ESPN: The inside story of a toxic culture at Maryland football

[GopherWeatherGuy]

The story had the exact same wording...

I give up. Yes, Some posters bring a different perspective to what goes on here and it’s desperately needed IMO.

.

You're not providing a different perspective by being hypocritical. You continue to go on and on about how we need to let the facts play out, which I don't disagree with. Your position then falls on deaf ears when you try to defend it by slandering the author based on another article that provides no definitive proof of what you're accusing him of being.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Let’s get a read on opinions on training and discipline here. Those of us that have served depending on service and specialty went through some fair to extreme physical and mental duress with the understanding one has to be able to think and function under stress.

The analogy is not quite the same when transferred to high level athletics but I’d argue there is some value to being pushed to one’s limits both physical and mental. I’m reading a lot of stuff seeming to decry any sort of tough love or stress being put on players which seems odd. Withholding hydration is obviously not appropriate for athletes.

The devil in the details is knowing where the limit is, and responding appropriately when that is exceeded. Seems like the staff may have failed re: McNair. The other stuff...debatable IMO. Doesn’t seem like much when you really look at it unless one is a little sensitive. Fair to disagree.

Yes, another aspect to pushing players is the "mental toughness" factor. When the game is tied in the 4th quarter, the opponent is marching down the field with a few minutes left .... you have to dig deep, and resist the temptation to give into your body screaming for rest. I believe Vince Lombardi said fatigue makes everyone a coward.

But then again, the S&C staff absolutely have to be properly trained to recognize the very real signs of when someone isn't faking it, and it might be a matter of life and death.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

You're not providing a different perspective by being hypocritical. You continue to go on and on about how we need to let the facts play out, which I don't disagree with. Your position then falls on deaf ears when you try to defend it by slandering the author based on another article that provides no definitive proof of what you're accusing him of being.

So you agree all sides and perspectives, facts should be looked at prior to coming to a conclusion? We’re making progress.

 

[Dano564]

They (the family) reached a settlement with the NFL.

I'm guessing it was a few million.
They also had a case they got a judgement on against Riddell because the equipment manufacturer didn't explain the increase odds of heat exhaustion by wearing their protective equipment.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

So you agree all sides and perspectives, facts should be looked at prior to coming to a conclusion? We’re making progress.

I've never disagreed with that. You agree with that perspective in one instance, and then not in another, depending on what you choose to believe. Unfortunately you are not making progress.

 

[bizzle22]

Did Dennis Green get a media assault after Stringer died? He wasn’t fired until deep into the following season. I don’t recall the climate in 2001 as being quite as hostile as today although the storm clouds had been building for awhile. Surely Green could have called on his extensive medical background and saved Stringer.

In the Navy the Captain and occasionally his superior falls on his/their sword(s) if something on his/their ship goes terribly wrong. In American society at large...not so much. The hospital CEO certainly isn’t going down if a surgeon makes a mistake. It’s fair to examine how much culpability Durkin has with this and what society’s expectations are for coaches and their superiors.

To be fair, I don't recall any firsthand accounts of Stringer struggling with sprints and then being forced to continue. He collapsed after practice, was immediately taken to a medical trailer, and then rushed by ambulance to a hospital. No reported delays. No reports of being forced to continue as he was showing signs of struggling. And that was in a time when we didn't have technology available (at least not a widely as it is today) that allowed all players heart rates/body temp/etc. to be monitored in real time for an entire practice. I don't see the comparable potential signs of a toxic culture as have been reported about the Maryland situation.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

FWIW, the Maryland situation goes beyond the death of one player. There are allegations that the training staff and coaches treated players in a demeaning fashion. Once upon a time, that may have been par for the course, with coaches screaming at players. Like it or not, we are in a different era and I just don't think young people respond to that kind of approach any more.

So, the Maryland investigation will, I assume, look at the totality of the program - not just the death of one player, but the overall approach. And like it or not, the idea of coaches screaming in players faces, making demeaning comments, etc, does not play well with the general public. Never forget that College Presidents, and members of Boards of Regents, are politicians, and they are very sensitive to public opinion. when push comes to shove, I don't know if Durkin will lose his job - but there will be some type of disciplinary action.

