ESPN B1G Blog on Nelson ans McDonald

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Iceland12

Iceland12

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From this afternoon's chat:

Bill (Warroad, MN)
Hey Brian, Love the blog. I'm a big Gopher fan, and I'm pretty concerned about the recent defections from the team. Kill has now lost Philip Nelson, Jamel Harbison, and previously lost Andre McDonald. That means the Gophers lost their 3 highest rated players from the 2012 class, including 2 WRs and a QB. Kill has now lost 4 scholarship WRs in just over a year. Brewster failed because he couldn't keep guys in school and on the field. Is it time to start worrying that Kill has the same problem?

Brian Bennett
It's fair to wonder. McDonald was by his own recent account unable to pass multiple drug tests, so I wouldn't use that one as a knock on Kill. The Nelson transfer is a little troubling since he was such an important in-state recruit. Minnesota is not in a position to be losing a lot of skill guys as is. But overall, I still think things are going in the right direction for the Gophers..

Pete (Minneapolis)

Are you buying the reason for Nelson's departure from Minnesota? He claims he wants to go to a system that better fits his skill set. Since he was recruited by Coach Kill, he knew what the system was when he committed to Minnesota. Makes me think it's not necessarily the system he's upset with but rather the lack of talented players (receivers) around him in that system.

Brian Bennett
I'm sure he knew a lot about the system, but Minnesota threw the ball a lot less this year than it did a year ago. A lot had to do with the inexperience and lack of talent at the receiver position. Nelson himself didn't light it up as a passer, but he might not want to run it as much as Minnesota seems to want from its QB. If that's the case, I have no problem with him transferring somewhere else.


http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chats
 

It will be interesting to see where Nelson end up and how he does.
 

I kind of figured it was his WRs fault that he over threw them by a good 10+ yards.....

This coaching staff from what I can tell is doing what they can with what they got.
Woliarsky and Jones are young but good receivers and ran good routes as well as
Maxx Williams and were open countless times but seldom got the ball to them.
How open was Maxx Willams down the middle vs Wisconsin? A ball that got into his
hands would have been a touchdown..
 

Lousy WR's just were never able to catch those short hops.
 

And here we go again......
 



I know we are talking in circles, but I still feel the inexperienced wide receiver thing is being overplayed as an excuse for Nelson. That can be blamed when receivers aren't open or when they drop balls, but Nelson was missing wide open guys. I don't care if the receiver is Jerry Rice or Dr. Don, if he is wide open the ball should hit him in the chest.
 

Does Dr Don have any eligibility left? I'm pretty sure Rice has used all of his.

Seriously, how badly are we going to miss McDonald and Harbison. Drug tests and team rules. We will be better than you expect. 3 sophomores with a years worth of learning the system and game experience. Better than last year by a mega bunch.

Don't get me wrong. I surely wish it had worked out for them and for us. It didn't.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
I know we are talking in circles, but I still feel the inexperienced wide receiver thing is being overplayed as an excuse for Nelson. That can be blamed when receivers aren't open or when they drop balls, but Nelson was missing wide open guys. I don't care if the receiver is Jerry Rice or Dr. Don, if he is wide open the ball should hit him in the chest.
Click to expand...

I agree.

It does seem as though there has not been any real QB progression during the Kill era, at least as far as the passing game. This could very well be all on the player(s), but I do believe it is a point of concern.
 



station19 said:
I agree.

It does seem as though there has not been any real QB progression during the Kill era, at least as far as the passing game. This could very well be all on the player(s), but I do believe it is a point of concern.
Click to expand...


Growing the offensive line from boys to men...learning how to POUND the rock...not just run the ball and becoming a team that can SHUT DOWN the run...not just stop the run: THAT is the game plan that the good Coach has in mind. MSU is the program he wants to emulate. So far, only in year three and headed into year four of this LONG-TERM total rebuilding job from the brew-ball mess, there really hasn't been much room on the drawing board to worry about a passing game. That is most likely three to four years down the road. The good Coach is conducting FOOTBALL 101 major construction on this program. In order to build the kind of program he envisions, this team NEEDS to consistently RUN the ball and STOP the run against any and ALL comers.

