Fired Colo HC Jon Embree on black coaches: "We get bad jobs and no time to fix it."

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dpodoll68 said:
David Shaw
Kevin Sumlin
Charlie Strong
Mike London
Ruffin McNeill
Turner Gill
Randy Shannon
Tyrone Willingham
Dennis Green

All are/were black coaches given pretty decent-to-great jobs. That negates the "we get bad jobs" part. All were given adequate time to build a program, and the ones who did a bad job were shown the door. That negates the "no time to fix it" part. David Shaw and Kevin Sumlin, for example, are both coaching Top 10 teams as we speak and neither one has been given his pink slip on the basis of his skin color.

Embree was right - he did get a bad job, and he got no time to fix it. Neither of those things have anything to do with his race. By most anyone's account, he was thoroughly unqualified to receive the job (think Brewster with far, far less experience) and did a terrible job once he got it. Again, he got fired because he sucked, not because he's black. He had a very short leash and very short job duration because he epically, historically sucked - not because he's black.
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Maybe this is why he felt like he did. We don't know what he asked for or what resources he got. Nor do we know what kind of support he got. BTW How many of the coaches you mentioned actually coached at Colorado?
 

Sportsfan24 said:
You make some good points about the nature of college football. I would had two things:

1. I hate the term race card; the user of this term reduces the legitmacy of a person claim without having to justify their belief to it being a non issue (you did offer up some valid reasons). We would not use the term rape card or child abuse card?

2. Like a coach of any racial make-up, you will take whatever job you can get. However, I don't believe it's fair to say to a black coach who won't get the same opportunities as his counter part "if you don't like the one messed up opportunity you get, don't take it."

I would tell the coach; My man, you took the job knowing you had to be twice as good to be considered equal. Why are you complaining? Not only were you not twice as good....you may have been twice as bad. There are plenty of brothers with twice your resume who aren't getting jobs...have a coke and a smile and shut the "heck" up.
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I don't care for the term 'race card' either, but there really isn't a better term. Embree is pretty much flat out saying that black coaches get the worst jobs and have a much shorter leash. Major generalization that points directly at race as the primary reason instead of the product on the field. Now I'm not blaming him for taking the job, but Colorado didn't exactly jump from a lower conference into the Pac-12. They came from the Big 12. I simply don't buy that he walked into a situation where they had absolutely no talent to work with. The Fresno St. game sticks out like a sore thumb. At what point does he admit that coaching had something to do with the poor on field showing?
 

I don't know enough about the situation in Colorado to comment on whether race was a factor in his getting fired there.

But I do wonder how many coaches have been fired with 2 or fewer years on the job and no current or pending (Auburn) NCAA investigations and/or sanctions? My guess is few to none. If that is the case, then a black head coach has a much higher statistical chance of being terminated before bringing his first year of recruits onto the field for senior day. Of course, this is too small a sample size to be valid.

I DO NOT like this trend at all. I think a coach needs a minimum of 4 years (ideally 5) to field his own team before getting axed (unless he has made some violation or other transgression).
 

Go Gophers Rah said:
I don't know enough about the situation in Colorado to comment on whether race was a factor in his getting fired there.

But I do wonder how many coaches have been fired with 2 or fewer years on the job and no current or pending (Auburn) NCAA investigations and/or sanctions? My guess is few to none. If that is the case, then a black head coach has a much higher statistical chance of being terminated before bringing his first year of recruits onto the field for senior day. Of course, this is too small a sample size to be valid.

I DO NOT like this trend at all. I think a coach needs a minimum of 4 years (ideally 5) to field his own team before getting axed (unless he has made some violation or other transgression).
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I agree that two years is not nearly enough. I just think pointing to race as the reason for his termination is crazy. Worst season in the Buffalos history........if the AD doesn't see Embree as the way forward, you move on. Let's keep in mind, the AD was the guy who gave Embree the job in the first place. I cannot imagine that it was easy for him to terminate the coach who he hired two years before. You do what is in the best interest of the program. This Colorado team was downright abysmal and Embree likely wasn't the answer.
 

Or it could be said that the only reason anyone listens to anything a fired second year coach says is because he is black. Lots of fired second year white head coaches bitch too but nobody gives a sh*t what they have to say.
Hell, even Mason complained he didn't get enough time.
 


