Does Tubby's firing mean anything for football?

[Great Plains Gopher]

I think maybe the days of Minnesota nice may be over. Coaches must produce...

 

[Go4Broke]

If Kill isn't winning 50% of the Gopher's Big 10 games within the next two years we need to run his ass out of town on a rail and send his entire coaching staff with him.

 

[TrapperDoo]

This will be an interesting thread. In my mind:
1) I was surpassed he got the hook - I thought he would get one more year
2) These guys get paid ALOT of money to win. Things will be alright in the Smith household - the Christmas and birthday presents will still be awesome.
3) (on subject) Yes, it does suggest that the AD and the U are committed to winning - Football, Basketball, everything.
4) (on subject) The U is going to need to up the investments and not just change coaches every few years, to have the success we all want. If the Tubby firing is followed up by some serious commitment to facilities, etc. we know that football will also get more priority.

 

[Killjoy]

If Kill isn't winning 50% of the Gopher's Big 10 games within the next two years we need to run his ass out of town on a rail and send his entire coaching staff with him.

You and Reusse are cut from the same cloth. The two of you are both negative and are constantly whining. Also neither of you seem to be capable or willing to appreciate what Kill has accomplished so far here already and how he is laying the ground work for the future. Now why don't you go outside and chase some kids off your sidewalk. I am sure it will make you will feel better.

 

[Parski1]

What it means is if Kill does not keep producing Bowl games in the next couple of years the Twin Cities media will eat him up like a bunch of Piranha's. Because that's how they roll here.

 

[Ski U Master]

You and Reusse are cut from the same cloth. The two of you are both negative and are constantly whining. Also neither of you seem to be capable or willing to appreciate what Kill has accomplished so far here already and how he is laying the ground work for the future. Now why don't you go outside and chase some kids off your sidewalk. I am sure it will make you will feel better.

At some point you can't judge success based on subjective metrics. Wins matter and after 4 recruiting classes the groundwork should be done and it's time to start producing real results. I think within 2 seasons (Kill's 3rd and 4th) like stated above is a little short, but I don't think expecting a .500 conference season in Kill's 5th year is unfair. If this University is going to become better at major athletics we as fans can't be comfortable with feeling like the program is going "in the right direction" every year while being satisfied with going to minor bowl games build on non-conference wins.

 

[pk2]

At some point you can't judge success based on subjective metrics. Wins matter and after 4 recruiting classes the groundwork should be done and it's time to start producing real results. I think within 2 seasons (Kill's 3rd and 4th) like stated above is a little short, but I don't think expecting a .500 conference season in Kill's 5th year is unfair. If this University is going to become better at major athletics we as fans can't be comfortable with feeling like the program is going "in the right direction" every year while being satisfied with going to minor bowl games build on non-conference wins.

Just to clarify: Are you saying that Coach Kill has had four recruiting classes with the Gophers?

 

[MRJ]

You and Reusse are cut from the same cloth. The two of you are both negative and are constantly whining. Also neither of you seem to be capable or willing to appreciate what Kill has accomplished so far here already and how he is laying the ground work for the future. Now why don't you go outside and chase some kids off your sidewalk. I am sure it will make you will feel better.

There is one notable difference: Go4broke is mad at Kill for one reason and we all know what that is. As such, anything that he/she says should be taken with a bag of salt. Reusse has proven himself to have one shtick and goes to it virtually every time he talks Gopher sports. Nothing new, nothing insightful. Just more of the same stuff spewed everywhere.

 

[mplsbadger]

Here is what I think you can read into it for football:

- the AD has no special allegiance to the coaches he's inherited just as JK had no special allegiances to the players he inherited
- this AD is not going to use a search firm. To me that has to be either hubris, or he's well connected and more competent than the last guy. Although it could be that he knows basketball only and not football given his pedigree
- he's gonna be able to raise money. He wouldn't do this if he couldn't fund the buyout and make promises about facilities to the next guy
- he cares about the revenue sports.

 

[EG#9]

Two theories I've kicked around in my head and seem to fit this thread.

1. Teague was surprised at how hard Kill worked compared to Tubby- Teague has went out of his way several times to praise Kill for his work ethic. I think it's possible this contrast to Tubby (at this point in Tubby's career) was part of the impetus for a coaching change.

2. Teague wants to fix basketball first- He has no real loyalty to Kill, but he's fine with a cheap football coach who's popular with a segment of the fan base while he get his bread and butter sport going. Until the basketball program is in a good place, Kill is safe barring a disaster of a season.

 

[bemidjigopher]

Every coach gets five years they should earn the right to see what their team looks like with a roster full of their recruits. After that you can go from there.

