Different Opinion on Nelsons Redshirt

[kuhlmanalex]

After reading a few different threads on here I think I may feel differently about not redshirting Nelson than the majority. In my opinion, as long as Nelson is the starter for the rest of the year, I don't think it was a mistake by Kill. He will get 6 or 7 games of good experience which could prove beneficial to him and the team for next year. I would be against it if it were week 10 or something, but I think a chance of 7 games of starting and playing every down (avoiding injury) is enough playing time to warrant playing him.

As far as the people that don't understand why, if he gives us a better chance of winning, we didn't start him as soon as Gray went down. Just my opinion, but perhaps they thought that Shortell would be better than he was. It seems like Shortell plays well when coming in as a replacement but isn't ready to be a full time starter in the Big 10.

Also, as far as Gray not being happy about it...I want all of our players to be happy, but if Kill thinks we have a better chance at winning having Nelson at QB and Gray at WR then thats what he has to do. I'm sure there are a number of players that aren't happy with the playing time they are getting (Gillum comes to mind...and perhaps Edwards wasn't happy with his move to LB, I don't know either way). I would guess if given the choice of being the starting WR and backup QB or just being the backup QB, Gray would be happy to run some routes.

Just my two cents...I know a lot of people really wanted to RS Nelson (and in an ideal circumstance I wanted him to as well) but it just seems like many people are acting like its for one game or something. There is a lot of season left and a lot of experience to gain from this season.

Sorry if this is a bit choppy or something, but I am attempting to have a conversation with my wife while I type!

 

[Dr.Don]

"Sorry if this is a bit choppy or something, but I am attempting to have a conversation with my wife while I type! "

You are a shining example of being good at multitasking.

 

[EG#9]

I don't necessarily disagree with lifting the redshirt, but I do find it inconsistent with previous statements from Coach Kill. The bigger concern for me is running the ball 16 times with a true freshman QB. I have my doubts that any QB can run the ball that many times consistently in the BIG and make it out of a season healthy.

I think MarQueis has represent the University well, but his feelings can't be put ahead of what is best for the team. Just like in the case of Weber over Gray, I trust that any coaching staff will play the player they feel will help them win the most games.

 

[LesBolstad]

The bottom line is that the NC debacle forced Jerr's hand and he knows he'd better go 4-0 pre B10 and win at least 2 B10 games next year. And the only way to do that is get Nelly some experience this year. In essence, we are already playing for next year; which sucks for the fans (and the seniors).

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

The bottom line is that the NC debacle forced Jerr's hand and he knows he'd better go 4-0 pre B10 and win at least 2 B10 games next year. And the only way to do that is get Nelly some experience this year. In essence, we are already playing for next year; which sucks for the fans (and the seniors).

You honestly think that the 1 day minimal bump in coverage over Nelson starting was the reason that Kill burned a RS? That would be insanely stupid and I hope to god that had nothing to do with his decision. I doubt anyone who can tie their own shoes would implement that strategy so I doubt it had anything to do with the non-conference.

 

[Gopher Bandanna Guy]

I've had 24 hours to mull over the loss of Nelson's redshirt, and I'm still not happy about it. But his play at Wisconsin was encouraging, and I can't complain about that.

What's done is done. The Gophs have to move forward now into the Philip Nelson Era, and with MarQueis back at WR - which is probably the best for him to highlight his NFL skill set, as he was never going to be a signal caller in the pros.

 

[LesBolstad]

You honestly think that the 1 day minimal bump in coverage over Nelson starting was the reason that Kill burned a RS? That would be insanely stupid and I hope to god that had nothing to do with his decision. I doubt anyone who can tie their own shoes would implement that strategy so I doubt it had anything to do with the non-conference.

Yes, the NC 800K payment was so insanely stupid I currently have no confidence in Kill or Teague. Hope I am proven wrong. But nothing this program does surprises me, and I've had season tickets over 25 years.

