ESPN: What we learned in the Big Ten bowls: "Minnesota is on the way up."

[short ornery norwegian]

Oops - forgot to add this.

A 6-6 record against stronger competition may be more impressive than a 7-5 or 8-4 record against weaker competition. You can't judge a program strictly by wins and losses.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Getting back to the issue of expectations.

I certainly do not think that the U should mandate a certain # of wins for next year - just too many variables involved. Progress is not only measured in the # of victories - (don't get me wrong- I want to see the U win, but)
-progress involves a lot of intangibles. Is the team showing progress by playing harder, playing smarter, and being more competitive? A 3-point loss to Nebraska in a close, competitive game would show me a lot more than a 30-point win over some non-conference team.

My gut tells me that if the team shows improvement in the intangibles, the victories will follow. How many victories, and how soon? I can't say. I just don't want to lock in the program through some kind of ultimatim, where "if they don't win 3 B1G games this year, Kill has failed." Let's leave that to Reusse and his pals in the media.

I agree with you that you can't say win these games or else but you are leaving ticket sales and fan support out of the equation. You may see some on the field improvement from year to year but if that improvement doesn't translate into wins than the casual fans go away and you start to see more and more empty seats at the stadium because let's face it in the end the only thing the casual fan cares about is winning. It is just a reality of the way things are now if the W/L record is not showing signs of improvement in year 4 then odds are there will be a new coach in town.

The overall expectations are not crazy here. He doesn't have to win a Big Ten Title or contend for the National Championship but he does need to push that conference record out to .500 or better at some point if he wants to be here for the long haul. 2-6 conference finishes are tolerated right now and probably will be next year but beyond that some improvement in record is going to be expected.

 

[Killjoy]

EG#9 - My question to you is this, what do you mean by mandatory? If we only win 2 games in conf next year, are you suggesting that we fire Coach Kill? Or what are you suggesting? I have some ideas or thoughts I could bring up, but I'll wait to see how you respond to what I've asked you already, first.

That is the question. What the hell do you mean by mandate and what are you going to do about if it doesn't happen? The people here who are mandating this must have never been married. Is the logic that if you mandate it, it will then have to happen? If life was only that simple.

 

[scools12]

So that gave me the impression that Jerry Kill wants this job to be a longer term kind of job, because he was willing to go somewhere that was going to take longer to build up.

He took this job because it provided a pay increase, a chance to coach in a major conference and I believe no other job was offered to him. I also believe he has stated the program was in worse shape than he thought and if he knew that he might not have taken the job.

A 6-6 record against stronger competition may be more impressive than a 7-5 or 8-4 record against weaker competition.

Kill's non-conference scheduling practices might say otherwise.

 

[MNVCGUY]

What in Jerry Kill's background makes me think he is here for the long haul??

Thats actually a very good question. Although I did like Winnipegopher's response, to be honest his health was not one of the factors in my coming to that idea/conclusion. Honestly, it was simply that Minnesota is not the kind of place someone goes to get a better job. It's more of a longer term project. So that gave me the impression that Jerry Kill wants this job to be a longer term kind of job, because he was willing to go somewhere that was going to take longer to build up.

Also, I guess I didn't think of, or worry about, whether he'd move on to another job if he SUCCEEDED in building us back up. If he succeeds, and takes a better job, then we'll be in a better position to get a higher profile replacement. And although his health issues were not in the forefront of my mind, they may have been in the background of my thinking and I do know that I took into consideration that since this was his 8th gig, and each previous gig was at least 2 years in length, that he's been coaching for at least 16 years, but closer to what? 25-30? So another 5 or so here, and he's going to be getting up there in age. And maybe part of my reason for saying what I did, was just trying to be positive about the whole situation?

I think it is tough to assign motivations. On the surface Kill was not a high demand coaching candidate, we turned to him when we could't find anyone else out of the top prospects, went to him offering 2-3 times more than he was making at NIU and he jumped at the chance. He had a great opportunity and he took it just like 99.9% of the other coaches out there would have done in his shoes.