 

[go4rob]

For a change, mediocrity was NOT rewarded...also of note: no search firm and no search committee! *whew* what a breath of fresh air. Under the prior AD we'd have taken 6 weeks just to get our act together.

 

[Bayfieldgopher]

I think maybe the days of Minnesota nice may be over. Coaches must produce...

Maturi=Minnesota nice. Thank goodness, those days are over.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Here is what I think you can read into it for football:

- the AD has no special allegiance to the coaches he's inherited just as JK had no special allegiances to the players he inherited
- this AD is not going to use a search firm. To me that has to be either hubris, or he's well connected and more competent than the last guy. Although it could be that he knows basketball only and not football given his pedigree
- he's gonna be able to raise money. He wouldn't do this if he couldn't fund the buyout and make promises about facilities to the next guy
- he cares about the revenue sports.

Right on the money with that one.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Two theories I've kicked around in my head and seem to fit this thread.

1. Teague was surprised at how hard Kill worked compared to Tubby- Teague has went out of his way several times to praise Kill for his work ethic. I think it's possible this contrast to Tubby (at this point in Tubby's career) was part of the impetus for a coaching change.

2. Teague wants to fix basketball first- He has no real loyalty to Kill, but he's fine with a cheap football coach who's popular with a segment of the fan base while he get his bread and butter sport going. Until the basketball program is in a good place, Kill is safe barring a disaster of a season.

He gets that Kill has only been here two years and while he (NT) is probably frustrated with where the program is at he needs to give the guy he inherited some time to try and make things work. Basketball was a different story as the coach had been here 6 years and NT felt he was justified in making a change now. This solidifies the thought process I have had all along that Kill has 4 years to show significant signs of progress (.500 in the conference...etc). If he is still struggling to win more than 2 Big Ten games after year 4 we will be talking about the new football coach who is coming to town.

 

[Lakeville Goldy]

For a change, mediocrity was NOT rewarded...also of note: no search firm and no search committee! *whew* what a breath of fresh air. Under the prior AD we'd have taken 6 weeks just to get our act together.

Agree. I think it also says that he looks at results rather than reputation. Tubby has a reputation as a great coach (outside of Lexington KY anyway). He did not prove that at MN, and NT wasn't willing to keep waiting to find out if it's true.

I do wonder if it was a football coach if he would use a committee or not. He knows basketball a lot more than football, so may just feel he knows the right people. That being said, all you have to do is read the paper (or GH ) to come up with a list of candidates.

He gets that Kill has only been here two years and while he (NT) is probably frustrated with where the program is at he needs to give the guy he inherited some time to try and make things work. Basketball was a different story as the coach had been here 6 years and NT felt he was justified in making a change now. This solidifies the thought process I have had all along that Kill has 4 years to show significant signs of progress (.500 in the conference...etc). If he is still struggling to win more than 2 Big Ten games after year 4 we will be talking about the new football coach who is coming to town.

If I was Kill, it would make me a little nervous. Yes, Teague is a basketball guy, but football is the real cash cow at MN, and if Teague is willing to drop $2.5 million to fire a legendary basketball coach, he won't blink an eye at buying out Kill's contract if he feels it's necessary. I do agree that NT will give Kill more time, but yes, if they are still at 2 B1G wins in 2014 I'd be surprised if NT didn't pull the trigger.

 

[50PoundHead]

I think, at a level, Tubby was the basketball answer to Mason.

I don't think it helps our perception among casual sports fans nationally, but I think the firing is justified and those folks aren't watching us anyway.

As for Kill, he's the Little Engine that Could, but if it turns out he can't, his butt will be gone as well. That's at least a couple of seasons down the line, but my guess is Teague is a results first guy regardless of context. The "we're young" or "the program was totally trashed" lines aren't going to work much longer, true or not.

PS--Search firms are to please the process junkies. I think they are little more than PR when it boils down to it.

 

[Ski U Master]

Just to clarify: Are you saying that Coach Kill has had four recruiting classes with the Gophers?

Obviously not. I'm saying that after he has had four we can't just be satisfied with "making progress" without wins. I thought the other guy was right in saying we should be .500 in the Big Ten soon, but his two year time frame was a little short.

 

[Schnauzer]

I'm just glad that Maturi's statement that he was attempting to make a "Tubby Smith type hire" after he fired Brewster never worked out. Hurray for Jerry!!

 

[Killjoy]

I'm just glad that Maturi's statement that he was attempting to make a "Tubby Smith type hire" after he fired Brewster never worked out. Hurray for Jerry!!

+1 LOL - You're right! Thank god Maturi failed again!

