Doogie: Tubby's Ski-U-Blah season accepted

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SelectionSunday said:
Barn Burner, yes, I know who excuses are for. ... losers. And yes, I'm the one who 4-5 years ago on this board said and still believes that "Excuses are for losers". I'm flattered that something I posted years ago has made such an impact on you and that you can recite it at a moment's notice. Thank you.

At least now when you bring up the "We know who excuses are for. ..." line every so often, folks here other than me will know what the heck you're talking about.
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Pretty easy to remember SS - no need to thank me for something that was easily written by you a few short years ago.

Now, there is nary a mention of the "excuses" line. For 3 plus years, the excuses have flowed non-stop.

No "excuses" line from SS.

It is apparent that you feel the "excuses" line is not applicable to Tubby. The question is why.

A reasonable person could conclude that there is some hypocrisy in your approach.
 

...that Tubby was somehow more at fault than Devoe in that whole mess. I just don't think that's true, and I don't think it's fair to Tubby
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Souhan has morphed into his new role of contrarian quite smoothly. He looks at the general perception of a topic, then takes the opposite view thus creating controvesy which get internet clicks on the StarTrib or KSTP websites. Clicks = readership/listeners. That's what his bosses look for and that's what it is all about. Same with Ruesse, Doogie et al.

As for the Iowa losses not counting maybe we shouldn't count any losses that a healthy Nolan or an unsuspended Joseph didn't played in as real losses either. Of course we will keep the wins.
 

I am a believer is natural selection. Therefore, I naturally select wins only, so in my book, Tubby is 32-0 my way. :confused:
 

Silvio said:
FOT - how many more losses should the team of had last year?

My point being that they were an average Big Ten team. They lost games they should have won and won games they should have lost. This is what average teams do, they struggle to play consistently at their best for a full season.
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Last year? My belief is that At IU, At NWU (both L in OT) and Mich St, Purdue At Home (led both until the very end) should have been W.

Your belief may differ.
 



Friend Of Tubby said:
Nope. I've said that, time and again. Few read, nobody remembers.

HOF coaches are few and far between.
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FOT, and HOF commentors on GH are fewer and farther between. BTW, my memory is like my weenie....good but short.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Nope. I've said that, time and again. Few read, nobody remembers.

HOF coaches are few and far between.
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That may be, but your tone towards Tubby has changed. Another season like this and you'll change your name to "Casual Acquaintance of Tubby".
 

Mulligan said:
That may be, but your tone towards Tubby has changed. Another season like this and you'll change your name to "Casual Acquaintance of Tubby".
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Does that mean instead of FOT we get to call him CAT?

Still would be better that than be called dboy. :)
 

I was going to say that exact same thing. Apparently wins vs. Iowa don't count. That's a Souhan/Reusse type statistic to exaggerate the current shape of the program.

howeda7 said:
The overall article is fair, but Doogie's new favorite stat is the 'Tubby's Big 10 record is 26-40 not counting Iowa.' He's been citing it over and over. Give it a rest. He's also 32-32 not counting Michigan State. Neither is relavent. The real record, 32-40 is bad enough and conveys the issue. No need to artifically make it worse my cherry-picking which wins 'don't count' to prove your point, Doogie.
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I thought those comments were pretty funny as well. You can say almost every team other than maybe Kentucky "swung and missed" on some top recruits.

howeda7 said:
The overall article is fair, but Doogie's new favorite stat is the 'Tubby's Big 10 record is 26-40 not counting Iowa.' He's been citing it over and over. Give it a rest. He's also 32-32 not counting Michigan State. Neither is relavent. The real record, 32-40 is bad enough and conveys the issue. No need to artifically make it worse my cherry-picking which wins 'don't count' to prove your point, Doogie.
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Blizzard said:
I also think Doogie's article is reasonably fair. Honestly, after the season we had, it's pretty hard to deflect any criticism thrown at Tubby.

