Does Tubby's firing mean anything for football?

[Killjoy]

To the second point first. Of course NT wants Kill to succeed and he will do what he can to support him and he won't get rid of him just to get rid of him. But at the same time his legacy is not tied to Kill being successful because he didn't hire him so if he feels that the program is not progressing the way he wants it to he won't hesitate to make the move in the exact same manner as what happened in basketball. I am sure he has minimum thresholds he needs to see the program achieve over the next few years (note I am not trying to imply in any way shape or form that NT would even consider firing Kill right now) and as long as Kill is meeting those he will be fine. My whole point is I don't think he will hesitate to pull the trigger after 2014 if the program isn't where he believes it should be under Kill's leadership.

As to the first point. Kill is light years ahead of Brew from a staff stability/unified message point. On the field though this is a team that has won 2 conference games the last two years and looked non-competitive in a lot of Big Ten Games. After the debacle of 2007 when Brew clearly had no clue what he was doing the team managed to win 3 Big Ten games in each of the next two seasons. So yeah I see what Kill is trying to do but from a results standpoint (and in the end that is all that truly matters) the program is not in a significantly better place then it was under Brewster.

I don't believe for a second NT will do anything in the next two years baring some major outside factor but I also don't think he will sit on the sidelines and let Kill play out all 7 years of his deal if the results are not there. The bottom line is NT wants Kill to succeed but if he doesn't he won't hesitate to pull the trigger and bring in the next guy to take a run at it.

Thanks for the clarification. I started to have trouble with your original comments when it appeared to me that you were saying that there was very little difference between Kill and Brewster at this point.

 

[imthewalrus]

Why does Kill need a raise just because we may hire a new and more expensive basketball coach. Kill hasn't won anything yet and add in his health issues and he has zero leverage to expect more money. There are not better paying jobs knocking on his door, if that time comes then pay him more then. He already in essence got his raise by paying 800K for him to chicken out of a game so he can virtually assure himself of making a no name bowl game. He gets 100K for making any bowl game.

In MOST places, the football coach is the highest paid coach in the athletic department. It stands to reason, then that the coordinators are more highly paid when the coach is more highly paid. However, the entire pay structure of the revenue sports at the U of M drastically changed when the Athletic Department became totally unhinged first during the Haskin's cheating scandal and finally with the Mason/Monson buy outs...firings...the low-ball hiring of the totally inexperienced Brewster and the introduction of the new...super-star-status two million plus a year Tubby Smith. Suddenly, the pay structure turned from a pretty well-balanced pay structure situation with pretty good balance in the Football, Men's Basketball, Men's Hockey coaches. Suddenly, at the time Minnesota was building the new stadium, the Men's Hoops coach was paid well over twice as much as the football coach.

Do you realize the message THAT sent out to any and all perspective football coach replacement candidates when the previous administration was FORCED to buy out Brewster in mid-season and went about trying to hire a replacement football coach? Sure...there was a new stadium, but, the lack of commitment to winning in the football program became painfully apparent as evidenced by the fact that the Men's Basketball Coach was being paid more than twice as much per season as the football coach.

The pay for the football coach has SUCH obvious impact on whether a potential coach believes the athletic department is SERIOUS about wanting to win...to make a commitment to providing support for the coach...ESPECALLY for the STAFF of the coach. It was obvious that there was NO commitment to Brewster and his staff (rightly so in brewsters case...he had NO experience. But it was painfully obvious that the administration thought ALL they had to do was build a stadium and everyone would be appeased and not even notice the inexperienced coach...if he grew into the job...fine...IF he didn't he could be bought out cheaply and replaced.

But, the obvious message to any and every perspective coach was that Minnesota values Men's Hoops MUCH more than the football program.
What an insult to the football program...

I'm not saying that Coach Kill's salary needs to be raised by a million and a half a season...but...either the hoops coach salary needs to be lowered while the football coaching salary is raised OR the football coaching salary must be raised to at least the equal of the hoops coaching salary.

All anyone has to do is to look up the ratio of the football coaching salary to the Men's Basketball coaching salary to realize where the priorities of the actng AD/administration supported and where there is less support. The dollar amounts ALWAYS tell pretty much all information anyone needs to know about the priorities.

Right now, Minnesota has basketball coaching on a much higher priority level than football coaching.

And, with an ad who fancies himself to be a basketball guy...things are probably poised to push the men's hoops coaching priority way past the 2.5 to 1 ratio. I would guess that when the dust finally settles, the new norwood priority ratio would probably favor men's hoop by a 3 to 1 ratio up to a 3.5 to1 ratio.

THAT is a real problem for the future of the Football Program...