 

[minibeaver]

I was taken back at first too, mostly due to it appearing as desperation? Also it reminded me of the overall indecisiveness of Brewster and I got jumpy. Having a few days to drink on it has taken the edge off, along with the educated opinion of GH'ers believing this may be good considering he's the only QB of the 3 specifically recruited for this system. On the other hand, I think Nelson and the other true freshmen who lost their redshirts would have had more success in their fifth year senior season than anything they could accomplish this year.

I'm in this thing for the long haul and I was willing to sit through another rough year in order to give our true freshman the best chance to succeed. Unfortunately, the negative media and fan base are quick to jump ship, and Kill may be straying from the "build a program" game plan to ease criticism now. I hope I'm wrong about that, but burning redshirts like it's going outta style doesn't seem to fit that recipe.

Build your program Coach, the fair weather fans will come back when the team starts winning.

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

The bottom line is that the NC debacle forced Jerr's hand and he knows he'd better go 4-0 pre B10 and win at least 2 B10 games next year. And the only way to do that is get Nelly some experience this year. In essence, we are already playing for next year; which sucks for the fans (and the seniors).

Well, first I've heard mentioned of this angle Les. Kill still has a chance to accomplish the 4-0, 2 B10 wins this year.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Kill burning his redshirt at this point reeks of desperation and short sightedness. On one hand he is telling the fans to be patient and then he does this? What's the urgency?

Prior to this decision I thought a 4 or 5 win season was good enough. Now? Kill must get this team to a bowl game for me to consider the season a success. Why? If he Nelson is going to lose half of a season, if Gray is going to have to make a position switch in the middle of the season his senior year (yep, that'll be next) and If Shortel is going to have to transfer (you don't really think he is going to sit the rest of his college career) then I'm raising my expectations of Kill (I'm sure that scares him!).

Pulling Nelsons redshirt in the middle of the season reeks of my guy Brewster installing a new offense every season....no plan or/no conviction to the plan. This is unacceptable for what is supposed to be an experienced coach. And don't even get me started on how unfair this is to the players.

He inserted Gray into the starting position (versus having him compete), he inserted Shortel into the backup position (versus having him compete) and now he inserts a
3rd team freshman into the starting position? Hey coach; if you allow the players to actually compete and win a starting position in practice maybe you might get the best one on the field and the best one lined up as the back up....I'm just saying.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Yes, the NC 800K payment was so insanely stupid I currently have no confidence in Kill or Teague. Hope I am proven wrong. But nothing this program does surprises me, and I've had season tickets over 25 years.

Well, like I said, if the non-conference issue had anything to do with him choosing a QB this week, that is one of the single dumbest things ever done in college coaching. I really doubt a functioning member of society would come up with that idea.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

He inserted Gray into the starting position (versus having him compete), he inserted Shortel into the backup position (versus having him compete) and now he inserts a
3rd team freshman into the starting position? Hey coach; if you allow the players to actually compete and win a starting position in practice maybe you might get the best one on the field and the best one lined up as the back up....I'm just saying.

I don't think it's unfair to the players. I think you play who gives you the best chance of turning the program around. It's unfortunate for some of the older players, but if you're a FR and it makes you a better team in 2014, it's helping those guys. It's just one of those unfortunate casualities of a rebuilding team.

As far as not having players earn their jobs. I only know what I've seen and you could very easily be privy to a lot of which I have no clue. However, I think it was pretty clear that Gray was/is our best option at QB at the beginning of both last season and this season. I thought the competition between Max and Nelson seemed pretty close, but the tie will always go to RSing a player. I can't think of any other position where I thought that the better player wasn't playing in Kill's time here...

Maybe Michael Carter last year, but that was discipline issues.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

Lets not forget Nelson was on campus for Spring Ball. That is a colossal difference from playing a QB that just walked onto campus in August. He's ad time to earn and adjust.

For the life of me, I don't know why people are so up in arms about this and so deathly concerned ver who the starter for the 2016 season will be.