Lord knows I'm certainly no expect in recruiting, but, who from this list, aside from Joseph, was significant this year, that would have realistically come to Minnesota?



Is swung and missed a fair statement? Or an opinion?

Kreklow didn't do anything at Mizzou.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/players/97437

Releford would have been in a situation knowing he would have been backing up Nolen, then Joseph, then maybe Allen.

Alex Kirk? No idea. Still playing behind a few big guys for a couple of years. Nice offer list though. Nothing from the midwest.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/stanford/basketball/recruiting/player-Alex-Kirk-76799
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Doogie, come defend yourself. I don't think your buddies will come defend you like you defend them.
 

Mulligan said:
That may be, but your tone towards Tubby has changed. Another season like this and you'll change your name to "Casual Acquaintance of Tubby".
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That's simply inaccurate. He's a very good coach. Not HOF coach (yet). That simple.
 

I've got a lot of issues with Doogie's article for it being so short. The Gophers were not Mo Walker and Al Nolen away from reaching a 3rd consecutive tournament. They didn't need Mo Walker to make the tournament. Ricky Kreklow from???? That's right Columbia, Missouri and he ended up at Missouri. Alex Kirk from??? Las Cruces, New Mexico and he ended up at New Mexico. These are terrible examples of "swinging and missing". There are good examples of Tubby failing to land the type of talent we expected him to land, but mentioning these guys weakens his point. The idea that Minnesota can't do better than Tubby is also laughable. I think there are a number of coaches who would have been better than 32-40 through 4 years in the Big Ten. I am not advocating Flip, but it had also been a long time since Steve Lavin had recruited and he has not missed a beat.
 



imthewalrus
Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 355



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No excuses: just the facts...

Total Big Ten winning percentages:

Tubby .444
Monson .393
Haskins .381
Dutcher .444

All in all, it all kind of looks the same. From the 1975/1976 season until the present time, only a few percentage points have seperated the top from the bottom, from "...the good from the bad and the ugly..." The Big Ten is a tough conference to win "big" at very consistantly. Unfortunate circumstances have hindered all these coaches during the past 35 or 36 seasons. Every coach who has been at Minnesota during that time presents a different situation. "...Every picture tells a story, don't it?..."

But, there are no excuses for any of these coaches.

Sometimes it's been frustrating, but it's also been a lot of fun.

Of course, I remember the past fifty plus years of Golden Gopher Hoops. I guess things were a little better the further back you go...

From 1960 through 1968, Johnny Kundla won Big Ten games at a .558 rate (NO scandals or recruiting restrictions or loss of scholarships either! Bill Fitch replaced him for a couple seasons and won Big Ten games at a .464 rate. Then came our year with George Hanson. He won Big Ten games at a .357 rate. Mussleman won at a .633 rate from 1971 through 1975, but he cheated like a mad-man and was the first of the Gopher coaches to leave the Men's Hoops Program in a really bad way with the NCAA.

I guess the best of the bunch is a guy even I don't remember really well until towards the end of his career: Ozzie Cowles. From 1948 though 1959, he won Big Ten games at a .558 clip and he didn't cheat or run a renegade program either.

There you have it: no excuses...just the facts! ; 0 )

*****Thanks to Eric Thrall and his Gopher Hoops site!*****
 

imthewalrus said:
imthewalrus
Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 355

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No excuses: just the facts...

Total Big Ten winning percentages:

Tubby .444
Monson .393
Haskins .381
Dutcher .444

All in all, it all kind of looks the same. From the 1975/1976 season until the present time, only a few percentage points have seperated the top from the bottom, from "...the good from the bad and the ugly..." The Big Ten is a tough conference to win "big" at very consistantly. Unfortunate circumstances have hindered all these coaches during the past 35 or 36 seasons. Every coach who has been at Minnesota during that time presents a different situation. "...Every picture tells a story, don't it?..."

But, there are no excuses for any of these coaches.

Sometimes it's been frustrating, but it's also been a lot of fun.