Just so everyone has an image of how their year went, they lost half their games by more than 30 points.

Regular Season Date vs Score
9/1/12 COLST L 17-22
9/8/12 SACST L 28-30
9/15/12 @FRSST L 14-69
9/22/12 @WSHST W 35-34
9/29/12 UCLA L 14-42
10/11/12 ARZST L 17-51
10/20/12 @USC L 6-50
10/27/12 @ORE L 14-70
11/3/12 STAN L 0-48
11/10/12 @ARZ L 31-56
11/17/12 WASH L 3-38
11/23/12 UTAH L 35-42
 

John Galt said:
Just so everyone has an image of how their year went, they lost half their games by more than 30 points.

Regular Season Date vs Score
9/1/12 COLST L 17-22
9/8/12 SACST L 28-30
9/15/12 @FRSST L 14-69
9/22/12 @WSHST W 35-34
9/29/12 UCLA L 14-42
10/11/12 ARZST L 17-51
10/20/12 @USC L 6-50
10/27/12 @ORE L 14-70
11/3/12 STAN L 0-48
11/10/12 @ARZ L 31-56
11/17/12 WASH L 3-38
11/23/12 UTAH L 35-42
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Year 3 would have been magical.
 

Bet Leach is pissed his squad was the only team that managed to lose to them this season. But yeah I knew Colorado was bad but didn't know they were THAT bad. Still think despite all of that, that 2 years is just not enough time. For as bad as things are now you are just setting the next guy up back even farther.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Bet Leach is pissed his squad was the only team that managed to lose to them this season. But yeah I knew Colorado was bad but didn't know they were THAT bad. Still think despite all of that, that 2 years is just not enough time. For as bad as things are now you are just setting the next guy up back even farther.
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I doubt he is too mad, they did beat Washington to end the season with a trophy win.
 



I would like to think that race has nothing to do with coaches being hired/fired in this day and age, but I'm sure it still does have some influence.

As for this specific instance, if he's going to complain about race being a factor, then he also needs to explain how he got the job in the first place. Black or white, he was not very qualified. If race was a big reason for him being fired so quickly, then you would think race would have also affected the hiring process to begin with.

As others have said, Colorado was very bad this year. It's one thing to take a step back in year one because of all the changes, but to get even worse in year two is very telling. However, I do think he probably should have had another year.

Someone asked if Kill should be fired if the Gophers had a year like this in year two. The difference between Kill and Embree (other than race) is that Kill has proven he can rebuild. Regardless of the level, he has done it. Turner Gil was the same way and should have gotten more time. If Brewster's second year was as bad as his first year, I could see the argument that he should be fired, just like Embree was.

I honestly just think it has more to do with the lack of patience in today's sports world. There's a lot of money to be made, so patience is very low. That is why hiring a guy to a top tier college football program that has to learn on the fly because they have little previous experience is a mistake in my opinion. I liked the Brewster hire at the time it was made because we took a chance. And who knows, he very well may have been a good coach after 10 years. But you just can't have a guy learning how to be a head coach at a multi-million dollar football program.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I would like to think that race has nothing to do with coaches being hired/fired in this day and age, but I'm sure it still does have some influence.

As for this specific instance, if he's going to complain about race being a factor, then he also needs to explain how he got the job in the first place. Black or white, he was not very qualified. If race was a big reason for him being fired so quickly, then you would think race would have also affected the hiring process to begin with.

As others have said, Colorado was very bad this year. It's one thing to take a step back in year one because of all the changes, but to get even worse in year two is very telling. However, I do think he probably should have had another year.

Someone asked if Kill should be fired if the Gophers had a year like this in year two. The difference between Kill and Embree (other than race) is that Kill has proven he can rebuild. Regardless of the level, he has done it. Turner Gil was the same way and should have gotten more time. If Brewster's second year was as bad as his first year, I could see the argument that he should be fired, just like Embree was.

