Dienhart: Way-too-early look at 2018-19 Big Ten standings (#11. Minnesota)

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bizzle22 said:
The 2012-13 team was ranked in the top ten for multiple weeks and won a game in the NCAA tourney. We beat a bunch of ranked teams that year including the number 1 team in the country. That team definitely had Sweet Sixteen potential, if not more.

As far as expectations, we fired a coach after he went to three NCAA tournaments in six years and won a game in the NCAA tourney. We have been to one NCAA tourney in the five seasons since then. People seem to be okay with that. If that is not lowered expectations then I don't know what is.
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Additionally:
2009-2010 - We looked to be a pretty good team before Royce White was suspended for shoplifting and Mbakwe sat out a year for the issues in Miami.
2010-2011 - White transferred, Devoe Joseph left in the middle of the year, Al Nolen was hurt. That team was ranked 14th in the country before things went sideways.

Essentially, the same issues that haunted Tubby have haunted Pitino.
We lost players to devastating injuries: Al Nolen, Trevor Mbakwe (tore ACL), Austin Hollins (Eric Curry, Amir Coffey, Jarvis)
We had players unexpectedly leave the team/miss time: Royce White, Devoe Joseph, Justin Cobbs, Trevor Mbakwe (Reggie Lynch, Lofton, McNeil)
They didn't recruit enough quality depth to overcome those departures Maverick, Oto (Fitzgerald, Gilbert, Gaston, Bakari)

It is almost remarkable how the script for Pitino's issues at the U have pretty much matched Tubby's issues. It is strange to me that some people continue to give Pitino passes that they wouldn't have given Tubby.
 

Id echo what is being said about different standards for tubby and pitino. I was one of the voices who didn't want to hear injuries used as an excuse for tubby, and I hope I am being consistent now. One thing I am noticing across revenue sports, is that gopher fans seem willing to give a longer leash to a shiny young coach that they consider to be "high energy" than they do more seasoned coaches, regardless of actual results.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Additionally:
2009-2010 - We looked to be a pretty good team before Royce White was suspended for shoplifting and Mbakwe sat out a year for the issues in Miami.
2010-2011 - White transferred, Devoe Joseph left in the middle of the year, Al Nolen was hurt. That team was ranked 14th in the country before things went sideways.

Essentially, the same issues that haunted Tubby have haunted Pitino.
We lost players to devastating injuries: Al Nolen, Trevor Mbakwe (tore ACL), Austin Hollins (Eric Curry, Amir Coffey, Jarvis)
We had players unexpectedly leave the team/miss time: Royce White, Devoe Joseph, Justin Cobbs, Trevor Mbakwe (Reggie Lynch, Lofton, McNeil)
They didn't recruit enough quality depth to overcome those departures Maverick, Oto (Fitzgerald, Gilbert, Gaston, Bakari)

It is almost remarkable how the script for Pitino's issues at the U have pretty much matched Tubby's issues. It is strange to me that some people continue to give Pitino passes that they wouldn't have given Tubby.
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Excellent recap. Definitely similarities.

The main difference (so far) is 3 out of 6 NCAAs for Tubby, likely would've been 4 (2010-11 season absolutely) w/o the issues. For Pitino it's 1 out of 5, likely 2 (this past season) w/o the issues.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Additionally:
2009-2010 - We looked to be a pretty good team before Royce White was suspended for shoplifting and Mbakwe sat out a year for the issues in Miami.
2010-2011 - White transferred, Devoe Joseph left in the middle of the year, Al Nolen was hurt. That team was ranked 14th in the country before things went sideways.

Essentially, the same issues that haunted Tubby have haunted Pitino.
We lost players to devastating injuries: Al Nolen, Trevor Mbakwe (tore ACL), Austin Hollins (Eric Curry, Amir Coffey, Jarvis)
We had players unexpectedly leave the team/miss time: Royce White, Devoe Joseph, Justin Cobbs, Trevor Mbakwe (Reggie Lynch, Lofton, McNeil)
They didn't recruit enough quality depth to overcome those departures Maverick, Oto (Fitzgerald, Gilbert, Gaston, Bakari)