Of course, I remember the past fifty plus years of Golden Gopher Hoops. I guess things were a little better the further back you go...

From 1960 through 1968, Johnny Kundla won Big Ten games at a .558 rate (NO scandals or recruiting restrictions or loss of scholarships either! Bill Fitch replaced him for a couple seasons and won Big Ten games at a .464 rate. Then came our year with George Hanson. He won Big Ten games at a .357 rate. Mussleman won at a .633 rate from 1971 through 1975, but he cheated like a mad-man and was the first of the Gopher coaches to leave the Men's Hoops Program in a really bad way with the NCAA.

I guess the best of the bunch is a guy even I don't remember really well until towards the end of his career: Ozzie Cowles. From 1948 though 1959, he won Big Ten games at a .558 clip and he didn't cheat or run a renegade program either.

There you have it: no excuses...just the facts! ; 0 )

*****Thanks to Eric Thrall and his Gopher Hoops site!*****
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I think Mr. Kundla is still alive. Perhaps Gophers should hire him back?
 

Clem Haskins was 119-120 in the Big Ten and this is including a 6-30!!! start through his first two years.
 


haskins cheated SO much that he got pretty much what he deserved. He cheated himself right out of a lot of the games he coached. There was and is NO excuse for doing what he did. The U of M Men's Hoops Program got "near death" for at least five seasons for haskin's crimes and sins. This program had best NEVER forget just how much haskins cheated and all the shame that it cast upon the program. IF you cheat the way he cheated you deserve worse than what he got. His Big Ten winning percentage will FOREVER be .381 and it probably doesn't even deserve to be that.
 

imthewalrus said:
haskins cheated SO much that he got pretty much what he deserved. He cheated himself right out of a lot of the games he coached. There was and is NO excuse for doing what he did. The U of M Men's Hoops Program got "near death" for at least five seasons for haskin's crimes and sins. This program had best NEVER forget just how much haskins cheated and all the shame that it cast upon the program. IF you cheat the way he cheated you deserve worse than what he got. His Big Ten winning percentage will FOREVER be .381 and it probably doesn't even deserve to be that.
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Haskins was a good coach at WKU and Minnesota. Yes, he cheated. But he WAS a good coach.
 

hey Doogie...why don't you dig deeper and focus on what might be a problem with the Gopher athletic program vs calling out a coach? Maybe he has had a bad year with some bad luck to go along with it, however, why can Tubby win everyplace else and not in Minnesota? Maybe there is something systematically wrong with the whole program and the environment he is trying to coach under? Why can't they keep kids in school? Look at the problems the football program is having keeping athletes eligible. Why did Devoe J choose to leave? maybe he could not make the greades? Regarding recruits and players, maybe the standards and the implentation of them are not on par with other top notch programs? Also, since teams like Minnesota cannot simply reload 5 star recruits (unless you are OSU or Duke) have you looked at the possibility that maybe Tubby should have been allowed to handle the Royce White incident vs Joel Maturi? Imagine if RW were on the team, the Gophers would have the scorer they disparately need. Have you ever even considered that maybe some of the issues are systematic within the program?

You are supposed to be a journalist and it is time you step up and dig deep for a change.
 

Good news for Michigan Sate and Purdue!

Erasing that loss in their record should improve their seeds in the NCAA's.
 

EG#9 said:
I've got a lot of issues with Doogie's article for it being so short. The Gophers were not Mo Walker and Al Nolen away from reaching a 3rd consecutive tournament. They didn't need Mo Walker to make the tournament. Ricky Kreklow from???? That's right Columbia, Missouri and he ended up at Missouri. Alex Kirk from??? Las Cruces, New Mexico and he ended up at New Mexico. These are terrible examples of "swinging and missing". There are good examples of Tubby failing to land the type of talent we expected him to land, but mentioning these guys weakens his point. The idea that Minnesota can't do better than Tubby is also laughable. I think there are a number of coaches who would have been better than 32-40 through 4 years in the Big Ten. I am not advocating Flip, but it had also been a long time since Steve Lavin had recruited and he has not missed a beat.
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Lavin has how many seniors? 9? They are exceeding expectations, but many had them as an NCAA tournament team.