When the good Coach Kill defeats wisky by running the ball down their throats AND by shutting down their running game...you can expect there MAY be a little more emphasis on developing a passing game to balance things out. Until then: TCF BANK STADIUM is "fOOTBALL 101" COUNTRY. Don't expect it to change any time soon.

Remember: the key will be to shut down wisky's running game and to smash the badgers at their own running game. NOTHING changes until this badger thing has been put to rest and the series becomes COMPETETIVE again. Look for "read-run" quarterbacks, HUGE offensive lines and hopefully the development of monster linebackers, defensive ends and tackles.

The Good Coach wants my Gophers to run the ball and stop the run and maybe then get a little more fancy with that forward pass thing.

Beat the badgers at their own game...and then we can recruit some fancy wide outs...
 

imthewalrus said:
Growing the offensive line from boys to men...learning how to POUND the rock...not just run the ball and becoming a team that can SHUT DOWN the run...not just stop the run: THAT is the game plan that the good Coach has in mind. MSU is the program he wants to emulate. So far, only in year three and headed into year four of this LONG-TERM total rebuilding job from the brew-ball mess, there really hasn't been much room on the drawing board to worry about a passing game. That is most likely three to four years down the road. The good Coach is conducting FOOTBALL 101 major construction on this program. In order to build the kind of program he envisions, this team NEEDS to consistently RUN the ball and STOP the run against any and ALL comers.

When the good Coach Kill defeats wisky by running the ball down their throats AND by shutting down their running game...you can expect there MAY be a little more emphasis on developing a passing game to balance things out. Until then: TCF BANK STADIUM is "fOOTBALL 101" COUNTRY. Don't expect it to change any time soon.

Remember: the key will be to shut down wisky's running game and to smash the badgers at their own running game. NOTHING changes until this badger thing has been put to rest and the series becomes COMPETETIVE again. Look for "read-run" quarterbacks, HUGE offensive lines and hopefully the development of monster linebackers, defensive ends and tackles.

The Good Coach wants my Gophers to run the ball and stop the run and maybe then get a little more fancy with that forward pass thing.

Beat the badgers at their own game...and then we can recruit some fancy wide outs...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what this has to do with QBs missing wide open receivers by 5-10 yds.
 

imthewalrus said:
Growing the offensive line from boys to men...learning how to POUND the rock...not just run the ball and becoming a team that can SHUT DOWN the run...not just stop the run: THAT is the game plan that the good Coach has in mind. MSU is the program he wants to emulate. So far, only in year three and headed into year four of this LONG-TERM total rebuilding job from the brew-ball mess, there really hasn't been much room on the drawing board to worry about a passing game. That is most likely three to four years down the road. The good Coach is conducting FOOTBALL 101 major construction on this program. In order to build the kind of program he envisions, this team NEEDS to consistently RUN the ball and STOP the run against any and ALL comers.

When the good Coach Kill defeats wisky by running the ball down their throats AND by shutting down their running game...you can expect there MAY be a little more emphasis on developing a passing game to balance things out. Until then: TCF BANK STADIUM is "fOOTBALL 101" COUNTRY. Don't expect it to change any time soon.

Remember: the key will be to shut down wisky's running game and to smash the badgers at their own running game. NOTHING changes until this badger thing has been put to rest and the series becomes COMPETETIVE again. Look for "read-run" quarterbacks, HUGE offensive lines and hopefully the development of monster linebackers, defensive ends and tackles.

The Good Coach wants my Gophers to run the ball and stop the run and maybe then get a little more fancy with that forward pass thing.

Beat the badgers at their own game...and then we can recruit some fancy wide outs...
Click to expand...

Much too narrow a view wren.

This team NEEDS a passing game to win. Wisconsin game 2013 - Nelson hits the wide open TE in middle and the game is totally different, imo.

