Doogie: Men of Troy? One vote for Calhoun to be the next Gophers coach

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Has anyone heard UCONN's Randy Edsell's name mentioned at all?? have heard that Twitter is abuzz? thoughts?
 

I have some concerns with Calhoun. Coaching at Air Force, or at a service academy in general, is a different animal than coaching at other schools. Doogie mentions that his teams are "extremely well-conditioned and disciplined". I don't disagree with that statement, but I think it could be more of a function of the typical student-athlete that enrolls at Air Force. I am sure most of them are plenty driven and motivated on their own. Also, Doogie mentions that it's difficult to recruit at Air Force. I am not so sure. It's obviously not right for everybody, but it presents a fairly unique opportunity for the right kid. And to make a very general statement, that kid is probably more driven, smarter and willing to work harder than your average recruit at another D-1 school. Could Calhoun be successful at a "normal" program? How would his Air Force "style" play to your average recruit?

That said, I would still take Calhoun ten times over versus Trestman.
 

Doogie said:
Trying to make that splash, but who's realistic? Sumlin is very realistic... Calhoun is to a degree, but not as much as Sumlin... for sake of this post, let's go with Sumlin... he has proven enough that he knows what he's doing... so you combine him with a functioning defensive mind in Gibbs and a coach in Shaw who still is beloved by many in the state, and really in many states, and you have a decent foundation.
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You keep making the error of hinting that Gordy Shaw was a good recruiter inside the state of MN. That is flat out false. I don't know how many times people need to make this clear to you, but MN under Mason did an absolutely terrible job of recruiting within the state of MN. I can't speak to whether or not Gordy Shaw is "beloved by many in the state", I can say that his apparent adoration simply did not carry over to success on the recruiting trail, specifically in MN. Shaw was one of the best assistants we've had at MN, i'll give him that. However, talking about him being a good recruiter is simply wrong.

I'll just show you a little bit of what i'm talking about....

Lets look at Brews 4 (full) classes (2011-2007). I realize that 2011 isn't done yet and it will be all out of whack because of the coaching change, but the point is relatively simple.

The classes from 2007-2011, when examing the top 5 kids from each class....
MN has landed 10 of the 20. We offered 3 kids who ended up going to Iowa or Wisconsin.
Iowa landed 0 of the 20 top 5 players of each class, and they offered scholorships to 5 kids that ended up signing with the Gophers.
Wisconsin landed 3 of the top 20, and they offered to 7 other kids who ended up signing with MN.

So within the state of MN....The Gophers obviously outrecruited WI and IA. Between these three schools: MN landed 10/13 recruits they offered. IA landed 0/5 recruits they offered. WI landed 3/10 recruits they offered.

Now, lets look at how "the best instate recruiter in the last 20 years" fared in his last 4 seasons

from 2003-2006, examining the top 5 kids from each class....
MN landed 2 out of 20. They also offered 5 other kids who ended up at IA or WI.
Iowa landed 2 out of 20. They didn't offer a single kid who ended up at MN.
WI landed 3 out of 20. They didn't offer a single kid who ended up at MN.

In last 4 full classes (I threw 2007 out), he didn't win a single recruiting battle against Iowa or WI for the best players in MN, not 1.

There are a lot of good things to say about Gordy Shaw's abilities to coach lineman, but when you call someone on Mason's staff the "best in-state recruiter in 20 years" it better be said ironically, because it is flat out false. That staff didn't recruit the state very hard at all and when they did, they never won recruiting battles amongst Iowa or Wisconsin.
 

Why do people talk about Shaw's offenses? He was the OL coach ['01-'06] (which is after he was the DL coach ['97-'00] which was after started as the OL coach ['93-'96]). Get serious.
 

Who ever is named head coach NEEDS...

Gordy Shaw on his staff. The Gophers turned out some All-American players and All-Conference players during the years Gordy was at Minnesota. Bring Shaw in!!!!! Wins over Ohio State, Michigan, Iowa, Wisconsin, Purdue, MSU, PSU, Alabama, Illinois, NU, Arkansas, Oregon, did matter.