Didn't need Walker? Just my opinion... it's open for interpretation, but considering the way Iverson played, he would've helped.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Agreed that Doogie was pretty fair here. Also agree that Doogie shouldn't get to pick & choose which wins count and which ones don't. If the Iowa wins don't count, does that mean the Louisville, Wisconsin (multiple), Butler, Michigan State, Purdue (multiple), West Virginia & North Carolina wins -- wins we rarely got under the previous regime, especially away from Williams Arena -- count for more? Bottom line, your record is what your record says it is.

All in all, Doogie hit on some key points and unlike most of the stuff I've read or listened to -- most notably Souhan's venomous garbage (his insistence that Tubby "ran off Joseph") -- Doogie at least acknowledges the possibility that this season was a hiccup. Let's hope that's the case.
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Always love the discussion... that's the idea with those blogs, which admittedly, are different from a newspaper column.

I can hear you on including Iowa to make it 32-40... just feel like they've been the rock-bottom of the conference for a while now... numbers used to hammer home a point.
 


Doogie said:
Always love the discussion... that's the idea with those blogs, which admittedly, are different from a newspaper column.

I can hear you on including Iowa to make it 32-40... just feel like they've been the rock-bottom of the conference for a while now... numbers used to hammer home a point.
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I'm in the minority here, Doogie, but I totally agree with citing that. Iowa has been a HORRIBLE program of late. Not even close to Big Ten or even their own standards. I think playing Iowa has been a cupcake for Tubby and that it is legit to point it out, just as it is legit to point out a cupcake NC schedule.

Doogie did not say the games didn't count, as everybody here wants to claim.
 

Doogie said:
Always love the discussion... that's the idea with those blogs, which admittedly, are different from a newspaper column.

I can hear you on including Iowa to make it 32-40... just feel like they've been the rock-bottom of the conference for a while now... numbers used to hammer home a point.
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GopherJake said:
I'm in the minority here, Doogie, but I totally agree with citing that. Iowa has been a HORRIBLE program of late. Not even close to Big Ten or even their own standards. I think playing Iowa has been a cupcake for Tubby and that it is legit to point it out, just as it is legit to point out a cupcake NC schedule.

Doogie did not say the games didn't count, as everybody here wants to claim.
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I know Iowa has been bad in recent years, but come on. They just beat Purdue, played very competitively and almost beat Wisconsin, OSU, and Michigan this season. It's not like they are completely a JV team.

I can't believe I'm defending anything Iowa related. Proves how off your point is.

WHO HATES IOWA??!! :)
 

The home non-conference schedule was weak, the total non-conference schedule has not been weak. You want to throw out the Iowa games and then not count Butler, Louisville, UNC, and West Va?
 

Could've spelled out, but that's part of my all encompassing point that a) the "U" can't do better and b) the program is in a lot better shape vs. when he took it over.
 

From the Barn said:
The home non-conference schedule was weak, the total non-conference schedule has not been weak. You want to throw out the Iowa games and then not count Butler, Louisville, UNC, and West Va?
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I'm saying that over the past 4 years, Iowa has completely sucked and has been a cupcake on our schedule - the last 1/3 of 2011 excepted - but they still aren't winning much.

I'm saying that over the past 4 years, our NC schedule has sucked and has been one cupcake after the next, save for a few obvious exceptions. Granted, it was a TAD better this year. You cite 4 games in 4 years. Can you cite 4 more?

These are not things that folks here - particularly season ticket holders - have not been saying. They've also been saying that Tubby has had a bad year. Hasn't he??????????
 

Sure, Iowa State, Texas A&M, NDSU the season they were good, any of the ACC Big Ten challenge opponents. We would have played UCLA had Portland not ruined that.
 

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