Doug Gottlieb: Pharrel Payne can play for me anytime. Kid plays hard and is athletic and strong.

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Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0 said:
I've always believed Gottlieb has an elite basketball mind!
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Many here have said the same thing as Gottlieb. Does that mean we all have elite basketball minds??

BTW, who the heck is Gottlieb and what makes him any more knowledgeable than many here? Guess he is probably some overpaid talking bobblehead.
 

Bayfieldgopher said:
Many here have said the same thing as Gottlieb. Does that mean we all have elite basketball minds??

BTW, who the heck is Gottlieb and what makes him any more knowledgeable than many here? Guess he is probably some overpaid talking bobblehead.
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Former thief turned arrogant douche on tv. He's right about payne though.
 

Bayfieldgopher said:
BTW, who the heck is Gottlieb and what makes him any more knowledgeable than many here? Guess he is probably some overpaid talking bobblehead.
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He's a long time basketball analyst. Mostly you see him on CBS. He played for OK State in college and professionally in minor and international leagues.

He's not saying anything that we haven't heard from just about every Big Ten Network talking head but he might have a larger national audience.
 


cjbfbp said:
He's a long time basketball analyst. Mostly you see him on CBS. He played for OK State in college and professionally in minor and international leagues.

He's not saying anything that we haven't heard from just about every Big Ten Network talking head but he might have a larger national audience.
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And he has one of the most annoying arrogant voices for any analyst ever - the kind of guy you’d love to run into a blind pick set by Payne
 


Bad Gopher said:
Nothing new, but wow does Payne give effort. And nothing new, but why can't the guy be in the starting lineup?
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He had the one play against Maryland where he sprinted the length of the court on defense, came up with a loose ball and saved it in bounds....it was amazing for a guy of his size.

I don't know why the starting thing bothers people. There is obviously a reason why they feel more comfortable with JOJ out there at the very start of the game. Payne is always the first in off the bench and he logs starter level minutes so it isn't like he is languishing on the bench and not being used.
 

MNVCGUY said:
I don't know why the starting thing bothers people. There is obviously a reason why they feel more comfortable with JOJ out there at the very start of the game. Payne is always the first in off the bench and he logs starter level minutes so it isn't like he is languishing on the bench and not being used.
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Because it doesn't make any sense to start a 6'5" guy who guards PFs and Cs, only to bring in a 6'9" guy who does the same and is a far better player 3 minutes later.
 
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Bad Gopher said:
Nothing new, but wow does Payne give effort. And nothing new, but why can't the guy be in the starting lineup?
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I got a decent guess:

I coached a lot of baseball. The Mental Toughness/ Grit coaching approach is crucial. So I had occasion to dig inro it at a high level.

I also read an interview in the Stib with Pharrel. He talks about not starting was gonna be one of his biggest challenges.

So If I was coaching I would build a plan, that’s well communicated, with the goal of overcoming that obstacle. The benefits are immense.

The most succinct way to explain is It’s the start of how you coach “it.” By “it” I mean the part that is missing from say, Karl Anthony Towns or D’angelo Russell. Whereby you see immense skills, but it just doesn’t quite click. You can’t say why, but everyone knows.

In contrast, guys who famously used these principles locally, are 4 Twins (they called their group the A-Holes) who started practicing this way in the early 80s: Kent Hrbek, Gary Gaetti, Gary Ward, and Tom Brunansky.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
Because it doesn't make any sense to start a 6'5" guy who guards PFs and Cs, only to bring in a 6'9" guy who does the same and is a far better player 3 minutes later.
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Payne always in foul trouble. Maybe he does better not starting? I never give this staff the benefit of the doubt though.
 

Gopheritnow said:
Possibly because Payne is foul prone? Just guessing here. Not sure how Evans will turn out, but I would not trade Payne for him. His footwork is approaching McHale level already.
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Payne approaching McHale level footwork already. Seems hyperbolic at best. A nice up and under here and there? Sure. And even if it’s the best move in basketball he isn’t McHale or close. He isn’t Hakeem either. Or any other of the great footwork guys. Maybe someday but to say he’s approaching it is ridiculous.