 

[FredCoxRocks]

All this Maryland football talk made me think of the Daniels twins who committed to Minnesota a couple of years ago but then flipped to Maryland. I read they were transferring out of Maryland this last winter but to where? Their Twitter accounts still say Maryland football player. What's the story there?

 

[bizzle22]

FWIW, the Maryland situation goes beyond the death of one player. There are allegations that the training staff and coaches treated players in a demeaning fashion. Once upon a time, that may have been par for the course, with coaches screaming at players. Like it or not, we are in a different era and I just don't think young people respond to that kind of approach any more.

So, the Maryland investigation will, I assume, look at the totality of the program - not just the death of one player, but the overall approach. And like it or not, the idea of coaches screaming in players faces, making demeaning comments, etc, does not play well with the general public. Never forget that College Presidents, and members of Boards of Regents, are politicians, and they are very sensitive to public opinion. when push comes to shove, I don't know if Durkin will lose his job - but there will be some type of disciplinary action.

To piggyback off that: I'm assuming a lawsuit against the university, and likely Durkin and some members of his staff, is coming. Part of the question will be whether their overall approach contributed to the McNair's death, and whether those people should have reasonably been aware that the conditions they created could result in such a tragic thing. Sounds like it's possible. But as always, there will be more to the story on both sides. It will be interesting to see it play out.

I really don't think it is just a matter of how it plays to the general public. If the investigation/trial shows that creating a team culture where the things you mention contributed to his death then it isn't just a matter of how it looks, but evidence that coaching that way is actually dangerous. Though I definitely agree that it doesn't play well in public either way.

And for the record, I'm not at all saying that players need to be coddled and babied. Almost every elite athlete has to put in the work to get there, and sometimes that means pushing your limits. Sometimes you have to suck it up and do things that are difficult. But there needs to be a middle ground between coddling and pushing someone to the point where they die. I don't know if what the coaches did resulted in McNair's death, but I think when someone dies in a situation like this it's pretty important to do an investigation to see if something could have been done to prevent it.

Lastly, one thing I'd like to know is whether the players were wearing the health monitors that seem to be standard at some major programs. If they were wearing them I can't imagine his monitor wouldn't have caught the spike in body temp if it was working properly. Was this ignored or not being monitored? I'm sure we will find out.

 

[alchemy2u]

So you agree all sides and perspectives, facts should be looked at prior to coming to a conclusion? We’re making progress.

Don’t you ever notice how pompous you are? You jump to unsupported/hearsay conclusions like you claims other do and are totally oblivious to it. Just put down the shovel and stop digging. I have never seen you try to get information from all sides, only jump on the bandwagon to automatically defend the athlete/coach that is in trouble.


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[alchemy2u]

Let’s get a read on opinions on training and discipline here. Those of us that have served depending on service and specialty went through some fair to extreme physical and mental duress with the understanding one has to be able to think and function under stress.

The analogy is not quite the same when transferred to high level athletics but I’d argue there is some value to being pushed to one’s limits both physical and mental. I’m reading a lot of stuff seeming to decry any sort of tough love or stress being put on players which seems odd. Withholding hydration is obviously not appropriate for athletes.

The devil in the details is knowing where the limit is, and responding appropriately when that is exceeded. Seems like the staff may have failed re: McNair. The other stuff...debatable IMO. Doesn’t seem like much when you really look at it unless one is a little sensitive. Fair to disagree.

This discussion is not really about discipline, tough love, mental toughness or a player’s physical limit. It is about the treatment of those players in how to test and expand those limits. Just look at the videos of the Gophers weight training, plenty of encouragement, challenges and pushing your limit, but no one is being humiliated or denigrated. Oh, and no one is dying.