Just like Mason, who had a phenomal running game. Mase teams didnt pass the ball effectively, and it hurt the running game when needing a few yards.

Same with Kill and Co.
 

BarnBurner said:
Much too narrow a view wren.

This team NEEDS a passing game to win. Wisconsin game 2013 - Nelson hits the wide open TE in middle and the game is totally different, imo.

Just like Mason, who had a phenomal running game. Mase teams didnt pass the ball effectively, and it hurt the running game when needing a few yards.

Same with Kill and Co.
Click to expand...

The Running and Passing games went together well for Mason more often than not. Bryan Cupito threw 918 times for 7446 yards, 55 TD and only 25 Interceptions during his 3 years quarterbacking at Minnesota. He ranks second all time at Minnesota for both Passing yards and TD. He was was closer to the top than the bottom in Big Ten stats in many categories. You're right though, when they got behind and had to Pass, often it didn't work out well for them.

On Nelson, whether it was him or the Offensive scheme that led to the lousy Passing game this past season we'll probably never know. Doesn't change the fact that Nelson has every right to try and go somewhere to find out.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/bryan-cupito-1.html
 



station19 said:
I'm not sure what this has to do with QBs missing wide open receivers by 5-10 yds.
Click to expand...

It pretty much has a huge impact on the Gopher passing attack under the Good Coach Kill and his staff. They took the Gophers to Football 101 which is all about mastering running the ball and beginning to be able to stop the run. The pass was pretty much an after thought. With the exception of the Purdue game in 2012 and the Indiana game in 2013 it still IS pretty much not the major theme of developing the Golden Gopher Football Program. How many times a game do they pass? Not many for major college football being played in this 2011...2012...2013 era. How often has the qb run the ball compared to the number of passes the qb has thrown?

Coach Kill and his staff have been in NO hurry to throw the football. And I call this "Football 101" strategy. This strategy says before you can do anything else on the football field well...you HAVE to run the ball and you have to stop the run.

And, the biggest thing that happened during the 2013 season is that Minnesota was able to BE more physical than Northwestern, Indiana, Nebraska and PSU...and they won. They were NOT more physical than Michigan, Iowa, Wisky and MSU...and they lost. They also were not more physical than Syracuse and they lost.

I highly doubt that through the first three seasons that Coach Kill's major concern was for my Gophers to have a "balanced" offense. I think he wanted my Gophers to quit having the crap pounded out of them by every conference team that they faced and to start dishing out the punishment to the other conference teams they played. And, my Gophers ARE making progress in being able to PUNISH some of the Conference teams enough to beat them.

Watch for Coach Kill to continue that theme for a few more years until he feels that his offense and his defense no longer HAVE to protect each other by POUNDING the rock on offense and STOPPING the run on defense. They couldn't stop the run against iowa, Michigan, wisky and MSU in 2013. And, they didn't stop the run against Syracuse.

I really don't think Coach Kill is nearly as focused on wanting to have an nfl passing attack the way a LOT of posters on this board are.

But, the Big Ten won/loss record in 2014 will let Coach Kill know if he is on track in what he is doing...or...if he needs to panic and throw his Football 101 philosophy out the window and down the drain...

Coach Kill KNOWS how many times he throws the ball in Conference play. I'd say that the coach ALWAYS does exactly what the coach wants to do. He just wants to run and stop the run at this point in time...and he wants his quarterbacks to RUN the ball a LOT.
 

Iceland12 said:
The Running and Passing games went together well for Mason more often than not. Bryan Cupito threw 918 times for 7446 yards, 55 TD and only 25 Interceptions during his 3 years quarterbacking at Minnesota. He ranks second all time at Minnesota for both Passing yards and TD. He was was closer to the top than the bottom in Big Ten stats in many categories. You're right though, when they got behind and had to Pass, often it didn't work out well for them.

On Nelson, whether it was him or the Offensive scheme that led to the lousy Passing game this past season we'll probably never know. Doesn't change the fact that Nelson has every right to try and go somewhere to find out.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/bryan-cupito-1.html
Click to expand...