He struggles to back people down. Happened against Maryland when Reese was guarding him. Got great position and gave it up. Caught the ball just outside of the painted area. Took 3 dribbles to get towards the hoop. Moved 0 feet. Passed. Maybe McHale wouldn’t have had an option either—but he would have.
 



atsgopher said:
I got a decent guess:

I coached a lot of baseball. The Mental Toughness/ Grit coaching approach is crucial. So I had occasion to dig inro it at a high level.

I also read an interview in the Stib with Pharrel. He talks about not starting was gonna be one of his biggest challenges.

So If I was coaching I would build a plan, that’s well communicated, with the goal of overcoming that obstacle. The benefits are immense.

The most succinct way to explain is It’s the start of how you coach “it.” By “it” I mean the part that is missing from say, Karl Anthony Towns or D’angelo Russell. Whereby you see immense skills, but it just doesn’t quite click. You can’t say why, but everyone knows.

In contrast, guys who famously used these principles locally, are 4 Twins (they called their group the A-Holes) who started practicing this way in the early 80s: Kent Hrbek, Gary Gaetti, Gary Ward, and Tom Brunansky.
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UpAndUnder43 said:
Payne approaching McHale level footwork already. Seems hyperbolic at best. A nice up and under here and there? Sure. And even if it’s the best move in basketball he isn’t McHale or close. He isn’t Hakeem either. Or any other of the great footwork guys. Maybe someday but to say he’s approaching it is ridiculous.

He struggles to back people down. Happened against Maryland when Reese was guarding him. Got great position and gave it up. Caught the ball just outside of the painted area. Took 3 dribbles to get towards the hoop. Moved 0 feet. Passed. Maybe McHale wouldn’t have had an option either—but he would have.
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First year and Reese is a Sophomore; Payne has a higher ceiling IMO - he’s already a better version of Malik Renau IU Freshman who was ranked 30 overall in the same class. Ben is a great talent evaluatior - his coaching just needs to catch up and yes that can happen, as it does will most of us that improve in our vocations over time.
Payne put a ton of muscle from HS to this year, has great feet and big soft paws, he’ll be 270/275 and terrorizing people non the p 🎨 - better version of John Thomas before he is agitated round pick - bookmark it!

 
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Bayfieldgopher said:
Many here have said the same thing as Gottlieb. Does that mean we all have elite basketball minds??

BTW, who the heck is Gottlieb and what makes him any more knowledgeable than many here? Guess he is probably some overpaid talking bobblehead.
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It's a bit! Gottlieb might be the worst basketball mind in all sports media for all I know.

Perhaps eat a Snickers to take the edge off a little!
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Because it doesn't make any sense to start a 6'5" guy who guards PFs and Cs, only to bring in a 6'9" guy who does the same and is a far better player 3 minutes later.
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JOJ is 6'7" not 6'5" but regardless they clearly have a reason for why they are doing what they are doing in terms of the starting lineup. At the end of the day both guys averaged 22 minutes a game this year and I highly doubt that Payne being on the court for the opening tip had any impact on the end result of the games.
 

MNVCGUY said:
JOJ is 6'7" not 6'5" but regardless they clearly have a reason for why they are doing what they are doing in terms of the starting lineup. At the end of the day both guys averaged 22 minutes a game this year and I highly doubt that Payne being on the court for the opening tip had any impact on the end result of the games.
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Just because he’s listed at 6’7” doesn’t mean he is, which he’s clearly not.

It makes zero sense to not start your best players, especially when you’re a last place team and starting someone who’s the same age, and doesn’t have a position over Payne.
 
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Least it wasn’t the Ola-Joseph/Edey matchup in the first Purdue game that can never be forgiven.

Side note: pretty sure Gottlieb’s father had something to do with Maverick A heading here.

Sorry, on topic. Payne is really doing well. Fun to watch him get better. Been hitting his shots at an astounding rate.
 