; 0 )

 

[GopherGod]

So because Kill is a lower paid coach, then the next coach won't consider Minnesota because of that? You know how you fix that, when the job opens up again, you tell the guy you really want, we only paid Kill 1 million but we will offer you X more. The coach only cares what salary he is offered as well as facilities, etc., not how little his predecessor made. I am all for paying coaches once they earn it, but not just because the guy next door makes more. Kill has zero chance of going somewhere else right now for a better opportunity, so why pay more?

 

[imthewalrus]

​

So because Kill is a lower paid coach, then the next coach won't consider Minnesota because of that? You know how you fix that, when the job opens up again, you tell the guy you really want, we only paid Kill 1 million but we will offer you X more. The coach only cares what salary he is offered as well as facilities, etc., not how little his predecessor made. I am all for paying coaches once they earn it, but not just because the guy next door makes more. Kill has zero chance of going somewhere else right now for a better opportunity, so why pay more?

You mean that you don't recall the last football coaching search process when our ad brought pr man Dave Mona along to try to hire a football coach.

I do recall Coach Kill joking that he was our new football coach because no one else would take the job. There was entirely too much truth to that statement when you recall how the process went. In the end, Coach Kill was a fine hire. However, it did appear for a while that the job might go unfilled or would have to be offered to an assistant coach with no head coaching experience.

Your commitment to the program is demonstrated by trailing indicators. You need to go back to see how well the program has been supported in the past to be able to project just how well it may be supported in the future. Also, recall that the Gopher Football AND hoops jobs have been pretty much "graveyard" jobs for coaches who have accepted the challenge and have eventually been bought out and fired.

IF you think all a coach looks at is the amount of $$$$$ being offered for a current coaching position opened up by a buy out and firing...you are pretty mistaken, I fear. What the institution has done in the past is the BEST indicator of what they will do in the future. For a coach, just the history of the buy outs and firings is enough to say: "..this job looks like a lot of trouble with very little support and IF things bog down...it could be the END OF THE LINE for which ever coach takes it..."

ANY school that offers twice as much or more for a replacement hoops coach as they pay the football coach does NOT value the football program very highly. There is NO other way to interpret that message.

But, I have said what I believe has needed to be said about this. I've issued a warning to our new norwood about the kettle of fish this situation presents to our football program going into the future. Our new norwood will have to do what our new norwood wants to do. I fear it kind of sells our football program down the river...maybe I'm wrong...but...I fear very much I am kind of right smack dab "...on the money..." with my 2 to one/ three to 1 theory... "

And so it goes...

; 0 (

 

[MNVCGUY]

​

You mean that you don't recall the last football coaching search process when our ad brought pr man Dave Mona along to try to hire a football coach.

I do recall Coach Kill joking that he was our new football coach because no one else would take the job. There was entirely too much truth to that statement when you recall how the process went. In the end, Coach Kill was a fine hire. However, it did appear for a while that the job might go unfilled or would have to be offered to an assistant coach with no head coaching experience.

Your commitment to the program is demonstrated by trailing indicators. You need to go back to see how well the program has been supported in the past to be able to project just how well it may be supported in the future. Also, recall that the Gopher Football AND hoops jobs have been pretty much "graveyard" jobs for coaches who have accepted the challenge and have eventually been bought out and fired.

IF you think all a coach looks at is the amount of $$$$$ being offered for a current coaching position opened up by a buy out and firing...you are pretty mistaken, I fear. What the institution has done in the past is the BEST indicator of what they will do in the future. For a coach, just the history of the buy outs and firings is enough to say: "..this job looks like a lot of trouble with very little support and IF things bog down...it could be the END OF THE LINE for which ever coach takes it..."

ANY school that offers twice as much or more for a replacement hoops coach as they pay the football coach does NOT value the football program very highly. There is NO other way to interpret that message.

But, I have said what I believe has needed to be said about this. I've issued a warning to our new norwood about the kettle of fish this situation presents to our football program going into the future. Our new norwood will have to do what our new norwood wants to do. I fear it kind of sells our football program down the river...maybe I'm wrong...but...I fear very much I am kind of right smack dab "...on the money..." with my 2 to one/ three to 1 theory... "

And so it goes...

; 0 (

Of course your flaw in all this is that everything you are talking about happened under a totally different administration than the one currently in charge. You have no clue what they are going to end up spending on the new basketball coach or how they will approach things when the time comes to hire a new football coach.

What they pay the new basketball coach will tell us a lot about what to expect when the time comes to hire a new football coach. If they go big in terms of salary it will tell me these guys will go big when they have to replace Kill as well. In the meantime though there is no reason to change the contract that is already in place on the football coach you inherited until he proves he is worth significantly more money. So yeah things might be a little out of whack right now but it is foolish to assume that NT and his staff won't work to change that when the time comes to bring in a new football coach.

