ESPN Article - At the Watercooler: Talking Big Ten

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On the Gophers, per Myron:

Possible collapse? Well, I'll wrap this up with a little story. I recently spoke with an opposing Big Ten coach about Richard Pitino's plan to run the floor and press at Minnesota. That coach paused for a moment, and essentially suggested that the particular brand of basketball just doesn't work (consistently) in the grind-it-out, physical conference unless you're equipped with elite talent throughout your roster. Minnesota lost Trevor Mbakwe, Rodney Williams and Joe Coleman (transfer). The Gophers have Austin Hollins and Andre Hollins, as you've mentioned, but they're not elite.

Pitino has some solid pieces. But the combination of a new staff, a new style that might not work in a new league and the team's voids could lead to a messy season for the Gophers. Not that the expectations are sky high or anything. But I have a lot of question marks about the program.

Some things never change, I guess.

Speaking of collapse, I have to clean my golf clubs so I can prepare to hit houses and large trees at courses throughout Minnesota in the coming weeks. Enjoy the weather, Eamonn. Until next time, my friend.

Go Gophers!!
 

Any guesses on Myron's source? I'm guessing it's Bo Ryan. Based on proximity alone...I don't think Myron goes out of his way too much to get/dig up a story.

Anyways...whether it fails or succeeds it should be a fun brand to watch. I've always thought (for the last three years or so) that we've had better athletes than basketball players. Let them be athletes.

Also, biggest issue in our losses last year was the turnovers. I think Pitino picked up on that and has more than enough ball-handlers now to accomodate his style as well as just simply taking care of the ball when we are in half court set.
 

Prefer playing .500 ball in the Big Ten and then having a guard heavy team that can make a run in the tournament.

Its just more fun to watch.
 

As with anything, it'll come down to the quality and execution of the scheme. Can Richard teach it so that the players understand it? I don't think you necessarily have to have elite talent to run a pressing, trapping defense.
 


Myron trashing the Gophers? Haven't seen that before. Dude needs a new shtick.
 

Interesting, but not totally surprising. I believe it can work, but I have my doubts, too. I am looking forward to seeing it in action.
 

I think that the Big Ten (Wisky being the exception) is moving away from the grind it out style of play from years past and moving towards a more recruit-friendly style that is similar to what Pitino is trying to implement here. Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, and to some degree Michigan State certainly bucked that trend this past year and did so with success. People said the same thing about McCaffery's style when he first came to the league and with patience the fans in Iowa City are starting to see results. He simply had to get his players in his system. Certainly won't happen overnight.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Big East has a similar reputation as being a "grind it out" conference, yet all Rick Pitino has done is come in and win 30 games a year and compete for conference and national titles. The system works anywhere, just need the horses. This is why Richard Pitino has continually stressed the importance of recruiting since he's come on board.

And ask Matt Painter if this style of play won't work in the Big Ten after his team played VCU in the 2011 NCAA Tourney.
 

After seeing Michigan fly up and down the court in Williams arena in January the grind it out B1G style may be going the way of the DVD.
 




It's nice having a Minnesotan in the national media like Myron, the gophers get a lot more attention and articles written about them then if he wasn't there, also Andy Katz went to Indiana and among Brennan is from Iowa and lives in Chicago so the gophers/big ten get alot of attrntion on that website, the only blogger I don't like is Dana O'niel, she isn't a big ten girl, she is an east coast ACC/ Big East girl I believe
 

Is he suggesting that you can win the big ten without elite talent?

You can't win the big ten without a ton of talent regardless of talent.
 

I said the same thing and got blasted. Being in Kentucky, I'm all too familiar with the Pitino/Donovan brand of basketball and it's entirely true that you need elite players to execute it, ortherwise Minnesota will just be Alabama of the north. Anthony Grant is a classic example of how lacking elite talent doesn't make that Pitino/Donovan system look so great. Grant did well in the mid-majors but has flopped in the big leagues. Just merely playing up-tempo is no guarantee for success. The rest of the B1G is not gonna roll over and play dead for Richard Pitino. They'll figure it out and adjust. The coaches are just too good in this league.
 