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Maybe when Ben and JOJ have conversations it’s in a stairwell or something and Ola-Joseph is standing a step or two up from Ben.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
First year and Reese is a Sophomore; Payne has a higher ceiling IMO - he’s already a better version of Malik Renau IU Freshman who was ranked 30 overall in the same class. Ben is a great talent evaluatior - his coaching just needs to catch up and yes that can happen, as it does will most of us that improve in our vocations over time.
Payne put a ton of muscle from HS to this year, has great feet and big soft paws, he’ll be 270/275 and terrorizing people non the p 🎨 - better version of John Thomas before he is agitated round pick - bookmark it!

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Payne is unique. He has freakishly good hands and hangs onto almost everything that comes near him, great footwork, strength, and quickness, and has some very good ability as a passer, which I hope they'll utilize in the coming years. It's also likely with his frame that by next year he'll be about 270 lbs.

The thing that will determine whether he's a great, not just really good player, is whether he can develop and use a short jumper and jump hook when he has the ball in his hands. If he can make other bigs guard him 15 feet and in from the basket, he has the ability to blow by most by putting it on the floor. He has the type of quickness to do that. But he needs to have the threat of his shot in order to do that. The free throw shooting goes along with that, and you could see some improvement on that as the year progressed. This guy has better touch than a Jordan Murphy, and I'm so hopeful that after a Spring and Summer of thousands of jumpers and free throws, he can add that to his arsenal. I think it will happen. And that alone adds a huge amount to their offense next year.

And that would mean he would be a great, not really good player.
 

Formerswish said:
Payne is unique. He has freakishly good hands and hangs onto almost everything that comes near him, great footwork, strength, and quickness, and has some very good ability as a passer, which I hope they'll utilize in the coming years. It's also likely with his frame that by next year he'll be about 270 lbs.

The thing that will determine whether he's a great, not just really good player, is whether he can develop and use a short jumper and jump hook when he has the ball in his hands. If he can make other bigs guard him 15 feet and in from the basket, he has the ability to blow by most by putting it on the floor. He has the type of quickness to do that. But he needs to have the threat of his shot in order to do that. The free throw shooting goes along with that, and you could see some improvement on that as the year progressed. This guy has better touch than a Jordan Murphy, and I'm so hopeful that after a Spring and Summer of thousands of jumpers and free throws, he can add that to his arsenal. I think it will happen. And that alone adds a huge amount to their offense next year.

And that would mean he would be a great, not really good player.
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I think we’re witnessing the nascent stages of a great player - he hustles all the time, has great body language/positive court presence and the work he did to transform his body from HS and how he improved his free throw shooting by the end of the season - lends me to think he’ll be the guy you have to kick off the court. Past results are the best indicator of future results😃,
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
First year and Reese is a Sophomore; Payne has a higher ceiling IMO - he’s already a better version of Malik Renau IU Freshman who was ranked 30 overall in the same class. Ben is a great talent evaluatior - his coaching just needs to catch up and yes that can happen, as it does will most of us that improve in our vocations over time.
Payne put a ton of muscle from HS to this year, has great feet and big soft paws, he’ll be 270/275 and terrorizing people non the p 🎨 - better version of John Thomas before he is agitated round pick - bookmark it!

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None of this addresses that he isn’t nearing McHale’s footwork which was what my response was about.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
I think we’re witnessing the nascent stages of a great player - he hustles all the time, has great body language/positive court presence and the work he did to transform his body from HS and how he improved his free throw shooting by the end of the season - lends me to think he’ll be the guy you have to kick off the court. Past results are the best indicator of future results😃,
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“Past results are the best indicator of future results” is fundamentally incorrect. If you believe this you should want Johnson fired immediately.
 


UpAndUnder43 said:
Payne always in foul trouble. Maybe he does better not starting? I never give this staff the benefit of the doubt though.
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Ben would rather have him at the end of the game than the beginning.
 


UpAndUnder43 said:
“Past results are the best indicator of future results” is fundamentally incorrect. If you believe this you should want Johnson fired immediately.
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Wow….. who pissed in you Cheerios today Sparky?

Do you have any logic to offer besides your fire Ben boner?

It is my experience, regarding player development, past results are the best indicator of future results.

I personally don’t think Ben has had enough of an opportunity and will feel if we don’t take a big stride forward next year, then it will be time for a change; ironically Ben’s improvement is impacted by his players, which I dig.
 
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