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[Dano564]

To be fair, I don't recall any firsthand accounts of Stringer struggling with sprints and then being forced to continue. He collapsed after practice, was immediately taken to a medical trailer, and then rushed by ambulance to a hospital. No reported delays. No reports of being forced to continue as he was showing signs of struggling. And that was in a time when we didn't have technology available (at least not a widely as it is today) that allowed all players heart rates/body temp/etc. to be monitored in real time for an entire practice. I don't see the comparable potential signs of a toxic culture as have been reported about the Maryland situation.

Not a first hand account, but what I had "heard" at the time were comments of how he was having an incredible practice and he was tough-manning it on his own that day refusing water, etc.
He was reportedly like a machine having an awesome camp / practices.

I think there may have been a "macho" thing going on then as well however as I also believe he was often ridiculed for puking Up until that season), so he was taking it a measure further to be a leader of the line, etc.
I'm not sure if this is accurate however, it's just what i seem to recall at the time.

Evidently, (we didn't hear it until after he passed), he was an excellent teammate with a awesome sense of humor who the players really loved and that team seemed to lose a lot of heart without him.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

All this Maryland football talk made me think of the Daniels twins who committed to Minnesota a couple of years ago but then flipped to Maryland. I read they were transferring out of Maryland this last winter but to where? Their Twitter accounts still say Maryland football player. What's the story there?

Oh man yeah I forgot about them.

 

[LakerFan]

To be fair, I don't recall any firsthand accounts of Stringer struggling with sprints and then being forced to continue. He collapsed after practice, was immediately taken to a medical trailer, and then rushed by ambulance to a hospital. No reported delays. No reports of being forced to continue as he was showing signs of struggling. And that was in a time when we didn't have technology available (at least not a widely as it is today) that allowed all players heart rates/body temp/etc. to be monitored in real time for an entire practice. I don't see the comparable potential signs of a toxic culture as have been reported about the Maryland situation.

With the technology available today you could conceivably have heartrate/biometric monitors on the entire team during practice and come up with algorithms to warn you when someone goes off the rails. Especially at a college program where there are large roster sizes, I would think you would eventually trend towards something like this as a safety net. Cost of a biometric monitor for a player is pretty low <$100.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

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[PMWinSTP]

FWIW, the Maryland situation goes beyond the death of one player. There are allegations that the training staff and coaches treated players in a demeaning fashion. Once upon a time, that may have been par for the course, with coaches screaming at players. Like it or not, we are in a different era and I just don't think young people respond to that kind of approach any more.

So, the Maryland investigation will, I assume, look at the totality of the program - not just the death of one player, but the overall approach. And like it or not, the idea of coaches screaming in players faces, making demeaning comments, etc, does not play well with the general public. Never forget that College Presidents, and members of Boards of Regents, are politicians, and they are very sensitive to public opinion. when push comes to shove, I don't know if Durkin will lose his job - but there will be some type of disciplinary action.

Watch Last Chance U...that CC HC was brutal.

 

[50PoundHead]

Watch Last Chance U...that CC HC was brutal.

Which is probably why he's never coached anything but junior college football.

 

[KGF]

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I think most people assumed his death was due to an undetected health/heart defect. I don’t think anyone was aware of the delay in getting him appropriate treatment.

I believe more resignations or dismissals will follow, and Durkin is on very thin ice.

 

[Sparlimb]

I think most people assumed his death was due to an undetected health/heart defect. I don’t think anyone was aware of the delay in getting him appropriate treatment.

I believe more resignations or dismissals will follow, and Durkin is on very thin ice.

Durkin is done. The University just took responsibility for the death and will be paying a handsome wrongful death claim to the family. The coach has to go. Who else would send their kid to play under him. He's a dead man walking in that job. He'll get something in the NFL...

 

[KGF]

Not to derail the discussion on Maryland, or assume guilt of anyone until all the facts are in, but notice the affiliation to one Urban Meyer:

*Kevin Wilson, dismissed from IU for abusing players, hired immediately after by Urban Meyer.
*Durkin coached for Meyer at BG and Florida, under suspicion for player abuse, and has modeled some of his program after Meyer’s.
*Maryland S & C coach Rick Court, former asst S & C coach at Ohio State hired by Urban Meyer. If you know anything about Meyer’s S & C coach who is Urban’s most important coach, you can see that Court has modeled his program off of Ohio St’s.