It is almost remarkable how the script for Pitino's issues at the U have pretty much matched Tubby's issues. It is strange to me that some people continue to give Pitino passes that they wouldn't have given Tubby.
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I was Tubby's biggest fan. He lost me when quality players such as Joseph, Cobb, Iverson left after being with Tubby a year or more. Pitino's players, in contrast, have stuck with him through good and bad. I think this speaks volumes. Also, Tubby's recruiting slipped - Pitino's recruiting slips his fate will no doubt be similar to that of his predecessor. As has been written countless times on this site, the importance of these two spring recruits can't be overstated.
 

ltf said:
I was Tubby's biggest fan. He lost me when quality players such as Joseph, Cobb, Iverson left after being with Tubby a year or more. Pitino's players, in contrast, have stuck with him through good and bad. I think this speaks volumes. Also, Tubby's recruiting slipped - Pitino's recruiting slips his fate will no doubt be similar to that of his predecessor. As has been written countless times on this site, the importance of these two spring recruits can't be overstated.
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I agree with you, I'm not advocating a coaching change. However, if we finish 11th next season, my tune will change. I don't care about the circumstances surrounding an 11th place finish, if it happens, I think it's Pitino's time. This, partly, will come down to those spring recruits.
 


ltf said:
Tubby's recruiting slipped
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Tubby's recruiting "slipped" - on paper. On paper doesn't always match the on-court results. Tubby recruited the majority of the Texas Tech roster that just went to the Elite Eight - none of them were highly rated, highly sought-after players. Pitino's recruiting has looked pretty solid on paper, and nonetheless it has led to 1 Tournament appearance in 5 years.
 

I think people are forgetting just how badly that 2012-2013 team underachieved. With the talent on that team, that was Tubby's worst coaching job while at Minnesota. Yeah, they upset #1 Indiana and the Big Ten was pretty good that year, but that team also finished 8-10 in the conference and limped into the NCAA tournament, where they faced a very overrated UCLA team. Tubby also started to get very lazy in his recruiting at the end...

I was 50/50 on whether Tubby should have been fired at the time. I thought he did a solid, if unspectacular job. But don't pretend everything was roses back then compared to now just because he barely got into three NCAA tournaments. A lot of players on this current team wouldn't have been here if Tubby was still coaching. Both Tubby and Pitino (so far) have sucked when it comes to building depth on their teams...
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Id echo what is being said about different standards for tubby and pitino. I was one of the voices who didn't want to hear injuries used as an excuse for tubby, and I hope I am being consistent now. One thing I am noticing across revenue sports, is that gopher fans seem willing to give a longer leash to a shiny young coach that they consider to be "high energy" than they do more seasoned coaches, regardless of actual results.
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In both instances Tino and Tubby failed to show they could get the most out of the least.
Injuries happen. Issues come up. What do you do with what you have?
In Tubby's case, he could not generate ball movement on offense. The team was easy to guard as the ball stopped being passed and then a desperation shot would be taken. Tubby's teams, however, played very good defense.
In Tino's case, he could not train his players to use back cuts and move when they didn't have the ball. He used the globetrotter weave, but his players struggled to know where their spots were on the court. Additionally, Tino had a defensive sieve and never knew how to improve it.
Tino's coaching career at UMN is on the line this season. He either pulls a rabbit out of his hat or he goes the way of Dan Monson.
 

gopherguy15 said:
. ... If my memory is correct, we didn't win a single game in February that year.
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The Gophers were 3-4 in February of 2013, including wins over NCAA qualifier Wisconsin (eventually a #5 NCAA Tournament seed) and #1 Indiana (ended up a #1 seed).

Your memory is off by quite a bit.
 



dpodoll68 said:
Tubby's recruiting "slipped" - on paper. On paper doesn't always match the on-court results. Tubby recruited the majority of the Texas Tech roster that just went to the Elite Eight - none of them were highly rated, highly sought-after players. Pitino's recruiting has looked pretty solid on paper, and nonetheless it has led to 1 Tournament appearance in 5 years.
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If memory serves, Tubby's last recruiting class here was Charles Buggs and Wally Ellenson. Alvin Ellis and Gavin Schilling were on the way when the plug was pulled. If Tubby could have made the elite eight with that group that would have certainly been more impressive than even anything that happened at Texas Tech.
 

gopherguy15 said:
I think people are forgetting just how badly that 2012-2013 team underachieved. With the talent on that team, that was Tubby's worst coaching job while at Minnesota. Yeah, they upset #1 Indiana and the Big Ten was pretty good that year, but that team also finished 8-10 in the conference and limped into the NCAA tournament, where they faced a very overrated UCLA team. Tubby also started to get very lazy in his recruiting at the end...

