pool to pay assistants, that he would willfully choose not to use it.
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Which would explain the extra 700K in the budget for experienced help. No takers.
 


beavergopher said:
Not really.
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I know some fans take the attitude that coaches don't care if they get fired because of the buyout but that truly couldn't be farther from the truth.

So how do you figure Fleck doesn't have more to lose than the rest of us sitting behind our keyboards?
 

RememberMurray said:
Yeah, it's a familiar argument — so familiar it borders on conventional wisdom.

But if you want to make a case for exactly how changes in NIL and the portal mean a team must throw more passes, I'll listen. I might just be slow on this point; I don't see a direct connection.
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Your "pass more" comment piqued my interest. I felt that the Gophs had been passing more this season but never checked. It turns out the pass mix ratio was higher than any of Fleck's seasons, they just weren't good enough at it. I think my perception was skewed by poor performances in second halves where the offense had a fair share of bad passes and 3-n-outs in key moments (e.g. Illinois).

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Panthadad2 said:
Your "pass more" comment piqued my interest. I felt that the Gophs had been passing more this season but never checked. It turns out the pass mix ratio was higher than any of Fleck's seasons, they just weren't good enough at it. I think my perception was skewed by poor performances in second halves where the offense had a fair share of bad passes and 3-n-outs in key moments (e.g. Illinois).

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Very interesting. thanks for finding and posting this.

Substantially more pass-oriented in 2023 than in 2019.
 

RememberMurray said:
Very interesting. thanks for finding and posting this.

Substantially more pass-oriented in 2023 than in 2019.
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That trend tells me that Fleck was attempting to "change his best" but was not yet successful. Some of it is not yet possessing the players to get it done (QB was an issue). Some of it is on coaching; this probably includes both a new OC and also includes Fleck who still has impulses to predictably revert to overusing the run game in key moments without the talent to grind out multiple first downs. I hope this season was aberration.
 

Panthadad2 said:
That trend tells me that Fleck was attempting to "change his best" but was not yet successful. Some of it is not yet possessing the players to get it done (QB was an issue). Some of it is on coaching; this probably includes both a new OC and also includes Fleck who still has impulses to predictably revert to overusing the run game in key moments without the talent to grind out multiple first downs. I hope this season was aberration.
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I don't agree that we don't have "the talent to grind out first downs".

I think our talent level is substantially higher in the run game than it is in the pass game... and that, right there, is a huge problem — the elephant in the room..

Fleck sees this, and is now at the beginning of the process in addressing it. His first step was offering a transfer QB (which I believe Fleck has never done before). This will not be the last step.

The design of the offense needs a drastic overhaul. I keep pining for something along the lines of the 2019 offense. We were still run-first back then (as your chart proves), but we had an efficient, complimentary passing attack as well.

It should be doable. No reason why not.
 

RememberMurray said:
I don't agree that we don't have "the talent to grind out first downs".
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A lot of that talent was standing on the sidelines injured, and even those players couldn't produce first downs seemingly at will like Mo could. Fleck (or the OC) still seemed to play like he had Mo in the backfield in key moments. Granted, some of that may have been because the passing game was unreliable.

I agree, there has obviously been a transition period.
 

RememberMurray said:
I absolutely agree that he must accept the responsibility. As far as I can see, he has.

People hate it when he says, "It's on me", but it most certainly is on him, and he knows it. He knows where the buck stops.

Fleck made a hard choice and a successful move when he fired Robb Smith and promoted Joe Rossi.

Now, he's taken the first step to address another problem: he's offered a transfer/portal QB. And I doubt that will be his only move.

Let's see how this shakes out. I don't think Fleck likes finishing 5-7 any more than we do.
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I agree. This team was just young on defense after some injuries and their QB played like he belonged in the NCC.

They need a kid that can either sit and hit on his passes with accuracy, or a guy that is dual threat. If it were me, I would see if I can find that pocket passer through he portal and then recruit a few guys that also are seen as a threat with their legs.
 

Panthadad2 said:
That trend tells me that Fleck was attempting to "change his best" but was not yet successful. Some of it is not yet possessing the players to get it done (QB was an issue). Some of it is on coaching; this probably includes both a new OC and also includes Fleck who still has impulses to predictably revert to overusing the run game in key moments without the talent to grind out multiple first downs. I hope this season was aberration.
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WR/TE were an issue in this as well with I believe it was 24 drops on the season according to the graphic during the Wisconsin game and at least 3-4 of those drops would have been touchdowns. Some of those drops may have been in part due to Athan but many of them were really good throws that hit the receivers in the hands and should have been caught.
 

Go Gophs said:
I agree. This team was just young on defense after some injuries and their QB played like he belonged in the NCC.

They need a kid that can either sit and hit on his passes with accuracy, or a guy that is dual threat. If it were me, I would see if I can find that pocket passer through he portal and then recruit a few guys that also are seen as a threat with their legs.
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History shows that a Zach Terrell-type can run a Fleck offense quite well. Tanner Morgan certainly led his share of wins. We don't necessarily have to have a Drake Maye-level talent.
 

MNVCGUY said:
WR/TE were an issue in this as well with I believe it was 24 drops on the season according to the graphic during the Wisconsin game and at least 3-4 of those drops would have been touchdowns. Some of those drops may have been in part due to Athan but many of them were really good throws that hit the receivers in the hands and should have been caught.
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FWIW, PFF had the Gopher receiver corps (including all positions WR/TE/RB) graded #9 in the BG10 and the passing/QB at #11. So, yeah, both need to be better.
 

Panthadad2 said:
FWIW, PFF had the Gopher receiver corps (including all positions WR/TE/RB) graded #9 in the BG10 and the passing/QB at #11. So, yeah, both need to be better.
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One minor quibble (with PJ, not you) - the Gophers during all of PJ's tenure seems uninterested in throwing to the RB's. Nubin had what, 4 catches this past game and I'd be surprised if that wasn't the most in quite a long time to a RB. Tyler seemed like a perfect player to throw a few swing passes/screens to each game, but instead they tried to run him up the middle, which is likely he will be the least successful. There is so much meat left on the bone in this offense it's maddening.

Not to bring up old wounds, but look how differently Bucky is being utilized at Oregon than here (yes, I understand they run a very different offense, I'm merely suggesting when you have players with a certain skill set to try and utilize them).

Capt7ure.JPG
 

Word said:
Fleck has a lot more to lose than any of us, that is for sure.
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I guess his reputation, yes. Fleck has been paid hansomely so I'm pretty sure he'll be OK.
 

PMWinSTP said:
I guess his reputation, yes. Fleck has been paid hansomely so I'm pretty sure he'll be OK.
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Sure, but what I've learned is that most people prefer to keep making ridiculous amounts of money rather than not. Otherwise why wouldn't he just quit right now?
 

forever a gopher said:
One minor quibble (with PJ, not you) - the Gophers during all of PJ's tenure seems uninterested in throwing to the RB's. Nubin had what, 4 catches this past game and I'd be surprised if that wasn't the most in quite a long time to a RB. Tyler seemed like a perfect player to throw a few swing passes/screens to each game, but instead they tried to run him up the middle, which is likely he will be the least successful. There is so much meat left on the bone in this offense it's maddening.
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Agreed. I thought Taylor had some explosive plays in the passing game earlier this year too. Instead of bitching about Fleck's various comments uselessly and endlessly, this is the type of question I wish sports writers would ask. I mean, how hard would it be to tactfully ask Fleck about the philosophy, advantages and disadvantages of sending an RB into pass patterns?
 

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