 

[Great Plains Gopher]

I think that you are identifying what is going to become a HUGE problem for the revenue sports at the U. Your key words: THE AMOUNT OF MONEY signify what is becoming the crux of my main concern as a Golden Gopher Football Fan first and foremost. How the heck can an administration throw out nearly 300 million on a football stadium and then move towards spending THREE TIMES as much money...or more on the coaching staff of a basketball program that has always been at the heart of the problems created within the athletic department going all the way back to the 1970s?

The University used up a LOT of fund-raising good will into the future to find a way to get TCF BANK STADIUM built. They then opened that beautiful stadium with a football program headed up by tim brewster?????????? All the while, they were spending at least 2.5 times as much for their Men's Hoops Coach...Tubby Smith.

The former ad was NOT a football guy. Our new norwood is NOT a football guy. The "arms-race..." just within the U of M's own Athletic Department is really out of line...out of whack...and bodes very poorly for the future of the Football Program.

Jerry Kill has been put in a horrible position because of this preference for Men's Basketball by the former ad and now our new norwood.

Just in this very thread, posters are making statements about Kill having maybe two more years to start winning at least 50% of his conference games or our "...rough, tough, mean and nasty..." new norwood will NOT be afraid to buy out his CHEAP (in comparison to how much the men's hoops coach is paid) contract. A "million-dollar-man" is MUCH cheaper to buy out than a "...3 million PLUS dollar-man..."

I don't like it one bit. And, I fear that the state legislators are going to come down VERY hard on the amount of money being spent on coaches at the U of M. Well...it is MOSTLY the Men's Hoops Program that is creating our problems all over again. Pay Tubby more than 3 million to go away. Pay Tubby's staff off. Then, get in a bidding war and pay somewhere between 3 and 4 million a year for the "hot-shot of the 2013 season coach..." suffer from "buy out/new hire inflation..." for the cost of the new hoops coaching staff. Believe me, you are going to attract the complete attention of the legislators and our somewhat new prexy k is going to have a VERY hard time going to our elected officials with his hand out telling them he needs a lot more money than they are offering for the educational mission of the U of M.

And, all this while, the hoops coach and his staff MAY or may NOT increase attendance for home games.

I've invested (for me and my family) a lot of time, money buying tickets all these years and contributing to scholarships, etc and have a lot of loyalty to Golden Gopher Football. I am very concerned that the administration at the U of M appears to have felt they could just throw a new stadium out there and then haphazardly bring in brewster on the cheap, with NO experience to open the new stadium. THAT insured that their plan was...and still is to spend a LOT more money for a coach for the hoops program than the Football Program.

I really feel for Coach Kill and his staff. THEY will get as much or MORE heat to produce than this new high priced hoops coach. Our new norwood fancies himself to be a basketball guy.

Message to our new norwood: I fancy myself to be a LONG-TIME season ticket holding Football Fan. I see the way you are stacking the deck against the football program here. I also have seen the problems the hoops program has caused over many decades of time here at the University of Minnesota.

Give Jerry Kill and his staff half a chance. For the sake of the FUTURE of the Football Program: you can NOT pay your hoops coach THREE times as much as you pay your Football Coach. This is an impossible situation. You have GOT to take a look at what you are doing. The hoops program has always had a history of trouble.

Our new norwood needs to get his act together over there. Our new norwood can NOT afford to fancy himself as a hoops guy. He NEEDS to learn to be a BALANCED Revenue Sport guy. He HAS to pay his football coach at least as much as his hoops coach. At iowa, Ferentz gets 3 million PLUS. Our new norweed NEEDS to get hot on making the compensation problems between hoops and football go away.

I can NOT sing the praises of the administration at the U of M until they WAKE-UP... To our new norwood: it's FOOTBALL stupid...get the salary schedules for the football coach at least in line with the salary schedules for the hoops coach. At LEAST work towards balance. This will be a problem for Football at the U as LONG as the 3 to 1 ratio of pay favoring the hoops coach over the football coach exists...This is a REAL problem.

; 0 (

If they pay the basketball coach three times what they pay the football coach, that does send a message.

 

[howieramone]

He gets that Kill has only been here two years and while he (NT) is probably frustrated with where the program is at he needs to give the guy he inherited some time to try and make things work. Basketball was a different story as the coach had been here 6 years and NT felt he was justified in making a change now. This solidifies the thought process I have had all along that Kill has 4 years to show significant signs of progress (.500 in the conference...etc). If he is still struggling to win more than 2 Big Ten games after year 4 we will be talking about the new football coach who is coming to town.