I was 50/50 on whether Tubby should have been fired at the time. I thought he did a solid, if unspectacular job. But don't pretend everything was roses back then compared to now just because he barely got into three NCAA tournaments. A lot of players on this current team wouldn't have been here if Tubby was still coaching. Both Tubby and Pitino (so far) have sucked when it comes to building depth on their teams...
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If you feel like a roster was so talented that it underperformed by "barely" making into the round of 32, doesn't the coach get credit for building a roster than talented? And isn't that still a better situation that building a less talented roster, but getting the most of them and still coming up short? I agree tubby didn't do as well as he hoped, but he definitely did better than pitino has so far. And I was pretty tough on tubby.
 

MennoSota said:
Go to the Football Forum to see lower expectations...[emoji6] [emoji41]
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Eh, not sure the situations are comparable. I think it's reasonable to give a guy a year or two to get his legs under him and get a few of his own players on the roster before expectations as far as W-L record come into play. But I'd be the first one to be calling for PJ's job if the football team isn't greatly improved from where they are now after year 5.
 

gopherguy15 said:
I think people are forgetting just how badly that 2012-2013 team underachieved. With the talent on that team, that was Tubby's worst coaching job while at Minnesota. Yeah, they upset #1 Indiana and the Big Ten was pretty good that year, but that team also finished 8-10 in the conference and limped into the NCAA tournament, where they faced a very overrated UCLA team. Tubby also started to get very lazy in his recruiting at the end...

I was 50/50 on whether Tubby should have been fired at the time. I thought he did a solid, if unspectacular job. But don't pretend everything was roses back then compared to now just because he barely got into three NCAA tournaments. A lot of players on this current team wouldn't have been here if Tubby was still coaching. Both Tubby and Pitino (so far) have sucked when it comes to building depth on their teams...
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If that amount of under-achieving is fireable, is that our standard for Pitino in year 6?
 



SelectionSunday said:
The Gophers were 3-4 in February of 2013, including wins over NCAA qualifier Wisconsin (eventually a #5 NCAA Tournament seed) and #1 Indiana (ended up a #1 seed).

Your memory is off by quite a bit.
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After I wrote that, I looked up the schedule, and then edited my posted. Too many concussions over the years I guess... haha
 

ltf said:
If memory serves, Tubby's last recruiting class here was Charles Buggs and Wally Ellenson. Alvin Ellis and Gavin Schilling were on the way when the plug was pulled. If Tubby could have made the elite eight with that group that would have certainly been more impressive than even anything that happened at Texas Tech.
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Actually, it was Alvin Ellis and Alex Foster in that class.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
If you feel like a roster was so talented that it underperformed by "barely" making into the round of 32, doesn't the coach get credit for building a roster than talented? And isn't that still a better situation that building a less talented roster, but getting the most of them and still coming up short? I agree tubby didn't do as well as he hoped, but he definitely did better than pitino has so far. And I was pretty tough on tubby.
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In that post, when did I ever say Pitino has done a better job than Tubby?

I wrote that because some people on this board were starting to make excuses for Tubby, just like those who love Pitino make excuses for him. I wanted to remind everyone that 2012-2013 wasn't a great year, like some were referring to above.
 




gopherguy15 said:
In that post, when did I ever say Pitino has done a better job than Tubby?

I wrote that because some people on this board were starting to make excuses for Tubby, just like those who love Pitino make excuses for him. I wanted to remind everyone that 2012-2013 wasn't a great year, like some were referring to above.
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We went further than we have 20 or 30 years (depending upon if you count the academic scandal years).
 

ltf said:
Giving a coach a pass for injuries is not allowed on gopher hole. He should have had similarly talented players ready to step in - definitely a sign of poor recruiting. He gets one more year to prove his worth and then he's out.
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I get that but if we are going to make blanket statements about Pitino or Gard or any coach. We need to look at all the facts if they are there and not just speculation. Gard will be there for years to come. Who says that Ryan is not on the hook for the roster! with misses in Illikanian, VanVleit, Thomas. I look for Wisconsin to be back in the top 4 again this year. Minnesota could be right there too.
 