The system is not going to determine if you win or lose. Winning or losing is about first having the talent, and then having the talent execute. We have seen coaches across the country who are able to get a ton of talent and rarely execute, and we have seen coaches who get players to consistently execute but never have the athletes to get over the hump.

Pitino can win with his system with the right talent. Clem won when he had talent, and didn't when he didn't have the talent. Same with Michigan. They looked great this ear with an uptempo system with talent. Indiana? Same thing, they looked better this year than any other. Wisky? I don't know that they'll ever get over the hump in the tourney with that system because either Bo doesn't get the athletes, or doesn't allow the athletes the room to perform. However, his system is great at always being competitive.

It all comes down to getting athletes and getting them to execute. The blue bloods will have the athletes year in and year out. Other programs will be more up and down - not because of the system, but because the wont have the athletes on as consistent a basis.
 

I love that ESPN has this Eamon guy who lets his Iowa bias fly AND Myron who seems to go out of his way to be negative towards the Gopher program.

It's a silly notion that a particular style of play (in any sport), doesn't work in a particular conference. It almost always comes down to the ability of your players and their "fit" in your system.
 

KyGopherfan said:
I said the same thing and got blasted. Being in Kentucky, I'm all too familiar with the Pitino/Donovan brand of basketball and it's entirely true that you need elite players to execute it, ortherwise Minnesota will just be Alabama of the north. Anthony Grant is a classic example of how lacking elite talent doesn't make that Pitino/Donovan system look so great. Grant did well in the mid-majors but has flopped in the big leagues. Just merely playing up-tempo is no guarantee for success. The rest of the B1G is not gonna roll over and play dead for Richard Pitino. They'll figure it out and adjust. The coaches are just too good in this league.
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anthony grant actually does have some good talent in guys like trevor lacey, devonta pollard, levi randolph and trevor releford, all top 50, top 40 recruits, so does he not have enough talent or he just cant execute?
 

KyGopherfan said:
I said the same thing and got blasted. Being in Kentucky, I'm all too familiar with the Pitino/Donovan brand of basketball and it's entirely true that you need elite players to execute it, ortherwise Minnesota will just be Alabama of the north. Anthony Grant is a classic example of how lacking elite talent doesn't make that Pitino/Donovan system look so great. Grant did well in the mid-majors but has flopped in the big leagues. Just merely playing up-tempo is no guarantee for success. The rest of the B1G is not gonna roll over and play dead for Richard Pitino. They'll figure it out and adjust. The coaches are just too good in this league.
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+1
 



KyGopherfan said:
I said the same thing and got blasted. Being in Kentucky, I'm all too familiar with the Pitino/Donovan brand of basketball and it's entirely true that you need elite players to execute it, ortherwise Minnesota will just be Alabama of the north. Anthony Grant is a classic example of how lacking elite talent doesn't make that Pitino/Donovan system look so great. Grant did well in the mid-majors but has flopped in the big leagues. Just merely playing up-tempo is no guarantee for success. The rest of the B1G is not gonna roll over and play dead for Richard Pitino. They'll figure it out and adjust. The coaches are just too good in this league.
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You realize that Anthony Grant's offense in almost no way resembles the style of play implemented by the Pitino's, right?
 

die hard gopher said:
It's nice having a Minnesotan in the national media like Myron, the gophers get a lot more attention and articles written about them then if he wasn't there, also Andy Katz went to Indiana and among Brennan is from Iowa and lives in Chicago so the gophers/big ten get alot of attrntion on that website, the only blogger I don't like is Dana O'niel, she isn't a big ten girl, she is an east coast ACC/ Big East girl I believe
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Actually I think O'Neill is a Penn St grad. I believe she has written articles about PSU stating that, talking about the basketball culture there (or lack thereof) and analyzing how hard the coaching job is.
 