A good passing game takes the heat off the running game, makes the defense a bit more honest, and thus opens up an offense.

Often? Mn has not had a real good passing game in a loooong time. Look at most of the teams at the top at the end of the season.

How is their passing game?
 

Posted by Barb Burner

Much too narrow a view wren.

This team NEEDS a passing game to win. Wisconsin game 2013 - Nelson hits the wide open TE in middle and the game is totally different, imo.

Just like Mason, who had a phenomal running game. Mase teams didnt pass the ball effectively, and it hurt the running game when needing a few yards.

Same with Kill and Co.


Quote Originally Posted by Iceland12 View Post

The Running and Passing games went together well for Mason more often than not. Bryan Cupito (Mason's QB for 3 Years) threw 918 times for 7446 yards, 55 TD and only 25 Interceptions during his 3 years quarterbacking at Minnesota. He ranks second all time at Minnesota for both Passing yards and TD. He was was closer to the top than the bottom in Big Ten stats in many categories. You're right though, when they got behind and had to Pass, often it didn't work out well for them.

(should also note that Asad Abdul-Khaliq Abdul-Khaliq threw for 6,600 passing yards in his career along with 55 touchdowns.)

On Nelson, whether it was him or the Offensive scheme that led to the lousy Passing game this past season we'll probably never know. Doesn't change the fact that Nelson has every right to try and go somewhere to find out.



BarnBurner said:
A good passing game takes the heat off the running game, makes the defense a bit more honest, and thus opens up an offense.

Often? Mn has not had a real good passing game in a loooong time. Look at most of the teams at the top at the end of the season.

How is their passing game?
Click to expand...

There, reprinted the post with highlights. Hope that helps.
 


Iceland12 said:
Posted by Barb Burner

Much too narrow a view wren.

This team NEEDS a passing game to win. Wisconsin game 2013 - Nelson hits the wide open TE in middle and the game is totally different, imo.

Just like Mason, who had a phenomal running game. Mase teams didnt pass the ball effectively, and it hurt the running game when needing a few yards.

Same with Kill and Co.


Quote Originally Posted by Iceland12 View Post

The Running and Passing games went together well for Mason more often than not. Bryan Cupito (Mason's QB for 3 Years) threw 918 times for 7446 yards, 55 TD and only 25 Interceptions during his 3 years quarterbacking at Minnesota. He ranks second all time at Minnesota for both Passing yards and TD. He was was closer to the top than the bottom in Big Ten stats in many categories. You're right though, when they got behind and had to Pass, often it didn't work out well for them.

(should also note that Asad Abdul-Khaliq Abdul-Khaliq threw for 6,600 passing yards in his career along with 55 touchdowns.)

On Nelson, whether it was him or the Offensive scheme that led to the lousy Passing game this past season we'll probably never know. Doesn't change the fact that Nelson has every right to try and go somewhere to find out.





There, reprinted the post with highlights. Hope that helps.
Click to expand...


How is the passing game of top teams in the ncaa?

Clear nuf fer y'a?
 

imthewalrus said:
It pretty much has a huge impact on the Gopher passing attack under the Good Coach Kill and his staff. They took the Gophers to Football 101 which is all about mastering running the ball and beginning to be able to stop the run. The pass was pretty much an after thought. With the exception of the Purdue game in 2012 and the Indiana game in 2013 it still IS pretty much not the major theme of developing the Golden Gopher Football Program. How many times a game do they pass? Not many for major college football being played in this 2011...2012...2013 era. How often has the qb run the ball compared to the number of passes the qb has thrown?

Coach Kill and his staff have been in NO hurry to throw the football. And I call this "Football 101" strategy. This strategy says before you can do anything else on the football field well...you HAVE to run the ball and you have to stop the run.

And, the biggest thing that happened during the 2013 season is that Minnesota was able to BE more physical than Northwestern, Indiana, Nebraska and PSU...and they won. They were NOT more physical than Michigan, Iowa, Wisky and MSU...and they lost. They also were not more physical than Syracuse and they lost.