No he's happy with the progress of the program just like we are.

 

[Sparlimb]

so true, the shot across Kill's bow has been fired. get it done or hit the bricks.

That's my take away. Maturi and his regime of mediocrity is over. Teague will expect you to succeed or leave. I heard Teague has moved on to seeing if Brad Frost could have done more this year with his team...

 

[Redbird]

Norwood is proving to be a bold, gutsy AD. This will be a good thing for the revenue producing sports. Hoping he can lure the Butler BB coach here, and I believe he is very comfortable with coach Kill and the progress being made in football. In basketball a couple of good recruiting years will turn a program 180 degrees. Football takes longer for obvious reasons. Kill reminds me of Bo Ryan, a coach who has been successful at lower levels who knows how to win. Given Kill's track record the only question I ever had about him was whether he could recruit enough of the type of athletes he needed to win. In the short time he has been here he has shown he will be a successful recruiter. Expect big things including New Years day bowl appearances, perhaps even this upcoming season.

 

[MNVCGUY]

No he's happy with the progress of the program just like we are.

Clearly non of us knows exactly how he feels about the program. He can't be happy though about 2-6 Big Ten records and empty seats at TCF Bank Stadium. He will give Kill more time but my point in this is that he will make a change if the results don't follow. There are positive signs within the program to be sure but until those signs translate to wins Kill's long term future will be in jeopardy.

Don't get me wrong best case scenario in all of this is Kill succeeds and is here for the long haul I just don't think he will have a long leash with NT and I will stick to 2014 as the make or break year for Kill to have a very good season (still not championship but much better than 2-6)

 

[Bo Darville]

Every coach gets five years they should earn the right to see what their team looks like with a roster full of their recruits. After that you can go from there.

Remember Brewster's 5th year? Oh, what a year that was.

 

[Killjoy]

Remember Brewster's 5th year? Oh, what a year that was.

What you are forgetting is that Brewster wasn't a real head coach. He was here on a internship to learn how to become a head coach. Most internships are usually for much shorter periods than three years unless your name is Ross and you worked for the Tonight Show.

 

[SMU GOPHS FAN]

I think it means the football team is being overshadowed once again in this town.

 

[Catechol]

What you are forgetting is that Brewster wasn't a real head coach. He was here on a internship to learn how to become a head coach. Most internships are usually for much shorter periods than three years unless your name is Ross and you worked for the Tonight Show.

So you're saying you give a new head coach less time to show results (3.5 years, while not funding coordinator salaries enough to keep them around) than an established head coach who brings his whole staff that have been with him for 2 previous successful program transitions?

Most here are saying a similar record this year would be meeting expectations. That would be the same as Brewster's 3rd year record, though that schedule was tougher at least in the OOC slate(Syracuse, Cal, Air Force) and probably in conference too (OSU, PSU, Iowa and Wisky all 10+ wins that year). Looking at this year's schedule with San Jose St. being far and away the toughest OOC opponent, and several B1G opponents looking to be weaker than traditionally (Iowa, PSU, MSU) I think 6 wins would be a huge cause for concern, 7 would be the floor and 8 would be the expectation.

 

[go4rube]

I think, at a level, Tubby was the basketball answer to Mason.

If true, I don't want to see the basketball equivalent of Brewster.

I do agree with your assessment though. It takes more time to build a successful football team/program, than a successful basketball team/program, based on sheer numbers among other factors. I want to give Kill his fair time, but we do need to see some decent results on the field this year.

 

[Killjoy]

So you're saying you give a new head coach less time to show results (3.5 years, while not funding coordinator salaries enough to keep them around) than an established head coach who brings his whole staff that have been with him for 2 previous successful program transitions?

Most here are saying a similar record this year would be meeting expectations. That would be the same as Brewster's 3rd year record, though that schedule was tougher at least in the OOC slate(Syracuse, Cal, Air Force) and probably in conference too (OSU, PSU, Iowa and Wisky all 10+ wins that year). Looking at this year's schedule with San Jose St. being far and away the toughest OOC opponent, and several B1G opponents looking to be weaker than traditionally (Iowa, PSU, MSU) I think 6 wins would be a huge cause for concern, 7 would be the floor and 8 would be the expectation.

LOL - You really missed the whole point of my posting. Brewster should never have been hired because he had no head coaching experience nor even any coordinator experience. The University of Minnesota's head coaching position should never have been allowed to be used as an on the job training position for Brewster. When it became painfully obvious that he was in way over his head the only merciful thing to do was to end this insane experiment for everybody's sake. It wasn't Brewster's fault that Maturi hired somebody who was totally unprepared for the position. I would call it a mercy killing.

So obviously the answer to our question is an absolute and resounding yes!.