EE & Mo Together Thoughts

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tinyarch said:
We would have to slow down and run out of a 1-4 high set in order to have any offensive success with both players on the court. So far I've yet to see Coach Pitino run anything out of a 1-4 set. He generally starts with a 4 out 1 in set, which is designed for more guards on the floor. How many of us would advocate for an entire switch in philosophy at this point in the season? I wouldn't. Because of Coach Pitino's approach and philosophy to offense, it makes it illogical to run both Elliot and Mo together. That being said...I could always be wrong.
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We're not winning so everything should be on the table, especially with a senior dominated team. The Puchtel move by Monson was pure genius in hindsight by someone who was generally viewed as overmatched in the Big Ten from a coaching perspective
 

At 0-4, I'd be will to put Lukasewich, Schell, and Dr. Don on the court at the same time.
 


cjbfbp said:
I'm not too crazy about EE & Mo together either although I could see it work for very short minute periods. Konate with Walker would probably work better but I thought Elliot and Konate off the bench worked OK when it was tried in preconference. I think Elliot and Joey off the bench would work well enough again as that has been done many times before (most of last season as starters).

Elliot can score (highest FG% on the team) but he can't do it by creating his own shot; he usually needs a good pass or a follow up of a missed shot. He can play away from the basket but only for passing and some defending of stretch big men.
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Elliot cannot score. Period. One of the worst offensive players I have ever seen. Here's a simulation you can try: Pull a waste basket up next to your desk, put a wad of paper in your hand, move your hand to one foot from the basket. Shoot. If you make it- congrats, you have EE FG% ability.
 

bga1 said:
If you make it- congrats, you have EE FG% ability.
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So a roughly 70% field goal percentage has been falsified? I agree that Elliot is a terrible offensive player (much worse than usual lately) but when he has gotten a pass in the right position, or grabbed/tipped a missed shot, he has put it home with high efficiency this season. You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Of course, you may not recognize the difference between the two.
 


Hey Gopher Warrior;

A twin tower like approach to improver our interior defense makes sense to me if it is used as a tool to disrupt a teams offensive progression. So I agree with the idea of limited minutes. I mentioned that Pitino should create some kind of set plays in general to ease the pressure off players during high stress points during a game. This approach can fall in this line as it will create much needed defensive support in the interior.

My thoughts today post Iowa:

Elliot was way more focused on trapping players on the baseline and going for the blocks. Earlier in the season he would play more for position on getting rebound opportunities. I think the coaching staff instructed EE to be more assertive on shutting down shooting opportunities. I feel like this change in focus explains his stat line and heavy fouls.

With your theory its possible that allowing Mo to focus on his aggressive defense and Elliot on rebound positioning could improve our defensive end among other things.

Another General Trend with Iowa's game included in the sampling:

Here's one challenging thought on your idea in which this twin tower approach does not embrace this teams dynamic, but not necessarily an issue because its intended to be used in a limited way. That's pace.

One key trend I have been looking at (other then the loss to Louisville) is we lose games when our pace is down. Looking at wins in general we have had a pace around 73-76 and as of conference play we have lost with a pace getting down to 63. I am sure this stat trend is a reflection of teams defensively slowing us down (1-3-1 zone etc) and our inability to snap out of the downward spiral offensively because we get in situations where we are taking desperate shots or eat up a lot of the shot clock trying to throw the ball around the perimeter among other things. None the less teams are controlling the possession game through their highly effective defense on us and our inability to find solutions to counter these defensive schemes.

Your idea could cause some disruption by forcing turn overs if sprung at the appropriate time to increase the amount of possessions.

What do you think about my thought path here?
 

cjbfbp said:
So a roughly 70% field goal percentage has been falsified? I agree that Elliot is a terrible offensive player (much worse than usual lately) but when he has gotten a pass in the right position, or grabbed/tipped a missed shot, he has put it home with high efficiency this season. You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Of course, you may not recognize the difference between the two.
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No- he shoots 70% all right. When he gets a pass in exactly the right position- say within inches of the bucket. My point is not that the statistic is wrong- just that it is a ridiculous statistic that means nothing. Sorry, I am just tired of watching him play basketball. I love his spirit and hope his GPA is excellent.
 

bga1 said:
My point is not that the statistic is wrong- just that it is a ridiculous statistic that means nothing
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Hold on. So you are really saying shooting percentage means nothing?
 