One more thing to consider; it's not like these decisions are forced on the players. Position changes, red shirting, etc. They are fully involved in the process. I think we can lay aside the notion that these guys are victims of some sort, with no say in the moves. That's nonsense.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I don't necessarily disagree with lifting the redshirt, but I do find it inconsistent with previous statements from Coach Kill. The bigger concern for me is running the ball 16 times with a true freshman QB. I have my doubts that any QB can run the ball that many times consistently in the BIG and make it out of a season healthy.

I think MarQueis has represent the University well, but his feelings can't be put ahead of what is best for the team. Just like in the case of Weber over Gray, I trust that any coaching staff will play the player they feel will help them win the most games.

I honestly wouldn't mind that many carries if the other guys had about 30. The problem I had with Saturday was that Nelson had over half the carries.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Kill burning his redshirt at this point reeks of desperation and short sightedness. On one hand he is telling the fans to be patient and then he does this? What's the urgency?

Prior to this decision I thought a 4 or 5 win season was good enough. Now? Kill must get this team to a bowl game for me to consider the season a success. Why? If he Nelson is going to lose half of a season, if Gray is going to have to make a position switch in the middle of the season his senior year (yep, that'll be next) and If Shortel is going to have to transfer (you don't really think he is going to sit the rest of his college career) then I'm raising my expectations of Kill (I'm sure that scares him!).

Pulling Nelsons redshirt in the middle of the season reeks of my guy Brewster installing a new offense every season....no plan or/no conviction to the plan. This is unacceptable for what is supposed to be an experienced coach. And don't even get me started on how unfair this is to the players.

He inserted Gray into the starting position (versus having him compete), he inserted Shortel into the backup position (versus having him compete) and now he inserts a
3rd team freshman into the starting position? Hey coach; if you allow the players to actually compete and win a starting position in practice maybe you might get the best one on the field and the best one lined up as the back up....I'm just saying.

Things changed with Gray got hurt. If Gray stays healthy, I don't think Shortell or Nelson play at all. You have to alter the plan when injuries happen. They did what they felt gave them the best chance to win. How is that not fair to the players? You'd think it would be more unfair to the players if you didn't do whatever you felt gave you the best chance to win.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Lets not forget Nelson was on campus for Spring Ball. That is a colossal difference from playing a QB that just walked onto campus in August. He's ad time to earn and adjust.

For the life of me, I don't know why people are so up in arms about this and so deathly concerned ver who the starter for the 2016 season will be.

One more thing to consider; it's not like these decisions are forced on the players. Position
changes, red shirting, etc. They are fully involved in the process. I think we can lay aside the
notion that these guys are victims of some sort, with no say in the moves. That's nonsense.

The head coach has the final say in whether you play or don't play; it wouldn't be a good career move to say no if asked to play. It's not as Mayberry as you believe. If a player is not perceived as a "team" player there can negative repercussions.

Also; there is no chance what so ever that Nelson will go back to the bench this year regardless how he plays because he gave up his red shirt.....don't think for a minute players won't be upset with this arrangement.

 

[WHB Brewer]

Kill burning his redshirt at this point reeks of desperation and short sightedness. On one hand he is telling the fans to be patient and then he does this? What's the urgency?

Prior to this decision I thought a 4 or 5 win season was good enough. Now? Kill must get this team to a bowl game for me to consider the season a success. Why? If he Nelson is going to lose half of a season, if Gray is going to have to make a position switch in the middle of the season his senior year (yep, that'll be next) and If Shortel is going to have to transfer (you don't really think he is going to sit the rest of his college career) then I'm raising my expectations of Kill (I'm sure that scares him!).

Pulling Nelsons redshirt in the middle of the season reeks of my guy Brewster installing a new offense every season....no plan or/no conviction to the plan. This is unacceptable for what is supposed to be an experienced coach. And don't even get me started on how unfair this is to the players.

He inserted Gray into the starting position (versus having him compete), he inserted Shortel into the backup position (versus having him compete) and now he inserts a
3rd team freshman into the starting position? Hey coach; if you allow the players to actually compete and win a starting position in practice maybe you might get the best one on the field and the best one lined up as the back up....I'm just saying.