 

[Deleted_User]

This team has incrementally improved on defense and has yet to find improvement in offense. If we see incremental improvement in 2013, we will simply will not have a different record, just improved performance. If both 2013 and 2014 seasons improve on both sides of the ball, that will be the tipping point where we see significant change in the wins and losses.

I just want to see small and continuous improvements each year from the team.

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

I agree with most of what was already said. The thing that stresses me out is the amount of money needed for buyouts, facilities, new bball coach, and that Coach Kill is going to need a raise after the new bball coach is signed at $3mil per year.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

I would think that Tubby's firing, and the resulting buyout, puts more pressure on the Gopher FB team to sell out the stadium and sell suites/club seats to maximize revenue. This program needs every penny of revenue it can get, so FB ticket sales will be a key issue to watch.

(and figure out a way to turn a profit on beer sales..............)

 

[imthewalrus]

I agree with most of what was already said. The thing that stresses me out is the amount of money needed for buyouts, facilities, new bball coach, and that Coach Kill is going to need a raise after the new bball coach is signed at $3mil per year.

I think that you are identifying what is going to become a HUGE problem for the revenue sports at the U. Your key words: THE AMOUNT OF MONEY signify what is becoming the crux of my main concern as a Golden Gopher Football Fan first and foremost. How the heck can an administration throw out nearly 300 million on a football stadium and then move towards spending THREE TIMES as much money...or more on the coaching staff of a basketball program that has always been at the heart of the problems created within the athletic department going all the way back to the 1970s?

The University used up a LOT of fund-raising good will into the future to find a way to get TCF BANK STADIUM built. They then opened that beautiful stadium with a football program headed up by tim brewster?????????? All the while, they were spending at least 2.5 times as much for their Men's Hoops Coach...Tubby Smith.

The former ad was NOT a football guy. Our new norwood is NOT a football guy. The "arms-race..." just within the U of M's own Athletic Department is really out of line...out of whack...and bodes very poorly for the future of the Football Program.

Jerry Kill has been put in a horrible position because of this preference for Men's Basketball by the former ad and now our new norwood.

Just in this very thread, posters are making statements about Kill having maybe two more years to start winning at least 50% of his conference games or our "...rough, tough, mean and nasty..." new norwood will NOT be afraid to buy out his CHEAP (in comparison to how much the men's hoops coach is paid) contract. A "million-dollar-man" is MUCH cheaper to buy out than a "...3 million PLUS dollar-man..."

I don't like it one bit. And, I fear that the state legislators are going to come down VERY hard on the amount of money being spent on coaches at the U of M. Well...it is MOSTLY the Men's Hoops Program that is creating our problems all over again. Pay Tubby more than 3 million to go away. Pay Tubby's staff off. Then, get in a bidding war and pay somewhere between 3 and 4 million a year for the "hot-shot of the 2013 season coach..." suffer from "buy out/new hire inflation..." for the cost of the new hoops coaching staff. Believe me, you are going to attract the complete attention of the legislators and our somewhat new prexy k is going to have a VERY hard time going to our elected officials with his hand out telling them he needs a lot more money than they are offering for the educational mission of the U of M.

And, all this while, the hoops coach and his staff MAY or may NOT increase attendance for home games.

I've invested (for me and my family) a lot of time, money buying tickets all these years and contributing to scholarships, etc and have a lot of loyalty to Golden Gopher Football. I am very concerned that the administration at the U of M appears to have felt they could just throw a new stadium out there and then haphazardly bring in brewster on the cheap, with NO experience to open the new stadium. THAT insured that their plan was...and still is to spend a LOT more money for a coach for the hoops program than the Football Program.

I really feel for Coach Kill and his staff. THEY will get as much or MORE heat to produce than this new high priced hoops coach. Our new norwood fancies himself to be a basketball guy.

Message to our new norwood: I fancy myself to be a LONG-TIME season ticket holding Football Fan. I see the way you are stacking the deck against the football program here. I also have seen the problems the hoops program has caused over many decades of time here at the University of Minnesota.

Give Jerry Kill and his staff half a chance. For the sake of the FUTURE of the Football Program: you can NOT pay your hoops coach THREE times as much as you pay your Football Coach. This is an impossible situation. You have GOT to take a look at what you are doing. The hoops program has always had a history of trouble.

Our new norwood needs to get his act together over there. Our new norwood can NOT afford to fancy himself as a hoops guy. He NEEDS to learn to be a BALANCED Revenue Sport guy. He HAS to pay his football coach at least as much as his hoops coach. At iowa, Ferentz gets 3 million PLUS. Our new norweed NEEDS to get hot on making the compensation problems between hoops and football go away.