The Mason years were the BEST years in a mighty long time. Gordy Shaw had a lot to do with that. Those kids who played during the Mason years all helped get the new stadium built.

Bring Gordy Shaw back NOW!!!!!
 


Bob L: Great research... all I can tell you is that I have talked to dozens of high school coaches since Mason/Shaw left, and not one person has ever said a bad word about Shaw... in fact many unprompted have told me how much they love Shaw... bad words about Mason? Yes, and ultimately, many of those kids went elsewhere because of that. Shaw could only do so much. With Sumlin, he would do a lot better.
 

cjcarter8 said:
Was Tubby realistic before it actually happened?

So hopefully the U's realistic is different than your realistic.
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He wasn't... but could make the case that the pool is not as large with this hire... the Tubby-esque hires would be Richt, Harbaugh, Dungy, Petersen, and Patterson... anyone else? The Utah coach? Tedford? Shannon? Of all those names, Shannon is the only truly realistic one... maybe Patterson, but his buyout is huge.

The next tier, IMO, includes Calhoun, Sumlin, etc.
 

bob loblow: How many All-American and All Big Ten linemen did the brewball years turn out? During the Mason years (Shaw was there for all of those years) there were a LOT of All-American and All Big Ten players.

Could ANY high school coaches in their right minds say anything good about brewster?????

Look at the facts, man. brewball will go down as the most hurting three point five year seasons since Wacker. He could NOT coach.

Bring in Gordy Shaw NOW!
 

imthewalrus said:
bob loblow: How many All-American and All Big Ten linemen did the brewball years turn out? During the Mason years (Shaw was there for all of those years) there were a LOT of All-American and All Big Ten players.

Could ANY high school coaches in their right minds say anything good about brewster?????

Look at the facts, man. brewball will go down as the most hurting three point five year seasons since Wacker. He could NOT coach.

Bring in Gordy Shaw NOW!
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You completely missed my point imthewalrus. I think Shaw was a good coach, i've said that many times in this thread. I think I even said he was one of the best assistant coaches we've had in my memory. However, my entire point is that the guy was not a succesful recruiter. The entire beef I had with Shaw's named being mentioned is that his name was mentioned in context with being "the best in state recruiter we've had in 20 years". That is just not the case.

So here is my take on Shaw....good coach? Absolutely. Good recruiter (specifically in-state)? Obviously not. That isn't to say that I would have huge problems with him on the staff, he just isn't a great recruiter.
 



Doogie said:
Bob L: Great research... all I can tell you is that I have talked to dozens of high school coaches since Mason/Shaw left, and not one person has ever said a bad word about Shaw... in fact many unprompted have told me how much they love Shaw... bad words about Mason? Yes, and ultimately, many of those kids went elsewhere because of that. Shaw could only do so much. With Sumlin, he would do a lot better.
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The idea that he would have been a better recruiter without Mason is just a guess. It's fine, i've heard that Shaw is a likeable guy, that is a completely different animal than being a good recruiter, much less the "best recruiter we've had in 20 seasons".

I actually don't mind the suggestions of Gibbs or Shaw, I just couldn't believe what I was reading when I read about Shaw's recruiting prowess.

The best thing about the Brewster era is that the U rebuilt their relationship with area coaches.
 

Who is the best recruiter in the last 20-years? Please don't tell me Brewster. That would be the opposite of what many coaches have told me.
 

Gordy is a good guards and centers coach but very overrated as a recruiter. He was good at schmoozing the coaches yes, which is why they love him but he wasn't as good as he needed to be in building relationships with the actual kids he was recruiting. He had a great relationship with Coach Derek Fisher at Armstrong but I'm not sure David Gilreath could have picked him out of a lineup. How much good did his relationhip with Fisher do for us when Wisky showed Gilreath the love? Sam Maresh said he didn't have any significant contact with the previous staff, that's a huge indictment of Gordy's recruting efforts right there. He refused to believe Isaac Anderson had a Wisconsin offer even though Isaac's track coach told him he had seen the offer letter personally. So he thought Isaac would just walk on since his dad played here. He liked to brag about recruiting the Barber's, Hamilton, Eslinger, Speath, Setterstrom, but Matt was the only one of those guys with any other real options besides the U. Any coach with a pulse could have recruited Dom Barber to Minnesota, he wasn't ever going anywhere else.