While I don't think Kill is using the U of M to try and land a top high profile gig I also don't think he woudl stay loyal to the U if one of those jobs came calling. It is just the nature of coaching in this day and age, you look out for yourself and you get paid while you can because it doesn't take much for the school to send you packing.

 

[nsmike]

The biggest reason a 2 win conference schedule nest year, might be acceptable, is that Illinois and Purdue fall off the schedule and Penn State and Indiana replace them. I would like to think, that three or more conference wins next year is achievable, but I'm cognizant that the schedule is tougher.

 

[MNVCGUY]

The biggest reason a 2 win conference schedule nest year, might be acceptable, is that Illinois and Purdue fall off the schedule and Penn State and Indiana replace them. I would like to think, that three or more conference wins next year is achievable, but I'm cognizant that the schedule is tougher.

2 conference wins next year won't be the death of Kill but it will put him on the hot seat to show some record improvement in year 4. If the team misses a bowl game next season after getting to one this year that will not play well with the fans or administration at all.

 

[dpodoll68]

The biggest reason a 2 win conference schedule nest year, might be acceptable, is that Illinois and Purdue fall off the schedule and Penn State and Indiana replace them. I would like to think, that three or more conference wins next year is achievable, but I'm cognizant that the schedule is tougher.

Call me crazy, but I think that exchange is a wash at best, and easier than this year's if anything. Indiana is recruiting well, but you don't win with freshmen in football, and Penn St. will likely only get worse over the next few years. I'd say 2012 Illinois and 2013 Indiana are about a wash, and 2012 Purdue and 2013 Penn St. are about a wash, with this year's Purdue squad possibly being slightly better.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Yes "needs to" is too strong.

If Kill doesn't get 3 conference wins next I do not think he should be fired. Winning 2 or less conference games next year though IMO would make year 4 rather important for Kill and his staff to get a 5th year.

I think that 2 or less conference wins next year would be disappointing and would make year 4 very important. And I think most people agree with that as well.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Call me crazy

<img src="http://themodernjedi.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/crazy.jpg">

 

[mplsbadger]

We saw such a big improvement in defense this year that I'll be happy with a similar performance next year. Because of all the change at corner and linebacker I think matching this year's performance will be noteworthy. I think the real improvement must come on offense. With PN, deeper more experienced line, our two backs, and some young receivers getting healthy and getting better they need to do in '13 what the D did in '12. If this happens we should win more games (average more points on O - yield same points on D). The special teams should be asked to take the same step forward.

Wait for '14 then for the big results - big playmakers, great depth, great 3rd down conversions, any of the three teams can win you a game, etc.

That's how I see it. So I won't judge next year's team by their record, I'll judge them in comparison to this year's team. Judged that way, the '12 team was a success.

 

[#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat]

Ok, thanks everyone, it seems none of us disagree too much about this, it is just that we all have different ways of saying the same thing. We all expect to see some improvement. Hopefully that translates into more wins, or at the very least, the same # of wins with our losses at least being closer games. Seems everyone is willing to give Kill one more year with less than spectacular results, as long as there is some sign of improvement and that he follows that up with improvement by 2014. Seems we can all agree about that for now, and we can wait until next year to argue whether there was improvement or not, etc.. lol

As for what Kill's motivations for coming here were, it honestly really doesn't matter. No one is going to come and try to steal him away from us unless he is successful, and then if we really decide we want to keep him, well, we might need to do whatever is needed to keep him. The Big Ten is showing everyone that they feel money is very important, and that football revenue is important, and that fb revenue comes when teams are successful, so Big Ten teams might start paying coaches more, to keep in step with the SEC?! But it will be a few years before we will have to worry about that. So Kill is really stuck with us, and needs to be successful here to either go out with his reputation as a winning and good coach intact, or to attract the attention of the more attractive jobs if that is his goal? It's his right to do whatever he wants, for whatever reason he wants, honestly, and we just have to hope that what he wants and what he does to get what he wants, results in our program improving significantly.

