Does St. Johns, St. Thomas, and NDSU / SDSU hurt the Gophers?

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Ok. People are utterly missing the point. First, you can have two teams you both want to see win if they are in different divisions. One does and one doesn’t. Watching the one that doesn’t continually pulling the same self inflicted stuff year after year (after year) doesn’t mean you don’t want them to succeed - it means you want something different from the same rhetoric you’ve gotten from Smokey Joe, Holtz, Wacker, Brew, Kill (brick by brick), now Year Zero. Ok, just to end this, as there is way too much “short man syndrome” here:
The Gophers are looking great! HUGE progress - should be a Top Ten team by 2020 and everyone’s inspired! NDSU is small potatoes and we would beat them by 30 any given Saturday - their NFL players are awful. We have the best recruiting class EVER!! Feel bad for the rest of the Big10 next year. Gophers 45 - WI 3. RTB!!
Ok, that should satisfy the masses. Enough on this subject.
 

FargoRedd said:
The Gophers would maybe get to .500 in the Mo Valley conference. Maybe. They not only lose to NDSU, but SDSU as well. This is a BAD Big10 team that on rare occasion rises to “ok” and it’s been that way for decades. NDSU has handled them decisevely here (they’d NEVER schedule them in Fargo). The QB’s have been better for at least 10 years (maybe longer). All you have to do is watch to know this . . . Of course it hurts the U. People have been watching bad to mediocre football so long here they can’t even see the obvious. Btw, the comment about more or less NDSU getting lucky with one recent NFL player is waaaay off base. There have been a number of NFL players from NDSU that could have played for the Gophers instead - but the program is bad. Maybe the question is more “Do the Gophers hurt themselves and players go elsewhere?” That’s more accurate. If one is watching football that involves giving up record yards on defense and similar blunders week after week - AND convinces oneself a coach sprinting around and making up nonsensical excuses and acronyms is a replacement for substance - then it’s possible one gets to “it doesn’t matter”. Unfortunately, any objective observer would know otherwise. You will once again see how woefully PJ is in over his head again tomorrow at 2:30. At least we will have some new meaningless post game platitudes from him on Monday - those are always entertaining.
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Easy Fargo, your beloved conference has many players who can compete in the BIG but are not able to get into a BIG school.
 

FargoRedd said:
Ok. People are utterly missing the point. First, you can have two teams you both want to see win if they are in different divisions. One does and one doesn’t. Watching the one that doesn’t continually pulling the same self inflicted stuff year after year (after year) doesn’t mean you don’t want them to succeed - it means you want something different from the same rhetoric you’ve gotten from Smokey Joe, Holtz, Wacker, Brew, Kill (brick by brick), now Year Zero. Ok, just to end this, as there is way too much “short man syndrome” here:
The Gophers are looking great! HUGE progress - should be a Top Ten team by 2020 and everyone’s inspired! NDSU is small potatoes and we would beat them by 30 any given Saturday - their NFL players are awful. We have the best recruiting class EVER!! Feel bad for the rest of the Big10 next year. Gophers 45 - WI 3. RTB!!
Ok, that should satisfy the masses. Enough on this subject.
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Pretty idiotic to not even engage in a logical debate. Who would we lose to in the MVC this year? Who have we battled NDSU for and lost? How many actually good P5 teams has NDSU beat ever?
 

FargoRedd said:
You are right, but NDSU would have beaten a team like Buffalo in the Fargodome by like 3 TD’s or more. The Gophers barely eek out a win at home - which in college FB is essentially a “loss”.
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I think Buffalo is better than you think. They are 6-6 and just beat an 8-4 Ohio team. Most of their losses are pretty close. Not to mention it was game 1 of the PJ era and the entire season. Bad comparison on your part.
 