I highly doubt that through the first three seasons that Coach Kill's major concern was for my Gophers to have a "balanced" offense. I think he wanted my Gophers to quit having the crap pounded out of them by every conference team that they faced and to start dishing out the punishment to the other conference teams they played. And, my Gophers ARE making progress in being able to PUNISH some of the Conference teams enough to beat them.

Watch for Coach Kill to continue that theme for a few more years until he feels that his offense and his defense no longer HAVE to protect each other by POUNDING the rock on offense and STOPPING the run on defense. They couldn't stop the run against iowa, Michigan, wisky and MSU in 2013. And, they didn't stop the run against Syracuse.

I really don't think Coach Kill is nearly as focused on wanting to have an nfl passing attack the way a LOT of posters on this board are.

But, the Big Ten won/loss record in 2014 will let Coach Kill know if he is on track in what he is doing...or...if he needs to panic and throw his Football 101 philosophy out the window and down the drain...

Coach Kill KNOWS how many times he throws the ball in Conference play. I'd say that the coach ALWAYS does exactly what the coach wants to do. He just wants to run and stop the run at this point in time...and he wants his quarterbacks to RUN the ball a LOT.
Click to expand...

I was talking about the progression of the individual QBs. No need for all your jibber jabber.
 

Average Big 10 QBs miss quite a few open receivers. Nelson wasn't very good, but you can't minimize how awful our receivers were last year. I can't think of a single play where a WR made a play in the open field and made a 10 yarder a 50 yarder (I saw AJ do it a year ago a few times), I can only think of a handful of plays where there was a jump ball and our receiver came down with the ball. We got very little from our receivers last season. I'm over the whole Nelson thing, so now I'm focusing on how these guys will have to improve for Leidner.

Our receivers (with the exception of a Maxx) essentially had to be wide open and to be hit between the numbers to make a play, especially when Engel went down. Our QBs were worse than average last season, but even average college QBs aren't super accurate. I'm not trying to turn this into a Weber debate, but think of the amount of receptions that Decker made (rather than Weber), he won a ton of jump balls. Think of the amount of plays Abbrederis made for WI. We need a receiver who can make a play. When we have that, our QB will start looking average or better.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Average Big 10 QBs miss quite a few open receivers. Nelson wasn't very good, but you can't minimize how awful our receivers were last year. I can't think of a single play where a WR made a play in the open field and made a 10 yarder a 50 yarder (I saw AJ do it a year ago a few times), I can only think of a handful of plays where there was a jump ball and our receiver came down with the ball. We got very little from our receivers last season. I'm over the whole Nelson thing, so now I'm focusing on how these guys will have to improve for Leidner.

Our receivers (with the exception of a Maxx) essentially had to be wide open and to be hit between the numbers to make a play, especially when Engel went down. Our QBs were worse than average last season, but even average college QBs aren't super accurate. I'm not trying to turn this into a Weber debate, but think of the amount of receptions that Decker made (rather than Weber), he won a ton of jump balls. Think of the amount of plays Abbrederis made for WI. We need a receiver who can make a play. When we have that, our QB will start looking average or better.
Click to expand...

You folks may want the Gophers to pass the ball...but...you have to talk the head man and his staff into really wanting to pass the ball as much as you seem to think they must be wanting to do. I think that is something you people need to do...you need to convince the coaching staff that they really do want the quarterbacks passing the ball. How often do the Gophers pass in a game? How often do they have the quarterback run the ball? It is pretty clear that the Gopher Coaching Staff is not really wanting to pass the ball very much just by the number of passes the Gophers typically throw in a game.

Maybe in a few years Coach Kill will be more into a passing frame of mind and will want his quarterbacks to focus more on passing and less on read-running. For right now...he certainly does not seem to be very serious about establishing a passing game...but...some of you people want to pretend that he is...
 