 

[Killjoy]

I know it is just talk but Kill stated that Minnesota was his last stop. He said he didn't want to go through the process of turning another program around again. But, as somebody pointed out, maybe his next job wouldn't require that he turn that program around. Personally, I am counting on Rebecca to be a person of her word. According to on Kill, she told him that she likes it here and she wasn't moving again. He could leave but she would be staying.

 

[TrapperDoo]

"Needs to" or what? He's fired?

I expect that we beat Iowa, Indiana and Northwestern next year. There may also be a surprise victory over PSU or MSU. We then win a lower tier bowl game and finish the season with 7 or 8 wins. I think the team is improving, but even if you develop a steady march of high level talent into the program it takes a few years for it to pay off.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I know it is just talk but Kill stated that Minnesota was his last stop. He said he didn't want to go through the process of turning another program around again. But, as somebody pointed out, maybe his next job wouldn't require that he turn that program around. Personally, I am counting on Rebecca to be a person of her word. According to on Kill, she told him that she likes it here and she wasn't moving again. He could leave but she would be staying.

Very easy to say that when your husband just got a huge pay raise and a bump up to one of the top conferences. Right now I am sure there is no where else either of them would rather be, but as we all know things change and should the day come when someone is offering to double Jerry's salary again I have a funny feeling Rebecca may decide she would be ok with moving again. As for Kill saying this is his last stop....yeah have you ever heard a coach say the job he just got wasn't his last stop or the place he wanted to be the rest of his career? To say anything but that is to is just stupid because it would instantly turn the fans and media against you.

I do however agree that Kill wouldn't leave for a rebuild job somewhere else. Like Mason I think his days of building are getting to be behind him however I do think that if Kill were fired at some point in the next few years he would take a lower lever rebuilding job to stay in coaching whereas Mason was only jumping back into a top situation. If Kill leaves on his own it will be for a great situation.

 

[Killjoy]

I do find the the various speculations on Kill's future understandable but a little bit bi-polar. Depending on how some people are viewing the program at the moment, they may act like he should be on the hot seat or at one end of the spectrum they are worried if we become too successful Kill will move on. It is certainly amusing to see how quickly peoples feelings change. I for one am not going to worry about it but I am going to enjoy the journey.

 

[e.bigelow]

I do find the the various speculations on Kill's future understandable but a little bit bi-polar. Depending on how some people are viewing the program at the moment, they may act like he should be on the hot seat or at one end of the spectrum they are worried if we become too successful Kill will move on. It is certainly amusing to see how quickly peoples feelings change. I for one am not going to worry about it but I am going to enjoy the journey.

My thoughts exactly Killjoy. Coach is here and not going anywhere for the next season or two at least. So, speculation on whether he will be leaving for a "better" job is a non issue for me.

The fact that people feel he is on the hot seat even a little is a bit out of touch I think. As the true die hard fans we all are here on GH, for the vast majority anywaysm, we all want our team to be the best it can be. I feel that we have all underestimated the problems that were going on in the football program when Brew was let go, I.E. MAJOR academic issues, complete roster issues, etc. I feel, that if Coach Kill had full knowledge of what was going on and what he was up against, (Hind sight is 20-20, I know) he would have chosen to stay at NIU and hold out for an even better position, assuming NIU would have continued it's preformance we saw with him there after he departed. And, as a die hard Gopher fan, it really hurts to admit that.

That being said, I am very pleased with the current trajectory of the program and do really feel that Coach Kill is truly the guy to get us going in the correct direction. Just my thoughts on the situation.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

I do find the the various speculations on Kill's future understandable but a little bit bi-polar. Depending on how some people are viewing the program at the moment, they may act like he should be on the hot seat or at one end of the spectrum they are worried if we become too successful Kill will move on. It is certainly amusing to see how quickly peoples feelings change. I for one am not going to worry about it but I am going to enjoy the journey.

It has been an interesting wide-ranging discussion, hasn't it?!