HOOP DREAMS said:
Hold on. So you are really saying shooting percentage means nothing?
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He's saying that Elliot's field goal percentage isn't relevant because he's averaging only 2.5 field goal attempts per game (Only 1.6 field goal attempts per game in conference games). It's possible that you can conclude that he's failing to operate in the teams offensive scheme to get shooting opportunities and for the 5 spot that hurts the team.
 




bga1 said:
No- he shoots 70% all right. When he gets a pass in exactly the right position- say within inches of the bucket. My point is not that the statistic is wrong- just that it is a ridiculous statistic that means nothing. Sorry, I am just tired of watching him play basketball. I love his spirit and hope his GPA is excellent.
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OK, that's much better and I'm not saying that just because we both agree. Don't allow emotions to overcome mental and verbal clarity. I won't go as far as saying the statistic is "ridiculous" (again, lazy word choices with inadequate attention to clarity) but the statistic does not give a true indication of this player's limitations.

Always remember something. A person can be lazy, irresponsible, and not that bright, but if that person speaks and writes well, he will fool most people for some time.
 

HOOP DREAMS said:
I'm well aware of that.

He's got ~45 shots this season... not 2. Of course FG% matters.
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I don't disagree with you, but a relevant question is why does EE take so few shots per game?

Pitino uses Elliot a lot to run up from the paint to set a pick at the top of the key for our point guard (Matthieu and Mason). It usually isn't a pick and roll because Elliot doesn't have the speed, but usually Matthieu or Mason will slash the interior and pass out to their perimeter options or take it to the hoop. This play happens to be pretty successful unless were facing these 1-3-1 defensive schemes.

Is consistently pulling Elliot out of the paint the most effective way to run our offense to generate points even though it takes Elliot out of an effective position to play post or even rebound?

Could Mo and EE be more effective in limited time playing together? I think it's possible especially if Carlos or Joey are cold on the perimeter. You allow Elliot to setup perimeter picks while keep Mo — a good post player — to stay near the basket as a pass option for our guards. I like having this option especially in these 1-3-1 defensive play where it can be difficult to get a good shot on the perimeter and could really give us an opportunity to shake our opponents up.

My initial thought was the same as Gopher Lady: Tubby exploited twin towers the year we snook into the big dance with Colt and Sampson and it was a useful tool in the right situation.

For some of these guys here to say "Elliot is the worst shooter out there" really doesn't address any problems with the team because Elliot isn't shooting much anyways.
 

The thing that hasn't been tried is leaving EE and Mo on the bench at the same time. Neither is rebounding, defending, shooting, dribbling, or passing very well. I'd prefer to see anyone else stand in at center and run 4 guards.
 



woozee said:
It's possible that you can conclude that he's failing to operate in the teams offensive scheme to get shooting opportunities
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Problem with that conclusion; EE is getting the most attempts per minutes of his career.

Shots per 40mpg:

Sr.- 7.19
Jr.- 7.12
So.- 5.54
Fr.- 6.09
 

woozee said:
I don't disagree with you, but a relevant question is why does EE take so few shots per game?

Pitino uses Elliot a lot to run up from the paint to set a pick at the top of the key for our point guard (Matthieu and Mason). It usually isn't a pick and roll because Elliot doesn't have the speed, but usually Matthieu or Mason will slash the interior and pass out to their perimeter options or take it to the hoop. This play happens to be pretty successful unless were facing these 1-3-1 defensive schemes.

Is consistently pulling Elliot out of the paint the most effective way to run our offense to generate points even though it takes Elliot out of an effective position to play post or even rebound?

Could Mo and EE be more effective in limited time playing together? I think it's possible especially if Carlos or Joey are cold on the perimeter. You allow Elliot to setup perimeter picks while keep Mo — a good post player — to stay near the basket as a pass option for our guards. I like having this option especially in these 1-3-1 defensive play where it can be difficult to get a good shot on the perimeter and could really give us an opportunity to shake our opponents up.

My initial thought was the same as Gopher Lady: Tubby exploited twin towers the year we snook into the big dance with Colt and Sampson and it was a useful tool in the right situation.

For some of these guys here to say "Elliot is the worst shooter out there" really doesn't address any problems with the team because Elliot isn't shooting much anyways.
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In my opinion -- no. It is the one thing that they try to do that annoys me. It takes Mo and/or Elliot away from the basket for rebounding or posting up and in general clogs up the middle for poorer passing lanes by bringing another big defender up top. Also, neither of them actually rolls to the basket after setting the screen.
 

golfing18now said:
In my opinion -- no. It is the one thing that they try to do that annoys me. It takes Mo and/or Elliot away from the basket for rebounding or posting up and in general clogs up the middle for poorer passing lanes by bringing another big defender up top. Also, neither of them actually rolls to the basket after setting the screen.
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Yeah; I don't know. My head is spinning with possible outcomes especially with adding Mo in the lineup to play with EE.
 

