Different Opinion on Nelsons Redshirt

[Sportsfan24]

I couldn't believe this at first, but after some time to think about it I have come around. Here is what I think must be happening.

1. Obviously, they must think Gray's ankle will not heal sufficiently anytime soon to allow him to stay at QB. He had 4 weeks off after the injury, but re-aggravated it after just a couple quarters of being back in. High ankle sprains can be nagging like that, so it wouldn't shock me if it never
completely heals in the next 5 weeks.

2. That leaves Shortell. Between his inconsistent passing and concussion (which pretty much cuts
out any limited running he was doing), it seems there is not much left for him to contribute at this
time.

3. About running... Maybe they could play Shortell and not ever run him. Well once you do that,
you are changing the offense to suit what he can contribute. If he was a great passer then yes,
maybe you do that. But seeing how inconsistent he has been through the air, is it worth it to
change the offense to something it's not, while at the same time have it be horrible? That is a
lose-lose. By putting Nelson in you are running the 'real' kill offense which demands a dual-threat
QB. This is better for the entire offense for this year, and especially going into next.

So in a nutshell, the coaches must think by NOT having Nelson in, you are essentially wasting the last 6 games of the season by running what is not the real offense with mediocre results.

While I would hope our coaches were more creative offensively than what you suggest i do admit your scenerio is very plausible and would make sense to me....hope this is the case.

 

[Tim Riggins]

Moses Alpate quickly comes to mind, as does Mike Carter who was forced into a red shirt versus losing a year elgilblity.

Mike carter never redshirted, although I wish he would have last year with as little as he played.

 

[Great Plains Gopher]

While it is possible; I seriously doubt the 3rd team QB; a QB who received few reps somehow impressed while scout team to the point of beating Shortell out. What I think happened is Kill decided that Nelson was his starting QB next season and knowing that he wouldn't have an experienced back up (I bet money Shortell transfers) decided to elevate Nelson now so that he has an experienced QB next season (pure speculation and conjecture oh my part).

That's an interesting take on it...

 

[station19]

Do you think it is possible that Shortell was the 2nd best option during the spring and fall camp? Do you also think it is possible that Nelson, a freshmen, improved during the past two months to where he moved ahead of Shortell? He is a freshman and it may have just taken him some time to get comfortable with everything. It's not uncommon at all.

That may be a little too difficult for some folks to grasp.

 

[Parski1]

That may be a little too difficult for some folks to grasp.

I thought that Station18 - Shortell has proved to be too inconsistent.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Moses Alpate quickly comes to mind, as does Mike Carter who was forced into a red shirt versus losing a year elgilblity.

Well, I said Mike Carter but I can't begrudge ANY coach in the country for not playing someone who had obvious behavioral issues. He admitted he had issues, Tyrone Carter talked about those issues. When he had that sorted out, he was allowed to play. A coach in his first year can't play a kid like Mike Carter who is not buying into the program.

Additionally, Michael Carter was essentially replaced by Henderson and Johnson in terms of PT. I don't see the motivation for Coach Kill to play those guys ahead of Michael Carter. They aren't younger, they weren't "his" guys, or anything of the sort. I think Michael Carter was an example of a talented kid who didn't have his head on straight, I can't blame Coach Kill for benching him.

As far as Moses...I can't blame Coach Kill either. This is a kid who has eaten himself up to 290 lbs. He was told that he needed to lose weight in order to play QB. Even if he could somehow be an effective QB at 275-290 lbs, it sets a bad example playing a guy that isn't putting in as much work as the other players. Now, I'm not ripping on Moses. From everything I've heard he's a really nice kid and represents the U really well off the field.

I could understand an argument that Parish never got a fair shake and that might have been valid. He looked decent during spring games and all that. I would have liked to have seen him given a chance ahead of Max last year, so I suppose that could be an example.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

While it is possible; I seriously doubt the 3rd team QB; a QB who received few reps somehow impressed while scout team to the point of beating Shortell out. What I think happened is Kill decided that Nelson was his starting QB next season and knowing that he wouldn't have an experienced back up (I bet money Shortell transfers) decided to elevate Nelson now so that he has an experienced QB next season (pure speculation and conjecture oh my part).