That high school coaches thought Gordy was a good guy isn't the whole story.
 

Doogie said:
Who is the best recruiter in the last 20-years? Please don't tell me Brewster. That would be the opposite of what many coaches have told me.
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I'm not sure. I know that it isn't Gordy Shaw. The Mason staff did a much worse job recruiting the state of MN than the Brewster staff. That's a fact. I think I already pointed that out.

I am not a Brewster apologist, I understand that he was a terrible football coach. However, Brew's staff obviously were better instate recruiters than Mason's staff. I already pointed that out for you. Mason's staff (with Shaw) were lightyears ahead of Brew as far as developing and coaching those players.

So let me ask you this, do you think Gordy Shaw did a better job recruiting instate than anyone on the Brewster staff? I'm not talking about based on what some coaches that you know think of him as a person, i'm talking about his ability to get the best kids in-state to attend the U of MN?

I will tell you this, John Butler was the main guy recruiting Hageman, the Olsons, Jimmy Gjere, and Sam Maresh. Gordy Shaw (under Mason) never had a list of recruits that high profile where he succesfully outrecruited big name programs.
 



Oscar Munson said:
Gordy is a good guards and centers coach but very overrated as a recruiter. He was good at schmoozing the coaches yes, which is why they love him but he wasn't as good as he needed to be in building relationships with the actual kids he was recruiting. He had a great relationship with Coach Derek Fisher at Armstrong but I'm not sure David Gilreath could have picked him out of a lineup. How much good did his relationhip with Fisher do for us when Wisky showed Gilreath the love? Sam Maresh said he didn't have any significant contact with the previous staff, that's a huge indictment of Gordy's recruting efforts right there. He refused to believe Isaac Anderson had a Wisconsin offer even though Isaac's track coach told him he had seen the offer letter personally. So he thought Isaac would just walk on since his dad played here. He liked to brag about recruiting the Barber's, Hamilton, Eslinger, Speath, Setterstrom, but Matt was the only one of those guys with any other real options besides the U. Any coach with a pulse could have recruited Dom Barber to Minnesota, he wasn't ever going anywhere else.

That high school coaches thought Gordy was a good guy isn't the whole story.
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This is the truth. Gordy did a great job finding diamonds in the rough and developing players and he deserves kudos for that. However, he was unsuccesful recruiting local kids. What I mean by that is that Shaw did not win any recruiting battles with Sconny or Iowa amongst the best players in the state (top 5) in his last 4 seasons. He couldn't recruit, it's just not where he excels.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
You completely missed my point imthewalrus. I think Shaw was a good coach, i've said that many times in this thread. I think I even said he was one of the best assistant coaches we've had in my memory. However, my entire point is that the guy was not a succesful recruiter. The entire beef I had with Shaw's named being mentioned is that his name was mentioned in context with being "the best in state recruiter we've had in 20 years". That is just not the case.

So here is my take on Shaw....good coach? Absolutely. Good recruiter (specifically in-state)? Obviously not. That isn't to say that I would have huge problems with him on the staff, he just isn't a great recruiter.
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I agree that Shaw (with Mason) turned out some good linemen. I not a recruitnik, but one thing Brewster did accomplish is repairing a lot of the relationships between the U and the HS coaches, which were a disaster during the Mason era. So I have a hard time believing that Shaw is some sort of Minnesotan recruiting machine.