I honestly just think it has more to do with the lack of patience in today's sports world. There's a lot of money to be made, so patience is very low. That is why hiring a guy to a top tier college football program that has to learn on the fly because they have little previous experience is a mistake in my opinion. I liked the Brewster hire at the time it was made because we took a chance. And who knows, he very well may have been a good coach after 10 years. But you just can't have a guy learning how to be a head coach at a multi-million dollar football program.
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Well said and I couldn't agree more. Where Embree lost all credibility with me is based on two things.

1. Like you said, his resume does not justify him getting this job. For whatever reason someone decided to take a chance on him. And for obvious reasons they decided that a mistake of major proportions was made.

2. If Gene Chizic (sp) can be fired 2 years after winning a National Championship, there really is nothing to be said about a coach who went 1-fer with embarassing loses getting fired. I certainly believe he should have been given another year because like my man Brew, when you hire a inexperienced coach you should expect some growing pains. HOWEVER, based on how Embrees team performed in was going to be fired sooner are later.....so why not sooner?
 


Sportsfan24 said:
Well said and I couldn't agree more. Where Embree lost all credibility with me is based on two things.

1. Like you said, his resume does not justify him getting this job. For whatever reason someone decided to take a chance on him. And for obvious reasons they decided that a mistake of major proportions was made.

2. If Gene Chizic (sp) can be fired 2 years after winning a National Championship, there really is nothing to be said about a coach who went 1-fer with embarassing loses getting fired. I certainly believe he should have been given another year because like my man Brew, when you hire a inexperienced coach you should expect some growing pains. HOWEVER, based on how Embrees team performed in was going to be fired sooner are later.....so why not sooner?
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We expected growing pains with Brew and got them his first year when we were 1-11. What we didn't expect was a
1-7 start in year 4 that was on pace to be one of the worst teams in Gopher history, rivaled by his 2007 squad.
 



I've lived in Denver for just over three years and in those three years the CU football team has become darn close to irrelevant in this market. Despite the pathetic thing they call a division one PAC-12 football team, the love and passion for the CU Buffs receive from their alumni is unbelievable. More passion than what I've seen from Gopher alums here in Denver, Minneapolis and throughout the country. I guess you could say that I've adopted them as my second NCAA team.

Personally, the CU administration made the right choice in firing Embree. The program is spiraling downwards and out of control, the Buffs became the butt of too many jokes in radio/magazines/newspaper/etc, and when the team has recent losses to their rival, CSU, it is time to make a change. I went to a game a few weeks ago and there might've only been 300 students in attendance and just under half the stadium being full with fans. My buddy, a CU alum, wanted to leave at halftime, not because of the score, but because the fan support at the stadium was too embarrassing for him to be there. Pathetic.

The reason CU hired Embree was because they (alums/admin/donors) wanted one of their own to come in, fix the program and sell everything there is to love about Boulder (and there is lots). Unfortunately, one of their own wasn't able to get the job done. Time to move on and bring in a new coach with some type of pedigree. Speaking of that, sports radio personalities are trying to drum up support for the administration to go after Jim Tressel.

Anyone else noticing a trend? Don't hire TE coaches from the NFL to be head coaches in the NCAA!!

Go Gophers!
 

"I agree the ratio of black to white head coaches is way out of whack in college football."

Be careful when citing racial ratios in sports. By that logic, there would be few black NBA, NFL, and D1 basketball and football players. What's so hard about recognizing that the jobs (and playing time) go to and stay with the most qualified people?
 

Should the number of black head coaches be based on the number of black college football players or the percent of blacks in America?
 

Of course it should be based on the number of black college football players. Anyone who has played college football is inherently over-qualified to become a coach. Belichik is only keeping the seat warm for Jared Allen, an obvious football mastermind who surely will have a meteoric rise up the coaching ranks when he retires.
 

Mick Turition said:
Of course it should be based on the number of black college football players. Anyone who has played college football is inherently over-qualified to become a coach. Belichik is only keeping the seat warm for Jared Allen, an obvious football mastermind who surely will have a meteoric rise up the coaching ranks when he retires.
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Allen's targetting Jamarcus Russell as his Offensive Coodinator.
 

Mick Turition said:
Or it could be said that the only reason anyone listens to anything a fired second year coach says is because he is black. Lots of fired second year white head coaches bitch too but nobody gives a sh*t what they have to say.
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To which fired second year white head coaches are you referring? Name one who wasn't either titled interim or wasn't the subject of an ongoing or pending NCAA investigation?
 