Keep in mind that Gray has been injured (off and on) since the Western Michigan game. It's very likely that Nelson has been getting considerably more reps over the last couple weeks. From the Western Michigan game until the NWestern game, Nelson was #2. That was almost an entire month of running with the #2's. Additionally, the staff knew the QBs were banged up and Nelson was probably running a lot with the #2s as a safety valve.

So no, I don't think it's possible for a kid who is running the scout team to impress enough to take over. However, I do think it's possible for a kid who has been running with the second unit for a month to impress enough to play.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Keep in mind that Gray has been injured (off and on) since the Western Michigan game. It's very likely that Nelson has been getting considerably more reps over the last couple weeks. From the Western Michigan game until the NWestern game, Nelson was #2. That was almost an entire month of running with the #2's. Additionally, the staff knew the QBs were banged up and Nelson was probably running a lot with the #2s as a safety valve.

So no, I don't think it's possible for a kid who is running the scout team to impress enough to take
over. However, I do think it's possible for a kid who has been running with the second unit for a
month to impress enough to play.

Great observations about Nelson getting reps while Gray was injured. I agree he would have. I still believe Nelsons elevation had more to do with Kills opinion on Shortell versus anything Nelson did in practice.....something Kill should have determined long before the decision to redshirt Nelson.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Well, I said Mike Carter but I can't begrudge ANY coach in the country for not playing someone who had obvious behavioral issues. He admitted he had issues, Tyrone Carter talked about those issues. When he had that sorted out, he was allowed to play. A coach in his first year can't play a kid like Mike Carter who is not buying into the program.

Additionally, Michael Carter was essentially replaced by Henderson and Johnson in terms of PT. I don't see the motivation for Coach Kill to play those guys ahead of Michael Carter. They aren't younger, they weren't "his" guys, or anything of the sort. I think Michael Carter was an example of a talented kid who didn't have his head on straight, I can't blame Coach Kill for benching him.

As far as Moses...I can't blame Coach Kill either. This is a kid who has eaten himself up to 290 lbs. He was told that he needed to lose weight in order to play QB. Even if he could somehow be an effective QB at 275-290 lbs, it sets a bad example playing a guy that isn't putting in as much work as the other players. Now, I'm not ripping on Moses. From everything I've heard he's a really nice kid and represents the U really well off the field.

I could understand an argument that Parish never got a fair shake and that might have been valid.
He looked decent during spring games and all that. I would have liked to have seen him given a
chance ahead of Max last year, so I suppose that could be an example.

I agree with the circumstances that led to Alpate redshirting (I seriously doubt he will get a 5th year even though he did) and Carters limited play (corrected pointed out he did play). As you pointed out my real issue is related to Parrish, the fact team itself had to endure this and Kills decisions have led to some of these loses.

 

[Killjoy]

"Sorry if this is a bit choppy or something, but I am attempting to have a conversation with my wife while I type! "

You are a shining example of being good at multitasking.

Dr.Don - It may turn out that he is a shining example of why multitasking can be bad after his wife reams him out for not remembering what she told him.

 

[wels0081]

Because I like to place unrealistic expectations on our student athletes...

Another good quarterback was thrust into a starting role his freshman season because of injuries.


Peyton Manning's freshman year:

89 completions in 144 attempts. 1141 yards, 11 TD's and 6 Int's.

Phil Nelson's projected stats (assuming 5 games remain):

78 completions in 144 attempts. 894 yards, 12 TD's and 12 Int's.

 

[mnsports1]

Because I like to place unrealistic expectations on our student athletes...

Another good quarterback was thrust into a starting role his freshman season because of injuries.


Peyton Manning's freshman year:

89 completions in 144 attempts. 1141 yards, 11 TD's and 6 Int's.

Phil Nelson's projected stats (assuming 5 games remain):

78 completions in 144 attempts. 894 yards, 12 TD's and 12 Int's.

So he is projected to be worse than Peyton Manning?