FargoRedd said:
Ok. People are utterly missing the point. First, you can have two teams you both want to see win if they are in different divisions. One does and one doesn’t. Watching the one that doesn’t continually pulling the same self inflicted stuff year after year (after year) doesn’t mean you don’t want them to succeed - it means you want something different from the same rhetoric you’ve gotten from Smokey Joe, Holtz, Wacker, Brew, Kill (brick by brick), now Year Zero. Ok, just to end this, as there is way too much “short man syndrome” here:
The Gophers are looking great! HUGE progress - should be a Top Ten team by 2020 and everyone’s inspired! NDSU is small potatoes and we would beat them by 30 any given Saturday - their NFL players are awful. We have the best recruiting class EVER!! Feel bad for the rest of the Big10 next year. Gophers 45 - WI 3. RTB!!
Ok, that should satisfy the masses. Enough on this subject.
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Bad year at the sugar beet factory?
 



My thought is from a depth perspective.

Perhaps NDSU's best cornerback, safety, or o-lineman would have provided some depth.

Don't know any players so can't speak on specifics.
 

 

Face The Facts said:
Of course we are the only division 1, FBS school, but these other schools compete nationally at their level.
Does their success hurt us when it comes to getting additional walk ons, or is this just a bad excuse?

Do players get similar scholarships to play at these schools (which would make more financial sense than walking on at the U)?
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I think they actually help us. Anytime the sport of football is being promoted in Minnesota and the Dakotas it means more fans are growing up watching/playing football and more recruits.
Lots of kids in the dakotas are playing football pretending to be Carson Wentz. Thats a good thing for us.
 



West Fargo Gopher Fan said:
I think they actually help us. Anytime the sport of football is being promoted in Minnesota and the Dakotas it means more fans are growing up watching/playing football and more recruits.
Lots of kids in the dakotas are playing football pretending to be Carson Wentz. Thats a good thing for us.
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Of course if you listen to ReddFargo you'd have to be nuts to think they'd play at the U over NDSU.
Hopefully there are too many Carson Wentz v2.0 for NDSU to sign them all.
 

Word said:
I think Buffalo is better than you think. They are 6-6 and just beat an 8-4 Ohio team. Most of their losses are pretty close. Not to mention it was game 1 of the PJ era and the entire season. Bad comparison on your part.
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Buffalo is better n than most teams on ndsu schedule
 

FargoRedd said:
Ok. People are utterly missing the point. First, you can have two teams you both want to see win if they are in different divisions. One does and one doesn’t. Watching the one that doesn’t continually pulling the same self inflicted stuff year after year (after year) doesn’t mean you don’t want them to succeed - it means you want something different from the same rhetoric you’ve gotten from Smokey Joe, Holtz, Wacker, Brew, Kill (brick by brick), now Year Zero. Ok, just to end this, as there is way too much “short man syndrome” here:
The Gophers are looking great! HUGE progress - should be a Top Ten team by 2020 and everyone’s inspired! NDSU is small potatoes and we would beat them by 30 any given Saturday - their NFL players are awful. We have the best recruiting class EVER!! Feel bad for the rest of the Big10 next year. Gophers 45 - WI 3. RTB!!
Ok, that should satisfy the masses. Enough on this subject.
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Competing in B1G is tougher than FCS


Ndsu would be exposed if they moved up to b1g, but b1g would never take them, we could fire coyle and fleck and get ndsu staff and recruiting class tomorrow if we wanted


In end, who cares, enjoy your success
 





I don’t know about USTd, but I’d definitely say no for SJU. Occasionally we get a player with a walk-on offer from Minnesota. The only contributor that I can remember them both recruiting was Eric Decker and he got a scholarship and that ended that.
 

SJUgopher said:
I don’t know about USTd, but I’d definitely say no for SJU. Occasionally we get a player with a walk-on offer from Minnesota. The only contributor that I can remember them both recruiting was Eric Decker and he got a scholarship and that ended that.
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Gophers impact SJU and UST more than they impact the gophers.
When Minnesota has had coaching transitions St. Thomas has always picked up a bunch of guys who transfer out.
 

salzie said:
Buffalo is better n than most teams on ndsu schedule
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For

Buffalo has a Sagarin rating of 105. That would put the behind 7 of 10 teams in the MVFC. Only Southern IL, Mizz St and IN St are lower.
 