One thing that's gotten lost in this thread. Look up the term "burning bridges" in the dictionary, and you'll see a picture of Gordy. He had some assinine interviews after he got S-canned. Now it might have been the Jack Daniels talking, but he came across as a bitter tool. People who do the hiring tend to remember things like that. I would guess Maturi would veto a Shaw hire. And I would hope that whomever we bring in as coach is aiming north of Shaw (or Gibbs) for their coordinators.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
You completely missed my point imthewalrus. I think Shaw was a good coach, i've said that many times in this thread. I think I even said he was one of the best assistant coaches we've had in my memory. However, my entire point is that the guy was not a succesful recruiter. The entire beef I had with Shaw's named being mentioned is that his name was mentioned in context with being "the best in state recruiter we've had in 20 years". That is just not the case.

So here is my take on Shaw....good coach? Absolutely. Good recruiter (specifically in-state)? Obviously not. That isn't to say that I would have huge problems with him on the staff, he just isn't a great recruiter.
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He misses the point on a lot of things Bob.
 

Too Long in the Wasteland said:
I agree that Shaw (with Mason) turned out some good linemen. I not a recruitnik, but one thing Brewster did accomplish is repairing a lot of the relationships between the U and the HS coaches, which were a disaster during the Mason era. So I have a hard time believing that Shaw is some sort of Minnesotan recruiting machine.

One thing that's gotten lost in this thread. Look up the term "burning bridges" in the dictionary, and you'll see a picture of Gordy. He had some assinine interviews after he got S-canned. Now it might have been the Jack Daniels talking, but he came across as a bitter tool. People who do the hiring tend to remember things like that. I would guess Maturi would veto a Shaw hire. And I would hope that whomever we bring in as coach is aiming north of Shaw (or Gibbs) for their coordinators.
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It's a good point to raise... but would Maturi veto Sumlin hiring Shaw? If it was the difference between getting Sumlin and not getting Sumlin, my guess is that Maturi would allow Sumlin to hire whoever he wanted.

Also, solid take on Shaw building relationships... but bottom-line for me: he's well-respected by many HS coaches locally, and that counts for something.
 

I don't buy what you are trying to sell. I love to have diamonds in the rough who turn into All-American players and All Big Ten players. Of course, it takes COACHES and people who can COACH for them to do that.

What you need to get out of Minnesota and Wisconsin and the Dakotas is linemen and some linebackers. IF you have got a good line, you can turn some qb's and wide receivers and tight ends and some running backs into players. Get the coaching on the defensive side and the ability to pick up some of those diamonds in the rough...coach them UP and put them in a good scheme, along with an offense that can control the ball, you have got a Big Ten competetive team.

Brewster just showed you what some "name recruits" will do. How many of those kids you counted there did anything for the Gophers during the last couple of years? They have got to come to campus and PRODUCE on the football field...not just read their fantasy football recruiting reviews and projections. Their four star fantasy rating doesn't help them if there is no one to coach them. Some of them peaked out in their jr or sr year of high school. Some of them aren't coachable. Some of them can't cut it with the grades. Some of them are troubled kids. Some of them might make it some day.

Get Gordy Shaw back on staff. We need some COACHES!
 

I vote to veto Maturi. Look at the horrible job that fool has done. And, if you are expecting much from prexy b, you might have a mighty long wait. Prexy b was pretty much in lala land in his interview with Mike Schmidt. I got the impression his idea of a big time hire is not quite the same as some of the names I have been seeing people throw out on this board. Remember this above all else that prexy b says: he is AGAINST the football coaching "arms race..."

And he also believes that it would be dangerous to replace the ad during the next few years. He thinks wisky did it kind of right...BUT, maturi is NO Pat Richter. Richter was FOOTBALL and all football when he took over as ad at wisky. He GOT it. macturi does NOT "get it..." He never has and he never will.
 

imthewalrus said:
I don't buy what you are trying to sell. I love to have diamonds in the rough who turn into All-American players and All Big Ten players. Of course, it takes COACHES and people who can COACH for them to do that.