Kill's not going anywhere. Period. A job that would be a significant step up from Minnesota would more than likely not take him due to the health issues. I just don't see him getting a more lucrative offer than the one he's got. Many thought he wasn't cut out for this job so we'll see.

I'd be more concerned about some of the key assistants/coordinators hitting the road for a chance to run their own program or for promotions. At least one, if not several, of these guys that have been following him around are MAJOR reasons as to why he's had the success he's had. I'm more worried about the wrong one leaving but it's hard to prevent that from happening.

This program is heading in the right direction, and doing it the right way. This is the first time in a LONG time that you can see a foundation being built, on BOTH sides of the ball, and with a sense of continuity. With the talent on the roster and coming in, I see NO reason this team doesn't win 8 or even 9 games in either 2013 or 2014, barring a major change in the coaching staff (multiple departures) or a massive slew of injuries.

 

[John Galt]

This program is heading in the right direction, and doing it the right way. This is the first time in a LONG time that you can see a foundation being built, on BOTH sides of the ball, and with a sense of continuity. With the talent on the roster and coming in, I see NO reason this team doesn't win 8 or even 9 games in either 2013 or 2014, barring a major change in the coaching staff (multiple departures) or a massive slew of injuries.

I like the direction of the program, but I have a hard time seeing 8-9 wins next year. We should be 4-0 again in non-conference, but as of right now we would be the underdog in at least 6 Big Ten games with the possible exceptions being Iowa at home and Indiana away. I think next year there could be significant improvement, but it still might translate to only 6-7 wins.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

I like the direction of the program, but I have a hard time seeing 8-9 wins next year. We should be 4-0 again in non-conference, but as of right now we would be the underdog in at least 6 Big Ten games with the possible exceptions being Iowa at home and Indiana away. I think next year there could be significant improvement, but it still might translate to only 6-7 wins.

Agreed, to an extent. "Underdog" is a loose term. While they may be underdogs, by betting line at least, I don't think they will be significant underdogs in many of those games. I would expect the line, for example, for Wisconsin and Penn State at home to be around a TD or less. Depending on how the season plays out, I'm not even sure the line for road games against Northwestern and Michigan State will be all that major either.

So far, the Gophers really haven't "stolen" a game under Kill; won a game in which they were just plain EXTREMELY unlikely to win. I think that changes in 2013. Win the games they should, win a close one they may have been minor underdogs, and maybe steal one on the road against a Northwestern or MSU.

 

[50PoundHead]

Like most here, I do believe we are headed in the right direction, but I am not as optimistic as many of you. I'm guessing about the same record-wise next season with the play becoming crisper. I think Claeys is a pretty good defensive coordinator and I like the fact that he is aggressive in his play-calling. We'll get burned periodically (like we did late in the Texas Tech game), but this is the first defense I've seen since Tim Rose's (in one of Wacker's last seasons) really attack the offense. Rose didn't do well here, probably because the players didn't fit his scheme, but I've watched too many years of Gopher football where the defense bends and bends and bends and then breaks. It's been like Chinese Water Torture.

A healthier offensive line probably helps us on the other side of the ball next season. I really like Roderick Williams and think he can be a big-time mauler. He doesn't have an overdrive gear, but I think he and Kirkwood will be able to pound on defenses. I do worry about the passing game. I don't see much creativity in how Limegrover runs the passing offense. All the WR patterns seem to either be a fly or a fade. Don't see much in the way of crossing patterns.

I don't agree with Kill all the time, but there's no doubt he's the most organized coach we've had here in a long time and that goes a long way in my book. He may not win big, but at least he knows what he's doing.

 

[mnsports1]

Like most here, I do believe we are headed in the right direction, but I am not as optimistic as many of you. I'm guessing about the same record-wise next season with the play becoming crisper. I think Claeys is a pretty good defensive coordinator and I like the fact that he is aggressive in his play-calling. We'll get burned periodically (like we did late in the Texas Tech game), but this is the first defense I've seen since Tim Rose's (in one of Wacker's last seasons) really attack the offense. Rose didn't do well here, probably because the players didn't fit his scheme, but I've watched too many years of Gopher football where the defense bends and bends and bends and then breaks. It's been like Chinese Water Torture.