I can NOT sing the praises of the administration at the U of M until they WAKE-UP... To our new norwood: it's FOOTBALL stupid...get the salary schedules for the football coach at least in line with the salary schedules for the hoops coach. At LEAST work towards balance. This will be a problem for Football at the U as LONG as the 3 to 1 ratio of pay favoring the hoops coach over the football coach exists...This is a REAL problem.

; 0 (

 

[MNVCGUY]

Walrus - First off nothing has been done yet in terms of a new basketball coach so we have no clue what kind of contract he will get. And as to Kill and giving him more money how will that make him a better football coach or cause him to win more games? He is here, he has his contract and a loyal staff that shows no real desire to leave his side, so why in the hell would you pay him more money regardless of what happens with the basketball program?

And yeah Kill has two more years, not to win the conference but to make significant tangible strides on the football field. We all saw improvement from his first year to his second but I don't know that we are leaps and bounds ahead of where Brewster (regarded as a terrible football coach by most here) had the program. Kill has to prove to NT that he can win because NT didn't hire him and therefore has no sense of loyalty to him. If Kill fails it was Maturi's hire anyway so like Tubby, NT will be willing to cut the cord and hire his own guy.

Is it cutthroat, is it cruel...yep. It is the world of college athletics these days.

 

[wait!what?]

so true, the shot across Kill's bow has been fired. get it done or hit the bricks.

 

[Killjoy]

And yeah Kill has two more years, not to win the conference but to make significant tangible strides on the football field. We all saw improvement from his first year to his second but I don't know that we are leaps and bounds ahead of where Brewster (regarded as a terrible football coach by most here) had the program. Kill has to prove to NT that he can win because NT didn't hire him and therefore has no sense of loyalty to him. If Kill fails it was Maturi's hire anyway so like Tubby, NT will be willing to cut the cord and hire his own guy.

Is it cutthroat, is it cruel...yep. It is the world of college athletics these days.

LOL - If you can’t see that we are “leaps and bounds” ahead of where Brewster had the program you really don’t know the difference between a seasoned successful coach a coach who hoped to learn how to become a head coach.

I also find it quite amazing how flippant you are about NT not needing to have any sense of loyalty to Kill since he didn’t hire him. I understand that Kill needs to perform but NT better recognize that his chance of being successful here is much greater if Kill is also successful. By saying that there is no problem for NT if he fires Kill, you are totally ignoring how difficult that would make it to recruit a named new coach in the future. The good news is that NT has just the right man to turn this program around and I think he know this.

And yes, there is no guarantee that Kill will be able to do it but it is way too early to talk about NT firing Kill.

 

[GopherGod]

I think that you are identifying what is going to become a HUGE problem for the revenue sports at the U. Your key words: THE AMOUNT OF MONEY signify what is becoming the crux of my main concern as a Golden Gopher Football Fan first and foremost. How the heck can an administration throw out nearly 300 million on a football stadium and then move towards spending THREE TIMES as much money...or more on the coaching staff of a basketball program that has always been at the heart of the problems created within the athletic department going all the way back to the 1970s?

The University used up a LOT of fund-raising good will into the future to find a way to get TCF BANK STADIUM built. They then opened that beautiful stadium with a football program headed up by tim brewster?????????? All the while, they were spending at least 2.5 times as much for their Men's Hoops Coach...Tubby Smith.

The former ad was NOT a football guy. Our new norwood is NOT a football guy. The "arms-race..." just within the U of M's own Athletic Department is really out of line...out of whack...and bodes very poorly for the future of the Football Program.

Jerry Kill has been put in a horrible position because of this preference for Men's Basketball by the former ad and now our new norwood.

Just in this very thread, posters are making statements about Kill having maybe two more years to start winning at least 50% of his conference games or our "...rough, tough, mean and nasty..." new norwood will NOT be afraid to buy out his CHEAP (in comparison to how much the men's hoops coach is paid) contract. A "million-dollar-man" is MUCH cheaper to buy out than a "...3 million PLUS dollar-man..."

I don't like it one bit. And, I fear that the state legislators are going to come down VERY hard on the amount of money being spent on coaches at the U of M. Well...it is MOSTLY the Men's Hoops Program that is creating our problems all over again. Pay Tubby more than 3 million to go away. Pay Tubby's staff off. Then, get in a bidding war and pay somewhere between 3 and 4 million a year for the "hot-shot of the 2013 season coach..." suffer from "buy out/new hire inflation..." for the cost of the new hoops coaching staff. Believe me, you are going to attract the complete attention of the legislators and our somewhat new prexy k is going to have a VERY hard time going to our elected officials with his hand out telling them he needs a lot more money than they are offering for the educational mission of the U of M.