Go Gophers Rah said:
To which fired second year white head coaches are you referring? Name one who wasn't either titled interim or wasn't the subject of an ongoing or pending NCAA investigation?
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Rob Ianello - Akron last year. I think he had 2 or 3 wins over his two year coaching stint.
 

It shocks me that a coach who literally posted a single digit winning percentage this year can think that his firing had anything to do with anything besides his eleven losses.
 

How about the guy at Auburn, wins Natl title and 2 yrs. later fired. Because he is white. Get off this race crap, you win you have a job you don't, you get fired, red green yellow or black.
 

Embree did make one good point

I was watching sports center this morning and they responded to one of the comments that he made.

Embree stated that black head coaches don't get 2nd chances.

Upon examination by ESPN they discovered that since 1979, 41 black coaches have been hired at the D1 now FBS level. Of the 41, 13 remain at their schools. The rest were fired. Of those that were fired, Tyrone Willingham is the only one to ever get a 2nd job at that that level.

Like my grandmother use to say "even a broke clock is right twice a day." My first reaction when I heard him say the things he said, was that he wasn't the one who should be saying them because a argument could be made that his resume didn't dictate that he should have been hired in the first place and his firing was more than justifiable.

After further review; if you consider the fact that black coaches seldom get that opportunity and only one has ever gotten a 2nd chance, I can see why others don't dare broach a subject that desperately needs to be discussed.
 

I wonder how often white coaches get fired from a bcs team and get rehired by one.
 


What a completely awesome discussion.

Let's face the facts. Football is king for most academic institutions. If there's one thing we should have learned in the recent juggling of conference alliances, football runs the show with basketball taking a major backseat. Bill Self at Kansas said it perfectly, "Football is driving the buggy" in this case, in reference to none of the conferences desperately pursuing primarily basketball dominated schools, like Kansas.

So when discussing race in regards to Head Coaching decisions, you're essentially saying that a school would rather LOSE with a non-black coach then WIN with a black coach.

Do you have any idea how absolutely f'n ridiculous that sounds? I'm running a major school, I NEED the football team to be good for the betterment of the entire University; I'm NOT going to hire a competent head coach because of his skin color??? That entire notion is offensive and disgusting. Period.

In this day and age, with all of the media scrutiny and available information, everybody in college football knows not ONLY who the rockstar Asst Head Coaches and Coordinators are, they know who most of the elite position coaches are. It becomes abundantly clear EARLY in a coach's career who just plain HAS IT and who doesn't. Head coaching candidates don't get job interviews out of the blue.

If you're continuing to argue that minority candidates aren't given adequate opportunities for Head Coaching gigs, just stop it. You're embarassing yourself. This is a business, and it's about WINNING. If you can get the job done, you'll have a job. It's not difficult to grasp.
 

Weiss, Tuberville, Pasqualoni, Rich Rod, Mike Leach are the other ones coaching right now that I could think of. They all have credentials that justified a rehire in my opinion though. Do guys like Embree, Joker Phillips, Turner Gill, Randy Shannon, and Ron Prince deserve to be hired again by a bcs team?
 

Sportsfan24 said:
I was watching sports center this morning and they responded to one of the comments that he made.

Embree stated that black head coaches don't get 2nd chances.

Upon examination by ESPN they discovered that since 1979, 41 black coaches have been hired at the D1 now FBS level. Of the 41, 13 remain at their schools. The rest were fired. Of those that were fired, Tyrone Willingham is the only one to ever get a 2nd job at that that level.

Like my grandmother use to say "even a broke clock is right twice a day." My first reaction when I heard him say the things he said, was that he wasn't the one who should be saying them because a argument could be made that his resume didn't dictate that he should have been hired in the first place and his firing was more than justifiable.

After further review; if you consider the fact that black coaches seldom get that opportunity and only one has ever gotten a 2nd chance, I can see why others don't dare broach a subject that desperately needs to be discussed.
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Yeah, I saw that too. It is a pretty crazy number. I have a feeling Turner Gill will get another chance somewhere. He's at Liberty right now.