mnhoopboy said:
I think that the Big Ten (Wisky being the exception) is moving away from the grind it out style of play from years past and moving towards a more recruit-friendly style that is similar to what Pitino is trying to implement here. Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, and to some degree Michigan State certainly bucked that trend this past year and did so with success. People said the same thing about McCaffery's style when he first came to the league and with patience the fans in Iowa City are starting to see results. He simply had to get his players in his system. Certainly won't happen overnight.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Big East has a similar reputation as being a "grind it out" conference, yet all Rick Pitino has done is come in and win 30 games a year and compete for conference and national titles. The system works anywhere, just need the horses. This is why Richard Pitino has continually stressed the importance of recruiting since he's come on board.

And ask Matt Painter if this style of play won't work in the Big Ten after his team played VCU in the 2011 NCAA Tourney.
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Numbers don't exactly prove your theory. It is interesting though that you perceive Michigan to be this run and gun team and they average a whopping three more possessions a game than the glacial Badgers. The Go Go Gophers of last year were a thrill a minute also. Flying up and down the court at number 278.

The five best teams in the conference were 2nd, 6th, 7th, 8th and 11th in tempo.

For reference, Little Ricky averaged 68.9 and was 48th. It will be fun to see if he can make it work. Unfortunately, I think he understands that it is not the number of possessions, but how efficiently you make use of them. That indicates he has a fighting chance.

Adjusted Tempo in Big 10 - 2013

Iowa 67,4 104
Indiana 67.3 109
Purdue 67 119
PSU 65.6 187
Illinois 65.5 193
Michigan 65.1 210
Ohio St 65 214
MSU 64.1 255
Minnesota 63.4 278
Neb 61,8 314
UW 61.7 318
Northwestern 61.1 326
 

I'm surprised they think so highly of Michigan, that they're on par with MSU and a notch above OSU. Brennan would've lost me sooner if I had read that Michigan was a national title contender earlier than after I had to read it over again - the Wolverines don't have a snowballs chance in you-know-where for the NC next year. They never would've made it past Kansas if not for a heroic performance by Burke last year - and he gone. Done. Not coming back to Ann Arbor. MSU is the favorite, not co-favorite with UM as Brennan and Medcalf make it seem. They just lost the NPOY, and their second-leading scorer as well who was borderline 1st team all-Big Ten. Harder to replace that duo than Thomas-Ravenel, though both teams have a combination of freshmen and returnees to help do the job. I don't put a ton of stock in these guys' opinions. I'm amazed at how confident they seem that MSU and UM are already locks for the top-2 spots in the league. Indiana definitely has the most boom or bust potential - they are the most unpredictable team, as with all the change they have had and all the new players, they are just as likely to be an NIT team as a top-10 team. Iowa I think should make the tourney, they have been making progress towards this season and showed well in the NIT last year, and return almost all of their top players plus add Uthoff. I do have to say I smiled in checking out that photo of Bo Ryan with the "Deal With It" towels waving behind him at OSU - that is because his response to Sullinger complaining about being spat on by a fan in Madison was he didn't see any video evidence, and the Badgers won the game, so deal with it.
 

I'm just surprised that anyone actually still reads anything on ESPN.com.
 

tjgopher said:
Can you show some specific examples of this Iowa bias flying from Eamon?
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Don't normally have time for this, but here you go: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/bubblewatch

The biggest litmus test for selection committee dogma -- for the predictable nexus of RPI, SOS, nonconference schedule and performance against the various nitty-gritty rankings breakdowns (top 50, top 100 and so on) that have made bracket selection a relatively predictable affair -- will be the Iowa Hawkeyes. The Hawks lost to Michigan State in a close game Friday and were the victims of a few questionable calls down the stretch. They were also one of the 40 or so best teams in the country by just about every metric except the RPI, and their performance -- even if you are relying on sketchy criteria like conference record (9-9 in the Big Ten), per-possession statistics (the Hawks play top-20 efficiency defense) or even the infamous "eye test" -- make the Hawkeyes look like a much better team than a handful of more staid bubble contenders.