 

[mnsportsgeek]

Because I like to place unrealistic expectations on our student athletes...

Another good quarterback was thrust into a starting role his freshman season because of injuries.


Peyton Manning's freshman year:

89 completions in 144 attempts. 1141 yards, 11 TD's and 6 Int's.

Phil Nelson's projected stats (assuming 5 games remain):

78 completions in 144 attempts. 894 yards, 12 TD's and 12 Int's.

These stats are not even remotely similar.

 

[LloydChristmas]

After reading a few different threads on here I think I may feel differently about not redshirting Nelson than the majority. In my opinion, as long as Nelson is the starter for the rest of the year, I don't think it was a mistake by Kill. He will get 6 or 7 games of good experience which could prove beneficial to him and the team for next year. I would be against it if it were week 10 or something, but I think a chance of 7 games of starting and playing every down (avoiding injury) is enough playing time to warrant playing him.

As far as the people that don't understand why, if he gives us a better chance of winning, we didn't start him as soon as Gray went down. Just my opinion, but perhaps they thought that Shortell would be better than he was. It seems like Shortell plays well when coming in as a replacement but isn't ready to be a full time starter in the Big 10.

Also, as far as Gray not being happy about it...I want all of our players to be happy, but if Kill thinks we have a better chance at winning having Nelson at QB and Gray at WR then thats what he has to do. I'm sure there are a number of players that aren't happy with the playing time they are getting (Gillum comes to mind...and perhaps Edwards wasn't happy with his move to LB, I don't know either way). I would guess if given the choice of being the starting WR and backup QB or just being the backup QB, Gray would be happy to run some routes.

Just my two cents...I know a lot of people really wanted to RS Nelson (and in an ideal circumstance I wanted him to as well) but it just seems like many people are acting like its for one game or something. There is a lot of season left and a lot of experience to gain from this season.

Sorry if this is a bit choppy or something, but I am attempting to have a conversation with my wife while I type!

I was bitter about Nelson's redshirt being burned until I thought about the possibility of these 4 playing together in the same class for 3.5 years.

Philip Nelson
Andre McDonald
KJ Maye
Lincoln Plsek

You add a couple WR to this group, another RB, plus Maxx and we should be good to go for a while

 

[John Galt]

I have no problem with Nelson playing now if he gives them the best chance to win. My bigger issue is that Kill said MarQueis Gray could be one of the surprise players in the entire country this summer. We read endless articles on how much he had improved and his development at QB, he just needed the reps and a cohesive coaching staff. So now, 6 games in he's been moved back to WR? That's the head-scratcher...

 

[mnsports1]

I have no problem with Nelson playing now if he gives them the best chance to win. My bigger issue is that Kill said MarQueis Gray could be one of the surprise players in the entire country this summer. We read endless articles on how much he had improved and his development at QB, he just needed the reps and a cohesive coaching staff. So now, 6 games in he's been moved back to WR? That's the head-scratcher...

I'm guessing that when that was said Kill envisioned that 6 games in Gray would have played QB for 6 games, not roughly 3, and he would have had the practice reps in between. Injuries change things.

 

[Gopher_Nutz]

I was bitter about Nelson's redshirt being burned until I thought about the possibility of these 4 playing together in the same class for 3.5 years.

Philip Nelson
Andre McDonald
KJ Maye
Lincoln Plsek

You add a couple WR to this group, another RB, plus Maxx and we should be good to go for a while

J. Harbison--WR
R. Williams--RB

 

[atsgopher]

Why can't Nelson redshirt next season while filling in for Shortell this season.

This gives Leidner the chance to be the back up to Shortell next year and Nelson an equal shot to develop during a red shirt season next year.

Meanwhile, Shortell has the chance to rest while still learning from Marquies and the shot to teach Nelson. From both playing and coaching expereince I can tell you teaching sports is one of the most effective ways to enhance your own game. It forces you to think about it differing and much more challenging terms.

Or heck, why don't we just admit the sky has fallen, pull Max's scholarship, bust up Nelson's legs, and annoint the top QB recruit as next years starter.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Because I like to place unrealistic expectations on our student athletes...