But honestly, everything else in the Sportscenter/Stephen A. Smith clip made me shake my head for a different reason.

They brought up how Dan Hawkins got five years. That's such an idiotic comparison for so many reasons.
1. Hawkins went to a bowl game in his second year. That right there bought him several more seasons.
2. He never had as bad of a year as Embree did this year. It was a historically bad year for Colorado.
3. Hawkins had won 11+ games in three different seasons with Boise St. He was a proven head coach who had done it before. He's going to be given more time than someone who hasn't done it before. I look at it like this: you are the head coach of an NFL team. In one scenario you have a former All-Pro QB. In the other scenario, your starting QB is a rookie 3rd rounder. Both of them struggle and put up the same bad numbers through the first part of the season. Who are you going to bench more quickly if all other things are considered equal? The rookie of course.

Then Stephen A. says something like "Having such a short leash only seems to happen to the minority coaches". How about actually doing some research first? Rob Ianello was just fired after two seasons from Akron but no one made a peep about that. Or Gene Chizik who just got fired after winning the National Championship just two years ago. I think that's even worse than the Embree, Gill, or Ianello firings because not only had Chizik proven he could win at the highest level, he did it at that school.

Is there a problem with coaches and race in college football? Probably. But this instance has nothing to do with race in my opinion. It seems Embree is just trying to deflect the fact that he sucked as a head coach. The getting a second chance thing is alarming, but, again, I don't think in Embree's case it has anything to do with race. If he doesn't get a chance at a large program again, it will be because he has very little head coaching experience, and when he was a head coach he failed miserably. He'll have to prove he can do it at FCS and/or low level FBS programs first. Same goes with Tim Brewster in my opinion. Only way he ever gets a chance again is if he can prove it elsewhere first.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Yeah, I saw that too. It is a pretty crazy number. I have a feeling Turner Gill will get another chance somewhere. He's at Liberty right now.

But honestly, everything else in the Sportscenter/Stephen A. Smith clip made me shake my head for a different reason.

They brought up how Dan Hawkins got five years. That's such an idiotic comparison for so many reasons.

1. Hawkins went to a bowl game in his second year. That right there bought him several more seasons.
2. He never had as bad of a year as Embree did this year. It was a historically bad year for
Colorado.
3. Hawkins had won 11+ games in three different seasons with Boise St. He was a proven head coach who had done it before. He's going to be given more time than someone who hasn't done it
before. I look at it like this: you are the head coach of an NFL team. In one scenario you have a former All-Pro QB. In the other scenario, your starting QB is a rookie 3rd rounder. Both of them
struggle and put up the same bad numbers through the first part of the season. Who are you going
to bench more quickly if all other things are considered equal? The rookie of course.

Then Stephen A. says something like "Having such a short leash only seems to happen to the
minority coaches". How about actually doing some research first? Rob Ianello was just fired after
two seasons from Akron but no one made a peep about that. Or Gene Chizik who just got fired
after winning the National Championship just two years ago. I think that's even worse than the
Embree, Gill, or Ianello firings because not only had Chizik proven he could win at the highest
level, he did it at that school.

Is there a problem with coaches and race in college football? Probably. But this instance has
nothing to do with race in my opinion. It seems Embree is just trying to deflect the fact that he
sucked as a head coach. The getting a second chance thing is alarming, but, again, I don't think in
Embree's case it has anything to do with race. If he doesn't get a chance at a large program again,
it will be because he has very little head coaching experience, and when he was a head coach he
failed miserably. He'll have to prove he can do it at FCS and/or low level FBS programs first. Same
goes with Tim Brewster in my opinion. Only way he ever gets a chance again is if he can prove it
elsewhere first.
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I agree. Embree and the plight of black head coaches should be two separate conversations.
 

btowngopher said:
Weiss, Tuberville, Pasqualoni, Rich Rod, Mike Leach are the other ones coaching right now that I could think of. They all have credentials that justified a rehire in my opinion though. Do guys like Embree, Joker Phillips, Turner Gill, Randy Shannon, and Ron Prince deserve to be hired again by a bcs team?
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I can't figure out why he wouldn't get another shot at some point. I think Gill will get another shot as well. Can't conjecture about the other guys.
 

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