There were many opportunities for longer passes, and the blame can be put on any number players or coaches. When I was watching the games on T.V. and they would show the end zone view, I did see a lot of passing plays where (whichever) Q.B. was in the game was putting the ball in an area where his read was an open area where the receiver could make a play on the ball. The receiver (often) read the coverage a different way and broke the route in a different direction, so the perception was that the Q.B. missed the receiver by a mile, but the reality is that they are not seeing the coverage the same way. I hope this off season fixes some of those miss-reads.
 

imthewalrus said:
You folks may want the Gophers to pass the ball...but...you have to talk the head man and his staff into really wanting to pass the ball as much as you seem to think they must be wanting to do. I think that is something you people need to do...you need to convince the coaching staff that they really do want the quarterbacks passing the ball. How often do the Gophers pass in a game? How often do they have the quarterback run the ball? It is pretty clear that the Gopher Coaching Staff is not really wanting to pass the ball very much just by the number of passes the Gophers typically throw in a game.

Maybe in a few years Coach Kill will be more into a passing frame of mind and will want his quarterbacks to focus more on passing and less on read-running. For right now...he certainly does not seem to be very serious about establishing a passing game...but...some of you people want to pretend that he is...
Click to expand...

We all understand that we're primarily a running team, but in case you haven't noticed, we still pass the ball on occasion as well. When we do pass (because we do), we can certainly do a better job at it.

No one has to convince the coaching staff of anything, we do pass the ball.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
We all understand that we're primarily a running team, but in case you haven't noticed, we still pass the ball on occasion as well. When we do pass (because we do), we can certainly do a better job at it.

No one has to convince the coaching staff of anything, we do pass the ball.
Click to expand...

+1 Thanks Bob for pointing out this simple reality and truth. This discussion at times here seemed to take on a religious dogma tone.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
We all understand that we're primarily a running team, but in case you haven't noticed, we still pass the ball on occasion as well. When we do pass (because we do), we can certainly do a better job at it.

No one has to convince the coaching staff of anything, we do pass the ball.
Click to expand...

However, Bob_lo: when posters are trying to trash the young, student athletes who play the quarterback position for this coach and his assistant coaches as being bad players or for needing to divorce themselves from this coach and his assistant coaches because they do not get a chance to play to their strengths because of the system...the attitude and philosophy of the coach. The way that coach Kill assembles talent to make the passing game successful, one does HAVE to question the commitment of the coach and his staff to the passing game. IF people want to trash the young student athletes, certainly the attitude, philosophy and the commitment of the coach and his staff to the passing game is fair game. Good, honest hard-nosed questioning of the commitment of the coach to the passing phase of his system is most certainly warranted. People around here are so free to trash the young student athletes...but are so incredibly protective of the coach and his staff. Let's face it: the coach and his staff earn a LOT of money to take the scrutiny and have the hard questions asked of them. So, I say it is entirely possible that Coach Kill is really not putting enough time, effort, resources and commitment into creating an offensive system puts his quarterbacks and receivers into a postion of really being successful.

Personally, I think Coach Kill wishes to create a Football 101 environment in which becoming more physical and running the ball and stopping the run totally takes priority over establishing a successful passing game. Yes, he will pass the ball if necessary. However, recruiting for a successful passing program has not shown commitment and dedication to the establishment of a strong passing game.

And, any time that young student athletes are taken apart on a forum such as this one, I insist that it is only right that the highly paid coach and coaching staff must also be included in the discussion to determine just what the role of the coach in the problem...the process and the formation and evolution of the offense is. Coaches have much more input into the situation than the young student athletes and their family members have. So, I say if some wish to take the young, student athletes to the wood shed...the highly paid coach and his staff must also make that trip to the wood shed. Only in the good natured and kind spirit displayed by all of us who post on this board...of course!

; 0 )
 




Dr.Don said:
I wish you would also delete the post you deleted due to duplicate post. If your original post would also be edited to "xyz" all would be fine.

:)
Click to expand...

How about also deleting the "xyz" and just leaving the ; 0 ). That is all I need.:)
 


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