Another good quarterback was thrust into a starting role his freshman season because of injuries.


Peyton Manning's freshman year:

89 completions in 144 attempts. 1141 yards, 11 TD's and 6 Int's.

Phil Nelson's projected stats (assuming 5 games remain):

78 completions in 144 attempts. 894 yards, 12 TD's and 12 Int's.

A comaprison to Peyton Manning....really? And as others pointed out the numbers don't even matchup anyway outside of the attempts and TD's.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I have no problem with Nelson playing now if he gives them the best chance to win. My bigger issue is that Kill said MarQueis Gray could be one of the surprise players in the entire country this summer. We read endless articles on how much he had improved and his development at QB, he just needed the reps and a cohesive coaching staff. So now, 6 games in he's been moved back to WR? That's the head-scratcher...

Gray has been hurt so he hasn't gotten the reps he's needed. He will also probably not get back to 100% the rest of the year. His greatest attribute at QB is his running ability. But if he can't do that very well because of his ankle/knee, he's not going to be very good overall. He can still contribute though at WR where he would take far less hits.

 

[disco]

Why can't Nelson redshirt next season while filling in for Shortell this season.

This gives Leidner the chance to be the back up to Shortell next year and Nelson an equal shot to develop during a red shirt season next year.

Meanwhile, Shortell has the chance to rest while still learning from Marquies and the shot to teach Nelson. From both playing and coaching expereince I can tell you teaching sports is one of the most effective ways to enhance your own game. It forces you to think about it differing and much more challenging terms.

Or heck, why don't we just admit the sky has fallen, pull Max's scholarship, bust up Nelson's legs, and annoint the top QB recruit as next years starter.

I just don't see Shortell as a big time QB. If he does transfer, it's probably going to be to a middling FCS program like South Dakota. I was annoyed about the Nelson deal at first, but now I think it was a good move. Get him some game experience and then you hopefully have a very good three year starter. Nothing wrong with that. I'd actually rather have that than the Wisconsin "get someone who graduated by making up a phony major/grad school issue so they can play for a year" deal, because that could easily blow up in your face.

If Gray would have stayed healthy, this would not be an issue, but he isn't and likely won't be 100% for the rest of the year, so here we are.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I just don't see Shortell as a big time QB. If he does transfer, it's probably going to be to a middling FCS program like South Dakota. I was annoyed about the Nelson deal at first, but now I think it was a good move. Get him some game experience and then you hopefully have a very good three year starter. Nothing wrong with that. I'd actually rather have that than the Wisconsin "get someone who graduated by making up a phony major/grad school issue so they can play for a year" deal, because that could easily blow up in your face.

If Gray would have stayed healthy, this would not be an issue, but he isn't and likely won't be 100% for the rest of the year, so here we are.

I think Shortell is a decent QB but he is not a good fit for the offense that Kill/Limegrover want to run. I will be surprised if he sticks around because he is in the perfect situation to transfer in that he still has 3 years of eligibility left after this year so he can go to an FBS school, sit a year and have 2 remaining or drop down a level and play right away.

The scary thing to me assuming he does transfer is that it leaves us really thin at the QB position next year and with all the runs these coaches like to call Nelson is going to have to prove really durable to stand up to the pounding he is going to take on a weekly basis. We have no clue at this point if he is going to be the kind of guy that can take a lot of hits and remain effective. He ran the ball 16 times last week and will probably be asked to run a bunch more this week so will be interesting to see how he holds up.

 

[Formo]

Uhhh.. Wasn't Nelson's RS burned because of injuries to Max and Gray?! So what's the complaining about Coach's 'decision'?? Wasn't much of a decision, eh?

 

[Formo]

I have no problem with Nelson playing now if he gives them the best chance to win. My bigger issue is that Kill said MarQueis Gray could be one of the surprise players in the entire country this summer. We read endless articles on how much he had improved and his development at QB, he just needed the reps and a cohesive coaching staff. So now, 6 games in he's been moved back to WR? That's the head-scratcher...