And, all this while, the hoops coach and his staff MAY or may NOT increase attendance for home games.

I've invested (for me and my family) a lot of time, money buying tickets all these years and contributing to scholarships, etc and have a lot of loyalty to Golden Gopher Football. I am very concerned that the administration at the U of M appears to have felt they could just throw a new stadium out there and then haphazardly bring in brewster on the cheap, with NO experience to open the new stadium. THAT insured that their plan was...and still is to spend a LOT more money for a coach for the hoops program than the Football Program.

I really feel for Coach Kill and his staff. THEY will get as much or MORE heat to produce than this new high priced hoops coach. Our new norwood fancies himself to be a basketball guy.

Message to our new norwood: I fancy myself to be a LONG-TIME season ticket holding Football Fan. I see the way you are stacking the deck against the football program here. I also have seen the problems the hoops program has caused over many decades of time here at the University of Minnesota.

Give Jerry Kill and his staff half a chance. For the sake of the FUTURE of the Football Program: you can NOT pay your hoops coach THREE times as much as you pay your Football Coach. This is an impossible situation. You have GOT to take a look at what you are doing. The hoops program has always had a history of trouble.

Our new norwood needs to get his act together over there. Our new norwood can NOT afford to fancy himself as a hoops guy. He NEEDS to learn to be a BALANCED Revenue Sport guy. He HAS to pay his football coach at least as much as his hoops coach. At iowa, Ferentz gets 3 million PLUS. Our new norweed NEEDS to get hot on making the compensation problems between hoops and football go away.

I can NOT sing the praises of the administration at the U of M until they WAKE-UP... To our new norwood: it's FOOTBALL stupid...get the salary schedules for the football coach at least in line with the salary schedules for the hoops coach. At LEAST work towards balance. This will be a problem for Football at the U as LONG as the 3 to 1 ratio of pay favoring the hoops coach over the football coach exists...This is a REAL problem.

; 0 (

Why does Kill need a raise just because we may hire a new and more expensive basketball coach. Kill hasn't won anything yet and add in his health issues and he has zero leverage to expect more money. There are not better paying jobs knocking on his door, if that time comes then pay him more then. He already in essence got his raise by paying 800K for him to chicken out of a game so he can virtually assure himself of making a no name bowl game. He gets 100K for making any bowl game.

 

[MNVCGUY]

LOL - If you can’t see that we are “leaps and bounds” ahead of where Brewster had the program you really don’t know the difference between a seasoned successful coach a coach who hoped to learn how to become a head coach.

I also find it quite amazing how flippant you are about NT not needing to have any sense of loyalty to Kill since he didn’t hire him. I understand that Kill needs to perform but NT better recognize that his chance of being successful here is much greater if Kill is also successful. By saying that there is no problem for NT if he fires Kill, you are totally ignoring how difficult that would make it to recruit a named new coach in the future. The good news is that NT has just the right man to turn this program around and I think he know this.

And yes, there is no guarantee that Kill will be able to do it but it is way too early to talk about NT firing Kill.

To the second point first. Of course NT wants Kill to succeed and he will do what he can to support him and he won't get rid of him just to get rid of him. But at the same time his legacy is not tied to Kill being successful because he didn't hire him so if he feels that the program is not progressing the way he wants it to he won't hesitate to make the move in the exact same manner as what happened in basketball. I am sure he has minimum thresholds he needs to see the program achieve over the next few years (note I am not trying to imply in any way shape or form that NT would even consider firing Kill right now) and as long as Kill is meeting those he will be fine. My whole point is I don't think he will hesitate to pull the trigger after 2014 if the program isn't where he believes it should be under Kill's leadership.

As to the first point. Kill is light years ahead of Brew from a staff stability/unified message point. On the field though this is a team that has won 2 conference games the last two years and looked non-competitive in a lot of Big Ten Games. After the debacle of 2007 when Brew clearly had no clue what he was doing the team managed to win 3 Big Ten games in each of the next two seasons. So yeah I see what Kill is trying to do but from a results standpoint (and in the end that is all that truly matters) the program is not in a significantly better place then it was under Brewster.

I don't believe for a second NT will do anything in the next two years baring some major outside factor but I also don't think he will sit on the sidelines and let Kill play out all 7 years of his deal if the results are not there. The bottom line is NT wants Kill to succeed but if he doesn't he won't hesitate to pull the trigger and bring in the next guy to take a run at it.

 

[Parski1]

so true, the shot across Kill's bow has been fired. get it done or hit the bricks.

I have to agree with this after seeing how the U handled Tubby. Money\buyouts are not an issue....Win.