What you need to get out of Minnesota and Wisconsin and the Dakotas is linemen and some linebackers. IF you have got a good line, you can turn some qb's and wide receivers and tight ends and some running backs into players. Get the coaching on the defensive side and the ability to pick up some of those diamonds in the rough...coach them UP and put them in a good scheme, along with an offense that can control the ball, you have got a Big Ten competetive team.

Brewster just showed you what some "name recruits" will do. How many of those kids you counted there did anything for the Gophers during the last couple of years? They have got to come to campus and PRODUCE on the football field...not just read their fantasy football recruiting reviews and projections. Their four star fantasy rating doesn't help them if there is no one to coach them. Some of them peaked out in their jr or sr year of high school. Some of them aren't coachable. Some of them can't cut it with the grades. Some of them are troubled kids. Some of them might make it some day.

Get Gordy Shaw back on staff. We need some COACHES!
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He did a fantastic job with the diamonds in the rough, but that has very little to do with recruiting. A lot of those guys were local kids who didn't have offers from other schools. There was really not a recruiting battle going on with those kids. These kids were coming to the U regardless. I am not diminishing the value of what Shaw did, it just wasn't recruiting. In fact, if he were a better recruiter, just imagine how good those teams could have been. Imagine if those teams could have contained 1/2 from this list (T. Laws, J. Carlson, R. Harris, N. Swift, L. Mutha, Laurinitas, Eubanks) to go along with the diamonds in the rough he was able to develop. (I used 50% because that is the rate of top instate players Brew's staff landed). Those teams could have been really special.

If this thread were about Shaw's ability to find and develop players who aren't very well recruited, I would be defending him. However, it is about his ability to recruit kids from MN, and he failed in that role here.

Now again, because I really think you are going to keep going down the road saying that i'm saying recruiting is everything. There are two facets of developing players. First, you need to recruit the best players you can find (based on talent, fit, attitude, etc.). Second, you need to work with the players you get and make them as good as possible.

The former, he failed. The latter, he succeeded.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
He did a fantastic job with the diamonds in the rough, but that has very little to do with recruiting. A lot of those guys were local kids who didn't have offers from other schools. There was really not a recruiting battle going on with those kids. These kids were coming to the U regardless. I am not diminishing the value of what Shaw did, it just wasn't recruiting. In fact, if he were a better recruiter, just imagine how good those teams could have been. Imagine if those teams could have contained 1/2 from this list (T. Laws, J. Carlson, R. Harris, N. Swift, L. Mutha, Laurinitas, Eubanks) to go along with the diamonds in the rough he was able to develop. (I used 50% because that is the rate of top instate players Brew's staff landed). Those teams could have been really special.

If this thread were about Shaw's ability to find and develop players who aren't very well recruited, I would be defending him. However, it is about his ability to recruit kids from MN, and he failed in that role here.

Now again, because I really think you are going to keep going down the road saying that i'm saying recruiting is everything. There are two facets of developing players. First, you need to recruit the best players you can find (based on talent, fit, attitude, etc.). Second, you need to work with the players you get and make them as good as possible.

The former, he failed. The latter, he succeeded.
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Fantastic job? Developing unheralded recruits into solid players, yes. Turning out teams that could get a yard or two when absolutely, positively needed? Why so many unheralded recruits? I thought he was a great recruiter? Not so much.

NO.

Individual statistics and individual awards are nice. For the individuals, and to an extent the school.


TEAM wins, BCS Bowl wins are the name of the game.
 

imthewalrus said:
Look at the facts, man. brewball will go down as the most hurting three point five year seasons since Wacker.
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Wow! Really going out on a limb there! Brew is the worst coach since our last horrible coach! In the late 90's!!! Talk about historical context!
 

http://notredame.rivals.com/cdepthtext.asp?Year=2007&Team=AIRFORCE

Air Force plays a 3-4, so Coach C has my vote if he is going to bring his D/C coordinator with him.

DE: Wilhite/Mcgee/garin
DE: Kirksy/Jacobs/Hahn
DT: Edwards/Hagemann/Hahn
LB: Cooper
LB: Beal
LB: Tinsley
LB: Rallis
(backups Reeves, Hill, Grant, etc ... maybe even stand up Garin?)