Iowa [21-12 (9-9), RPI: 79, SOS: 129] Just a brutal loss for Iowa on Friday night. For the second time, the Hawkeyes lost a close game this season -- another of a string of close losses (Indiana, at Minnesota, at Wisconsin), any of which could would have made the Hawks less desperate to beat Michigan State at the United Center. As it stands, Iowa will go down as a very solid young team that lacked the wins (and the schedule) to make a realistic push for an NCAA tournament spot. I'll keep these guys on the page as an homage, and for the minuscule chance the NCAA pulls a reverse Minnesota on them, but yeah -- not happening.

Prosecution rests, Eamon is an Iowa homer.
 

EG#9 said:
Don't normally have time for this, but here you go: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/bubblewatch

The biggest litmus test for selection committee dogma -- for the predictable nexus of RPI, SOS, nonconference schedule and performance against the various nitty-gritty rankings breakdowns (top 50, top 100 and so on) that have made bracket selection a relatively predictable affair -- will be the Iowa Hawkeyes. The Hawks lost to Michigan State in a close game Friday and were the victims of a few questionable calls down the stretch. They were also one of the 40 or so best teams in the country by just about every metric except the RPI, and their performance -- even if you are relying on sketchy criteria like conference record (9-9 in the Big Ten), per-possession statistics (the Hawks play top-20 efficiency defense) or even the infamous "eye test" -- make the Hawkeyes look like a much better team than a handful of more staid bubble contenders.

Iowa [21-12 (9-9), RPI: 79, SOS: 129] Just a brutal loss for Iowa on Friday night. For the second time, the Hawkeyes lost a close game this season -- another of a string of close losses (Indiana, at Minnesota, at Wisconsin), any of which could would have made the Hawks less desperate to beat Michigan State at the United Center. As it stands, Iowa will go down as a very solid young team that lacked the wins (and the schedule) to make a realistic push for an NCAA tournament spot. I'll keep these guys on the page as an homage, and for the minuscule chance the NCAA pulls a reverse Minnesota on them, but yeah -- not happening.

Prosecution rests, Eamon is an Iowa homer.
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I wouldn't exactly call that damning evidence that this guy is an Iowa homer. Looks like something almost any reasonable sportswriter would pen and many did write similar things this past spring about that team, including Pat Ruesse, who is clearly not an Iowa (or Minnesota) homer.

Brennan didn't attend Iowa. He attended another Big Ten University, though.
 

tjgopher said:
I wouldn't exactly call that damning evidence that this guy is an Iowa homer. Looks like something almost any reasonable sportswriter would pen and many did write similar things this past spring about that team, including Pat Ruesse, who is clearly not an Iowa (or Minnesota) homer.

Brennan didn't attend Iowa. He attended another Big Ten University, though.
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Brennan is from Iowa. If you think an article on the bubble should have lead with a discussion about Iowa ( a team not even on the bubble) and included things like "questionable calls" and keeping them on the list as an "homage", then we will have to agree to disagree.
 

EG#9 said:
Brennan is from Iowa. If you think an article on the bubble should have lead with a discussion about Iowa ( a team not even on the bubble) and included things like "questionable calls" and keeping them on the list as an "homage", then we will have to agree to disagree.
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I had the same opinion back at that time, when I read it on ESPN, as you do now. Those were bigtime Iowa-homer articles and ESPN.com seemed to be all about Iowa at some points this season, while Myron was Myron always is Myron and attacks or otherwise degrades the Gophers in most of his blog articles.
 

Questionable calls should not even be mentioned when you talk about Iowa being on the bubble last year. If it's not like that Iowa State - Kansas game where the refs clearly affected the outcome at the very end, no objective person (i.e., ESPN commentator) should be blaming a team being on the bubble on the officiating of a single game. Any one game aside, you're only on the bubble when your team has undoubtedly compiled an otherwise weak resume.

I do feel that McCaffery is building something at Iowa and they will be better this year, probably an NCAA tourney team.
 


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