A healthier offensive line probably helps us on the other side of the ball next season. I really like Roderick Williams and think he can be a big-time mauler. He doesn't have an overdrive gear, but I think he and Kirkwood will be able to pound on defenses. I do worry about the passing game. I don't see much creativity in how Limegrover runs the passing offense. All the WR patterns seem to either be a fly or a fade. Don't see much in the way of crossing patterns.

I don't agree with Kill all the time, but there's no doubt he's the most organized coach we've had here in a long time and that goes a long way in my book. He may not win big, but at least he knows what he's doing.

I don't think he has really had a QB that he trusted to throw it over the middle.

 

[50PoundHead]

I don't think he as really had a QB that he trusted to throw it over the middle.

I agree that's the case with Gray, but I was hoping for something different with Nelson. I always have to remind myself that Nelson didn't go under center until mid-season. Shortell has a great arm, but he trusted it too much, so I can see why Limegrover probably stayed with the outside stuff. We probably also need to develop a TE who can run those patterns.

 

[John Galt]

Agreed, to an extent. "Underdog" is a loose term. While they may be underdogs, by betting line at least, I don't think they will be significant underdogs in many of those games. I would expect the line, for example, for Wisconsin and Penn State at home to be around a TD or less. Depending on how the season plays out, I'm not even sure the line for road games against Northwestern and Michigan State will be all that major either.

So far, the Gophers really haven't "stolen" a game under Kill; won a game in which they were just plain EXTREMELY unlikely to win. I think that changes in 2013. Win the games they should, win a close one they may have been minor underdogs, and maybe steal one on the road against a Northwestern or MSU.

I think we stole the Iowa game in year 1, but other than that, point taken. I think in year 1 we may have actually been worse than our record, and this year we improved and won the games that we were expected to win. I'll be thrilled with 8 wins next year because it will mean that we beat some good football teams.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I don't think he has really had a QB that he trusted to throw it over the middle.

He also didn't have receivers I would have felt comfortable fighting for the ball in traffic. Bad combination for trying to get creative in the passing game. Problem is not sure if we are going to have those receivers next year either even though the QB will have more experience.

 

[50PoundHead]

He also didn't have receivers I would have felt comfortable fighting for the ball in traffic. Bad combination for trying to get creative in the passing game. Problem is not sure if we are going to have those receivers next year either even though the QB will have more experience.

That too. Barker (when healthy) and Engel both have pretty good speed and quickness, so they can get downfield, but I think both of them lack some of the nuances that very good receivers have. I think Brandon Green had very good technique and it's unfortunate he had to battle through injuries. And, of course, Barker is gone.

 

[mnsports1]

He also didn't have receivers I would have felt comfortable fighting for the ball in traffic. Bad combination for trying to get creative in the passing game. Problem is not sure if we are going to have those receivers next year either even though the QB will have more experience.

Yeah, that's where, like 50/50 said, hopefully a tight end steps up. Also, I think a healthy Marcus Jones has the mindset of wanting to make the over-the-middle catch. But who knows, it's been awhile since he was an offensive piece.

 

[e.bigelow]

He also didn't have receivers I would have felt comfortable fighting for the ball in traffic. Bad combination for trying to get creative in the passing game. Problem is not sure if we are going to have those receivers next year either even though the QB will have more experience.

This. I can think of at least two instances this season where Barker clearly could have fought harder for the football, didn't, and it ended up being an INT.

 

[Deleted_User]

"Needs to" or what? He's fired?

Went straight for the spinner, didja!

 

[Deleted_User]

This. I can think of at least two instances this season where Barker clearly could have fought harder for the football, didn't, and it ended up being an INT.

"Could have" only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades, and ICBMs.