CB: Stoud/ Carter
CB: Henderson/ Breen
S: Lewis/Watkins
S: Manual/Watikins
 

I think one of Doogie's largest problems is that he always cites people he talks to as credible sources. Obviously, it's good for reporters to talk to people connected to a topic they are writing about. But Doogie usually stops there. He doesn't take the time to analyze which recruits a certain coach actually brought in, missed out on, etc. He talks to a few people, if couple say the same thing he reports that as fact.

Not exactly research.
 

AhliBobwa said:
I think one of Doogie's largest problems is that he always cites people he talks to as credible sources. Obviously, it's good for reporters to talk to people connected to a topic they are writing about. But Doogie usually stops there. He doesn't take the time to analyze which recruits a certain coach actually brought in, missed out on, etc. He talks to a few people, if couple say the same thing he reports that as fact.

Not exactly research.
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I happen to think one of Doogie's largest problems (outside of a grown man calling himself Doogie) is the seemingly lack of a thick skin. For every one post he has on here with what he deems valid information, he spends another 5 trying to defend himself. I've never understood that. It's an internet chat board, largely filled with juvenile delinquents, people with an agenda, et al. Why does Doogie feel the need to defend himself when somebody of that ilk criticizes his stance?

You'll begin to lead a much less stressful life when you stop caring what anonymous folk on the internet think about you. Don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the effort he seems to be putting forth when it comes to coverage of the Gophers. It's definitely a step in the right direction and I'd love to see it continue. I would just spend less time responding to those who want to criticize him or take shots at him. Just my two cents....
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
I happen to think one of Doogie's largest problems (outside of a grown man calling himself Doogie) is the seemingly lack of a thick skin. For every one post he has on here with what he deems valid information, he spends another 5 trying to defend himself. I've never understood that. It's an internet chat board, largely filled with juvenile delinquents, people with an agenda, et al. Why does Doogie feel the need to defend himself when somebody of that ilk criticizes his stance?

You'll begin to lead a much less stressful life when you stop caring what anonymous folk on the internet think about you. Don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the effort he seems to be putting forth when it comes to coverage of the Gophers. It's definitely a step in the right direction and I'd love to see it continue. I would just spend less time responding to those who want to criticize him or take shots at him. Just my two cents....
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Ogee: I am able to live a comfortable life with a beautiful wife, and a child on the way... while stress will be on the way because of said child, I am as close to stress-free as possible right now... I love a healthy back-and-forth on here... it's the definition of a message board, except that I attach my name... trust me: I sleep just fine at night even with many on here going at me on a regular basis...
It's human nature -- when upset or disagree, people go out of their way to object.
 

I don't think Doogie has thin skin at all. His points often get hammered on here and he shows takes it and hammers back. If he had thin skin, why would he come on this site at all?

When Doogie says something that I think is insane (Gordy Shaw stuff), I tell him, he argues back his point and it's just like any other person on the message board. I don't really take it as think skin anymore than it is thin skin when someone else argues their point on here. It's a message board.

You have to remember, and i'm sure Doogie could tell you this, the average fan isn't like us. The majority of people in MN (even the ones who consider themself to be Gopher fans) could read a line like "Gordy Shaw is the best recruiters in the last 20 years", and just think to themself, "well it could be a good idea if this Calhoun guy can get that Shaw guy back in MN". I'm not ripping on it, but I don't know if there are a ton of people outside of Gopherhole who could break down the instate recruiting aptitude of former assistant coaches at the U. So the fact that Doogie comes here and gets slammed for that statement (by myself included) isn't something that he would really need to defend to the general population. So here comes here and debates like anyone else.
 

Bob: exactly why I love this board... my dad reads the name Gordy Shaw and it does nothing for him, but he casually follows the Gophers... on here, with the die-hards, I can debate the good and bad of Shaw, etc.
 

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