What was Kill supposed to do? Gray was hurt and Max was hurt. Neither could play. He had no choice but to play Nelson this week. Once the RS was burned, he might as well play him the remainder of the year. It is not unfair to anyone. Gray had his shot, but can't stay healthy. 2yrs in a row. Shortell had his shot and was not very consistent, then he got hurt. Next man up, same as it has been at all positions.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Things changed with Gray got hurt. If Gray stays healthy, I don't think Shortell or Nelson play at all. You have to alter the plan when injuries happen. They did what they felt gave them the best chance to win. How is that not fair to the players? You'd think it would be more unfair to the players if you didn't do whatever you felt gave you the best chance to win.

What the coaches think has lost some credibility with me. They thought Shortell was their 2nd best option coming out of spring and all camp. They thought Nelson should be red shirted. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't be flexible if they feel they need to go in a different direction but pulling a redshirt like this raises red flags for me.

 

[John Galt]

Do we know for a fact that both Gray and Shortell weren't healthy enought to play QB?

 

[Dr.Don]

Do we know for a fact that both Gray and Shortell weren't healthy enought to play QB?

If we knew the actual facts, there would then be no discussion and/or speculation on GH.

 

[Sportsfan24]

I don't think it's unfair to the players. I think you play who gives you the best chance of turning the program around. It's unfortunate for some of the older players, but if you're a FR and it makes you a better team in 2014, it's helping those guys. It's just one of those unfortunate casualities of a rebuilding team.

As far as not having players earn their jobs. I only know what I've seen and you could very easily be privy to a lot of which I have no clue. However, I think it was pretty clear that Gray was/is our best option at QB at the beginning of both last season and this season. I thought the competition between Max and Nelson seemed pretty close, but the tie will always go to RSing a player. I can't think of any other position where I thought that the better player wasn't playing in Kill's time here...

Maybe Michael Carter last year, but that was discipline issues.

It's unfair to put a player on the spot by asking him to remove his redshirt in the middle of his true freshmen season when there or equal options. If Gray is our best option it's unfair to ask him to share playing time when he returns because they committed to play the freshmen because they pulled his redshirt; not mention the other players who also must endure playing with the 2nd best QB because the coaches are playing him instead of the best option because of the coaches decision.

With that being said, that's why Kill gets the big bucks because he has to make these type of decisions. You make a great point about the caualties of building a program, sometimes there is just no way around them.

 

[GophersInIowa]

What the coaches think has lost some credibility with me. They thought Shortell was their 2nd best option coming out of spring and all camp. They thought Nelson should be red shirted. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't be flexible if they feel they need to go in a different direction but pulling a redshirt like this raises red flags for me.

Do you think it is possible that Shortell was the 2nd best option during the spring and fall camp? Do you also think it is possible that Nelson, a freshmen, improved during the past two months to where he moved ahead of Shortell? He is a freshman and it may have just taken him some time to get comfortable with everything. It's not uncommon at all.

 

[MrC]

What was Kill supposed to do? Gray was hurt and Max was hurt. Neither could play. He had no choice but to play Nelson this week. Once the RS was burned, he might as well play him the remainder of the year. It is not unfair to anyone. Gray had his shot, but can't stay healthy. 2yrs in a row. Shortell had his shot and was not very consistent, then he got hurt. Next man up, same as it has been at all positions.

While I think they could have limped through the Wisconson game without burning Phil's redshirt, given MarQueis's ongoing injury problem and Max starting to get banged up, perhaps the coaching staff determined it was just a matter of time, and Phil would need to play before the end of the year anyway.

If that was the case, sooner is better than later.

 

[Winnipegopher]

While I think they could have limped through the Wisconson game without burning Phil's redshirt, given MarQueis's ongoing injury problem and Max starting to get banged up, perhaps the coaching staff determined it was just a matter of time, and Phil would need to play before the end of the year anyway.

If that was the case, sooner is better than later.

if it is only about injuries, then they should have a third qb (Parish) or a fourth qb (Alipate). Hopefully Shortell doesn't transfer or we have no qb depth next year. Weber's toughness spoiled us.