Some guy said:
Hindsight is hindsight
I would rather have Zack zenner than Vraa. Passed on both. Same class.
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I honestly and truly think that the TC metro area alone produces 5-10 guys a year who could, in the right situation of being developed at a big time college and playing a lot, make it to at least an NFL practice squad.

That has to be true ... I mean right there, Vraa and Zenner, both from class of 2011 in the same school district! (Eagan-AV-Rosemount) Also another example off the top of my head: Billy Turner was at Mounds View and Jimmy Gjere was at Irondale, class of 2010, same school district. Unfortunate that the latter had injury problems that cut his career short, but I rest my case. Gophers bet on the latter, so NDSU took the former. As you say, hindsight ...


I mean, maybe that's not even that crazy of a thing to say. There are probably 2M people in the Hennepin, Ramsey, Anoka, Dakota, and Washington counties alone. And there is good ball played here, despite all the BS stereotypes of being in the north, being slow, all that crap.

EDIT - looking now, 2016 estimates: Hennepin 1.2M, Ramsey 540k, Dakota 420k, Anoka 350k, Wash 250k .... so 2.8M right there. And Scott, Carver, Wright, all above 100k too.
 

Buffalo is a better team than NDSU this year. So this argument is pointless.
 

The D2 and D3 teams have nothing to do with us. The level of play is different enough that almost none of these players would be B1G players. Probably the top 1-2 players on a D2 team would help out the Gophers, and likely none on a D3 one.

NDSU doesn't directly poach many guys but their success and the regional strength at the lower levels does make me think the Gophers should work a little harder to fill out the roster with Minnesota and other regional kids and a little less on filling the class out in Florida or Georgia which get picked over quite heavily.
 

I'm going to throw this point in here, because it sort-of beliongs...

It is a shame that kids from Minnesota have to leave the state if they're deemed not good enough for the Gophers. Just look at the number of MN kids on the NDSU roster each year. There should be a school in Minnesota that steps up to FCS.

I'd personally like to see Minnesota-Duluth step up, due to them being part of the U system. It might be that St. Thomas could have enough $$$$ to make the jump.
 

laazrakit said:
I'm going to throw this point in here, because it sort-of beliongs...

It is a shame that kids from Minnesota have to leave the state if they're deemed not good enough for the Gophers. Just look at the number of MN kids on the NDSU roster each year. There should be a school in Minnesota that steps up to FCS.

I'd personally like to see Minnesota-Duluth step up, due to them being part of the U system. It might be that St. Thomas could have enough $$$$ to make the jump.
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It’s a shame? They have lots of NW MN rooting for them at NDSU. Lots of NDSU people in the DL and surrounding area. Would it be a shame for western WI kid to cross the border to MN or UMD? That’s just silly.
 

Not any more than It hurts Michigan or Michigan State competing with each other along with Central, Western, and Eastern Michigan, Grand Valley State, Ferris State, Saginaw, and Northern Michigan.
 

I do think there is an effect where heavy attention is focused on southern high schools and other hotbeds. This leads to a lot of 3rd tier prospects getting noticed, getting 2* or 3*, and ending up at low FBS programs around the country, while similarly talented upper Midwest kids get missed and wind up at places like NDSU instead.

Those guys wouldn't likely power a B1G title team here, but they do give some of the local FCS teams better talent than their southern counterparts.
 

laazrakit said:
I'm going to throw this point in here, because it sort-of beliongs...

It is a shame that kids from Minnesota have to leave the state if they're deemed not good enough for the Gophers. Just look at the number of MN kids on the NDSU roster each year. There should be a school in Minnesota that steps up to FCS.

I'd personally like to see Minnesota-Duluth step up, due to them being part of the U system. It might be that St. Thomas could have enough $$$$ to make the jump.
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Can't see any current DII or DIII Minnesota programs moving to FCS, unless it's as a non-scholarship program. There is such a thing, it's called the Pioneer League. The nearest school in that is Drake University, in Iowa.

If, for example, Duluth moved to DI and joined the Summit League (which has a few schools in its hockey conference, UND, Omaha, Denver), they would either need to drop football altogether, or move it to non-scholarship in the Pioneer League.