HOOP DREAMS said:
Problem with that conclusion; EE is getting the most attempts per minutes of his career.

Shots per 40mpg:

Sr.- 7.19
Jr.- 7.12
So.- 5.54
Fr.- 6.09
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Faster offense. More possessions I would guess. First two years were Tubby. This year is mostly non-conference.
 

LakerFan said:
The thing that hasn't been tried is leaving EE and Mo on the bench at the same time. Neither is rebounding, defending, shooting, dribbling, or passing very well. I'd prefer to see anyone else stand in at center and run 4 guards.
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Ankle biter lineup!
 


HOOP DREAMS said:
Not nessasarily.



Nothing new to this season.
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Elliot over the years:

14-15 Team- 78 pts per game EE 14 minutes/gm 4.2pts average
13-14 Team- 71.4 pts per game EE 21.9 mins 5 pts
12-13 team - 68pts per game EE 13.7 mins 2.2pts
11-12 team - 67.6 per game EE 15 mins 2.6pts

He is a little more efficient than last year. He pretty much is what he is and has been from day 1. Good effort guy.
 

They both had four fouls last night subbing for one another. Playing together they would both be in foul trouble in a heartbeat. (Eliason picked up his second foul 2 minutes and 47 seconds in.) Obviously Pitino doesn't think Konate is worthy of any action so you go with those two in and out for one another during the course of the game. I, for one, hope it isn't even a passing thought in Pitino's mind.
 


woozee said:
Hey Gopher Warrior;

A twin tower like approach to improver our interior defense makes sense to me if it is used as a tool to disrupt a teams offensive progression. So I agree with the idea of limited minutes. I mentioned that Pitino should create some kind of set plays in general to ease the pressure off players during high stress points during a game. This approach can fall in this line as it will create much needed defensive support in the interior.

My thoughts today post Iowa:

Elliot was way more focused on trapping players on the baseline and going for the blocks. Earlier in the season he would play more for position on getting rebound opportunities. I think the coaching staff instructed EE to be more assertive on shutting down shooting opportunities. I feel like this change in focus explains his stat line and heavy fouls.

With your theory its possible that allowing Mo to focus on his aggressive defense and Elliot on rebound positioning could improve our defensive end among other things.

Another General Trend with Iowa's game included in the sampling:

Here's one challenging thought on your idea in which this twin tower approach does not embrace this teams dynamic, but not necessarily an issue because its intended to be used in a limited way. That's pace.

One key trend I have been looking at (other then the loss to Louisville) is we lose games when our pace is down. Looking at wins in general we have had a pace around 73-76 and as of conference play we have lost with a pace getting down to 63. I am sure this stat trend is a reflection of teams defensively slowing us down (1-3-1 zone etc) and our inability to snap out of the downward spiral offensively because we get in situations where we are taking desperate shots or eat up a lot of the shot clock trying to throw the ball around the perimeter among other things. None the less teams are controlling the possession game through their highly effective defense on us and our inability to find solutions to counter these defensive schemes.

Your idea could cause some disruption by forcing turn overs if sprung at the appropriate time to increase the amount of possessions.

What do you think about my thought path here?
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On tempo, etc... some of this is posted on LateNightHoops.com, but here's the gist: Gophers (and any team) can score in transition. It's a good scoring opportunity for you when you steal the ball. What's happened against more difficult opponents is that Minnesota turns the other team over less, resulting in longer possessions for the other team (lower tempo) and worse offense (fewer transition opportunities).

All related. I think the Gophers can* be fine at any tempo. The bad thing is they're not going to be able to turn over Big Ten teams as much as they need to in order to gain a significant advantage. Too many other things are wrong with this team.

Anyway.. I think Minnesota's offense can have success in a lower possession game... but their defense... gonna struggle when the other team is controlling things and not coughing it up.

As for EE in the Iowa game.. I think when you start him (or anyone) with Charles Buggs you are putting the center at a big disadvantage because he's going to need to clean up some of the messes left by Buggs defensively. Starting Buggs was very odd to me and a bit concerning.

Eliason had a puke game and HAS TO rebound if he's going to play. But... glad he only turned it over once. Could have been worse.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
At 0-4, I'd be will to put Lukasewich, Schell, and Dr. Don on the court at the same time.
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I'd put dpodoll out there as well but he'd be too busy arguing with the referee on each possession (and possibly getting T'd up) so we'd be playing 4 on 5 amd down unnecessary free throws!
 

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