 

[Sportsfan24]

What was Kill supposed to do? Gray was hurt and Max was hurt. Neither could play. He had no choice but to play Nelson this week. Once the RS was burned, he might as well play him the remainder of the year. It is not unfair to anyone. Gray had his shot, but can't stay healthy. 2yrs in a row. Shortell had his shot and was not very consistent, then he got hurt. Next man up, same as it has been at all positions.

Great question!

Here is my honest to god answer........I don't no, I'm only good at complaining, the answers will need to come from an actual D1 football coach.

The truth is I'm only pointing out the negative ramifications of Kills decision; there certainly are positives also.

 

[Governor Sibley]

Redshirting is not what it used to be.

Players often stop getting better after about 1.5 seasons of starting. There are some exceptions to that, depending on position. Offensive lineman usually keep getting better. Many skill position players do not.

But I also wish Gray had been able to play all year.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Do you think it is possible that Shortell was the 2nd best option during the spring and fall camp? Do you also think it is possible that Nelson, a freshmen, improved during the past two months to where he moved ahead of Shortell? He is a freshman and it may have just taken him some time to get comfortable with everything. It's not uncommon at all.

While it is possible; I seriously doubt the 3rd team QB; a QB who received few reps somehow impressed while scout team to the point of beating Shortell out. What I think happened is Kill decided that Nelson was his starting QB next season and knowing that he wouldn't have an experienced back up (I bet money Shortell transfers) decided to elevate Nelson now so that he has an experienced QB next season (pure speculation and conjecture oh my part).

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

The head coach has the final say in whether you play or don't play; it wouldn't be a good career move to say no if asked to play. It's not as Mayberry as you believe. If a player is not perceived as a "team" player there can negative repercussions.

Also; there is no chance what so ever that Nelson will go back to the bench this year regardless how he plays because he gave up his red shirt.....don't think for a minute players won't be upset with this arrangement.

I can't speak for the Gophers locker room but in my four years I can't recall a player not being fully on board with a decision on redshirting or a position change. Obviously those conversations didn't take place in the presence of the rest of the team. The most "persuasive" I can ever recall Coach being was with a few players that wanted to transfer.

I'm just saying I doubt these decisions are being made unilaterally, directly against player/family wishes.

 

[cduff]

I couldn't believe this at first, but after some time to think about it I have come around. Here is what I think must be happening.

1. Obviously, they must think Gray's ankle will not heal sufficiently anytime soon to allow him to stay at QB. He had 4 weeks off after the injury, but re-aggravated it after just a couple quarters of being back in. High ankle sprains can be nagging like that, so it wouldn't shock me if it never completely heals in the next 5 weeks.

2. That leaves Shortell. Between his inconsistent passing and concussion (which pretty much cuts out any limited running he was doing), it seems there is not much left for him to contribute at this time.

3. About running... Maybe they could play Shortell and not ever run him. Well once you do that, you are changing the offense to suit what he can contribute. If he was a great passer then yes, maybe you do that. But seeing how inconsistent he has been through the air, is it worth it to change the offense to something it's not, while at the same time have it be horrible? That is a lose-lose. By putting Nelson in you are running the 'real' kill offense which demands a dual-threat QB. This is better for the entire offense for this year, and especially going into next.

So in a nutshell, the coaches must think by NOT having Nelson in, you are essentially wasting the last 6 games of the season by running what is not the real offense with mediocre results.

 

[Sportsfan24]

I can't speak for the Gophers locker room but in my four years I can't recall a player not being fully on board with a decision on redshirting or a position change. Obviously those conversations didn't take place in the presence of the rest of the team. The most "persuasive" I can ever recall Coach being was with a few players that wanted to transfer.

I'm just saying I doubt these decisions are being made unilaterally, directly against player/family
wishes.

Moses Alpate quickly comes to mind, as does Mike Carter who was forced into a red shirt versus losing a year elgilblity.