There is just no way in heck they could afford moving the athletic dept up to DI and moving the football program from DII to FCS. They don't have anywhere near the financial support from the fanbase to make such a move work. I think they get like 2k - 4k attendance for their games.


fmlizard said:
I do think there is an effect where heavy attention is focused on southern high schools and other hotbeds. This leads to a lot of 3rd tier prospects getting noticed, getting 2* or 3*, and ending up at low FBS programs around the country, while similarly talented upper Midwest kids get missed and wind up at places like NDSU instead.

Those guys wouldn't likely power a B1G title team here, but they do give some of the local FCS teams better talent than their southern counterparts.
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There just aren't really any FBS programs outside the Big Ten in the upper widwest (Dakotas, Neb, Iowa, Wisc, Minn). The closest one is N Illinois, which does some recruiting in the TC metro. Also Wyoming does recruit the TC metro a bit, which I think is because they have NDSU's old coaching staff, more than anything.

So yes, the Dakotas have benefited tremendously from that.
 

MnplsGopher said:
Can't see any current DII or DIII Minnesota programs moving to FCS, unless it's as a non-scholarship program. There is such a thing, it's called the Pioneer League. The nearest school in that is Drake University, in Iowa.

If, for example, Duluth moved to DI and joined the Summit League (which has a few schools in its hockey conference, UND, Omaha, Denver), they would either need to drop football altogether, or move it to non-scholarship in the Pioneer League.

There is just no way in heck they could afford moving the athletic dept up to DI and moving the football program from DII to FCS. They don't have anywhere near the financial support from the fanbase to make such a move work. I think they get like 2k - 4k attendance for their games.
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This. Duluth is currently involved in a lawsuit because they let some coaches go in part for budget reasons. I think Mankato would possibly be the most likely to move up but even then, they'd need a sugar daddy like Glen Taylor to donate a huge amount of money to make it happen. And a pretty major upgrade in facilities for football as well. St. Thomas has the money to make such a move, but decided against it for now.

There just aren't really any FBS programs outside the Big Ten in the upper widwest (Dakotas, Neb, Iowa, Wisc, Minn). The closest one is N Illinois, which does some recruiting in the TC metro.
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No, the closest is Iowa State.
 

St. Thomas having the money to move to FCS is a myth unless they drop numerous sports.

To keep the sports they have would be around 280 scholarships if they fully funded at the divison1 level. If they went division 1, they wouldn’t go to get their tails whipped. Meaning each sport would have the decision to fund or cut. St. Thomas people have no desire to drop football. But dropping football would be the only way to come close to making the numbers work.
280 scholarships x 41,667 estimated cost of attendance = 11.7 million per year
= 117 million dollars over 10 years plus rises in cost of attendance.
 

The endowment at UST is 458 million (yes, I know that they can't just tap that for sports.) However, they have a lot of deep pockets donating money to the school that state schools in MN simply don't have. While it may seem like they don't have the money, I would not be surprised if they couldn't raise it if they tried. In my experience, people who go to private schools and do well for themselves tend to have stronger ties to their alma maters than do those who attend state schools, and with those ties come donations.
 

Wisconsin is a good case study. They have no D-II football teams, and they have produced several stars who were former walkons the past ten years. It's unlikely those two facts are not linked.
 

Reality is that there will always be late bloomers/diamonds in the rough that go to SDSU/NDSU and succeed. It happens in every state. We are no different. It hurts our depth some, but I don't recall ever losing any 3-star or better guys to those schools. There are only so many scholarships to go around. The notion that either of those programs could compete in the B1G over a 9 game conference season is ridiculous, but there is no changing the minds of those who think that. They would maybe win one or two conference games in a given year, possibly 3 or 4 in a really good year with the right schedule. Wouldn't fit at all academically, but that's a whole different story.

The D2/D3 schools have no measurable effect. Any current Gopher could step into the MIAC and dominate immediately. The difference between D1 college football and D3 college football is greater than the difference between pro football and D1 football, especially if you are talking Power 5 conferences.

Over 85% of the NFL is made up of players from FBS conferences, and less than 8% from FCS conferences, And about 2/3 of NFL players come from Power 5 conferences.
 

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