Yeah.. Why is everyone seemingly conveniently getting a case of amnesia? Gray is hurt. This is why things change. In Coach's perfect world, he wouldn't have had to burn any RS because players would be playing to his standards and wouldn't be hurt. When, during the summer, Coach is trumpeting players' potential and improvement, he's doing so under the guise that they won't get hurt.

 

[John Galt]

Yeah.. Why is everyone seemingly conveniently getting a case of amnesia? Gray is hurt. This is why things change. In Coach's perfect world, he wouldn't have had to burn any RS because players would be playing to his standards and wouldn't be hurt. When, during the summer, Coach is trumpeting players' potential and improvement, he's doing so under the guise that they won't get hurt.

The part I don't get is how he's too injured to play QB but just fine to play WR.

 

[Formo]

The part I don't get is how he's too injured to play QB but just fine to play WR.

QB's take more hits in games than WRs. If it's any consolation, I don't like the thought of him lining up at WR until he's completely healthy, but it's not like he's playing every snap at WR, either.

 

[tikited]

The part I don't get is how he's too injured to play QB but just fine to play WR.

Trouble is that he isn't just fine. He looked terrible at receiver last game.

 

[Sportsfan24]

I have no problem with Nelson playing now if he gives them the best chance to win. My bigger issue is that Kill said MarQueis Gray could be one of the surprise players in the entire country this summer. We read endless articles on how much he had improved and his development at QB, he just needed the reps and a cohesive coaching staff. So now, 6 games in he's been moved back to WR? That's the head-scratcher...

My intelligence was questioned (my wife does it every day) last season when I said the gophers would have been better last season under the old coaching staff. The primary reason I believed this was because they had no intention on Gray ever moving back to QB. They were grooming Parish to be the starter.

Parish would have benefited by having Gray and McNight at receiver, Eric Lair at TE and Duane Bennett out of the backfield. Instead we wasted 1 1/2 years figuring out what they already knew. Each one of those players abilities were wasted because they couldn't throw the ball to themselves.

I love Gray as a football player and I believe the previous staff deserves criticism in regard to Grays development or lack there of. But Kill deserves his share of the blame for were this team is today. He can't push it all to the previous staff...especially when he is arriving at the same conclusion 1 year and half later.

Now with that said; if this is the worst mistake Kill makes as a coach, the gophers may exceed the Mason years in 3 or 4 years.

 

[MNVCGUY]

My intelligence was questioned (my wife does it every day) last season when I said the gophers would have been better last season under the old coaching staff. The primary reason I believed this was because they had no intention on Gray ever moving back to QB. They were grooming Parish to be the starter.

Parish would have benefited by having Gray and McNight at receiver, Eric Lair at TE and Duane Bennett out of the backfield. Instead we wasted 1 1/2 years figuring out what they already knew. Each one of those players abilities were wasted because they couldn't throw the ball to themselves.

I love Gray as a football player and I believe the previous staff deserves criticism in regard to Grays development or lack there of. But Kill deserves his share of the blame for were this team is today. He can't push it all to the previous staff...especially when he is arriving at the same conclusion 1 year and half later.

Now with that said; if this is the worst mistake Kill makes as a coach, the gophers may exceed the Mason years in 3 or 4 years.

I'm right with you in what happened in the early part of last year. I absolutely think the old staff would have gotten off to a far better start and would not have gone 1-3 in the non-conf portion of the schedule. It took Kill a while to figure out how to use the players on the roster and some of those early loses would not have happened later in the season.

That is why I don't see 4-3 now as a true improvement over 3-9 last year. With some better coaching early in the year that could have been a 5-7 team last season, still not good but certainly better then it played early. It is also for that reason that I won't consider this season a success if we don't win at least 2 conference games this year, even with all the built in excuses about youth and injuries....

 

[Lakeville Goldy]

I was surprised at the decision but not disappointed considering the situation. Really, am I that concerned about the 2016 QB situation this year??? That implies it would be impossible to get another QB next year or the year after to take over. I wish they could have saved it, but the reality is it will work itself out. Someone will step up and take over when Nelson is gone, whether it's 2015 (because he declares early for the NFL draft), 2016 or 2017.