And finally, Urban Meyer, who has been accused of player abuse at Florida in that undercover video interviewing former Meyer players.

Hmmm.

 

[FireDaveLee]

None of this should really be a surprise. After all, Maryland is the school that produced this female fan....

 

[Pompous Elitist]

This discussion is not really about discipline, tough love, mental toughness or a player’s physical limit. It is about the treatment of those players in how to test and expand those limits. Just look at the videos of the Gophers weight training, plenty of encouragement, challenges and pushing your limit, but no one is being humiliated or denigrated. Oh, and no one is dying.


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Hyperbole. The better conditioned, acclimated, mentally strong team has a better chance to win. You may disagree philosophically on method and some things certainly are better left in the last but there is a method to the madness.

Regarding the McNair tragedy the university stated the trainers never checked McNair’s temperature or other basic measures. Now, the trainers may say something different than the university...but it looks very bad for them. Gross incompetence if true. Durkin will likely be history for PR reasons and I don’t entirely disagree as the competence and training of one’s staff is ultimately on the head man.

Durkin has no medical training (to my knowledge) so one could reasonably argue the fault lies more with the head of training/medical staff (again a hospital or clinic CEO would never take responsibility for poor staff performance) but with the complaining/crying about tough training methods he’ll be the fall guy as some will link the two issues. A cautionary tale to hire competent staff and keep them drilled.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Why every Big Ten university, with the resources and medical expertise they have, wouldn't require every player to get a heart evaluation before ever being allowed to participate in S&C workouts ... is beyond me.

Why wouldn't you do that? Or are those types of defects actually impossible to detect, in our modern technology, until someone collapses??

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Why every Big Ten university, with the resources and medical expertise they have, wouldn't require every player to get a heart evaluation before ever being allowed to participate in S&C workouts ... is beyond me.

Why wouldn't you do that? Or are those types of defects actually impossible to detect, in our modern technology, until someone collapses??

University of WA has been performing cardiac screening since 2010. NCAA guidelines updated in 2016.

http://www.onlinejacc.org/content/65/21/2353

http://www.onlinejacc.org/content/67/25/2981#bib15

 

[scheffkp]

Why every Big Ten university, with the resources and medical expertise they have, wouldn't require every player to get a heart evaluation before ever being allowed to participate in S&C workouts ... is beyond me.

Why wouldn't you do that? Or are those types of defects actually impossible to detect, in our modern technology, until someone collapses??

It is often a resource problem when it comes to screening all athletes. The school I currently work for does EKG's on every incoming athlete, with follow up echocardiograms on any athlete with abnormal EKG and/or concerning history/exam. We are only able to do this because the head electophysiologist volunteers his time. My previous two schools, both big ten did not no this, but would do EKG on higher risk sports.

The problem is even with doing this you don't catch everything. A study was just published in the most recent New England Journal where they screened 10000+ soccer athletes with EKG and ECHO and still had 9 deaths that were attributed to cardiac during the study period, so we just don't have an easy way of catching every possible thing.


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[Gophers_4life]

Excellent post, thank you

 

[Hates Monikers]

To be fair, I don't recall any firsthand accounts of Stringer struggling with sprints and then being forced to continue. He collapsed after practice, was immediately taken to a medical trailer, and then rushed by ambulance to a hospital. No reported delays. No reports of being forced to continue as he was showing signs of struggling. And that was in a time when we didn't have technology available (at least not a widely as it is today) that allowed all players heart rates/body temp/etc. to be monitored in real time for an entire practice. I don't see the comparable potential signs of a toxic culture as have been reported about the Maryland situation.

My vague memory of the Stringer situation is that coaches and players had been giving him sh!t the day before for not completing a few drills due to the heat and he wasn't going to go through that "shame" again. I could be wrong.

I think it would be hard for normal people to know the difference between normal training fatigue and an emergency state. But you would think trainers with advanced degrees and coaches making $3 million-plus should have an idea -- and call for help when someone is dying.