Bigeddysprings said:
I get that but if we are going to make blanket statements about Pitino or Gard or any coach. We need to look at all the facts if they are there and not just speculation. Gard will be there for years to come. Who says that Ryan is not on the hook for the roster! with misses in Illikanian, VanVleit, Thomas. I look for Wisconsin to be back in the top 4 again this year. Minnesota could be right there too.
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Fair enough.
 

If Pitino can't get the Gophers into the tournament next year (assuming Murphy, Coffey, and all other expected players return and play most/all of the games) then he should be canned the moment the season ends and not a second later.

This past year frankly deserved it but he bought enough good will from 2016 and dealt with enough BS that another chance is warranted. None of us should be happy with his tenure so far, especially given the legit talent he's had to work with at times.
 

Bigeddysprings said:
I get that but if we are going to make blanket statements about Pitino or Gard or any coach. We need to look at all the facts if they are there and not just speculation. Gard will be there for years to come. Who says that Ryan is not on the hook for the roster! with misses in Illikanian, VanVleit, Thomas. I look for Wisconsin to be back in the top 4 again this year. Minnesota could be right there too.
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You said theyd be top 4 2017-2018 too. Got all pissy when i suggested their streak was in damger and touted pritzl as a better koening
 

gopherguy15 said:
In that post, when did I ever say Pitino has done a better job than Tubby?

I wrote that because some people on this board were starting to make excuses for Tubby, just like those who love Pitino make excuses for him. I wanted to remind everyone that 2012-2013 wasn't a great year, like some were referring to above.
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It was the best year I've seen since starting at the U in 2006.
 

I'm a big Pitino believer. But if the Gophers aren't in the Big Dance next season, keeping him can't be justified.

I'm convinced, however, that they will make the Big Dance. The roster balance will be better, the dead wood has been cast aside, and the talent is above average. And that just sounded like a description of Lake Wobegone.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
It was the best year I've seen since starting at the U in 2006.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree. Let's compare the two last NCAA tournament teams (2012-2013 and 2016-2017):

2012-2013: 21-13 overall, 8-10 Big Ten (8th place), lost in the first round of the Big Ten tourney, 11 seed in the NCAA tourney (upset UCLA in the first round, lost to Florida in the second round)

2016-2017: 24-10 overall, 11-7 in the Big Ten (4th place), lost in the semifinals of the Big Ten tourney, 5 seed in the NCAA tourney (was upset by Middle Tennessee in the first round)

Some might pick 2012-2013 solely because of the NCAA tournament win, but I'd take 2016-2017. I still wouldn't consider either of those years great.
 

fmlizard said:
If Pitino can't get the Gophers into the tournament next year (assuming Murphy, Coffey, and all other expected players return and play most/all of the games) then he should be canned the moment the season ends and not a second later.

This past year frankly deserved it but he bought enough good will from 2016 and dealt with enough BS that another chance is warranted. None of us should be happy with his tenure so far, especially given the legit talent he's had to work with at times.
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Very well said (all of it - not just the bolded part)! I can understand giving him at least one more year but what I can't understand are the people who talk so positively about him. His tenure here does not deserve that kind of admiration.
 

gopherguy15 said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree. Let's compare the two last NCAA tournament teams (2012-2013 and 2016-2017):

2012-2013: 21-13 overall, 8-10 Big Ten (8th place), lost in the first round of the Big Ten tourney, 11 seed in the NCAA tourney (upset UCLA in the first round, lost to Florida in the second round)

2016-2017: 24-10 overall, 11-7 in the Big Ten (4th place), lost in the semifinals of the Big Ten tourney, 5 seed in the NCAA tourney (was upset by Middle Tennessee in the first round)

Some might pick 2012-2013 solely because of the NCAA tournament win, but I'd take 2016-2017. I still wouldn't consider either of those years great.
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I would agree with you but Pitino benefited from extremely low expectations following the abysmal 2015-16 season. So, whenever a coach greatly surpasses expectations he's going to get a lot of praise. Tubby's final season suffered from much higher expectations. They went to the NIT finals (playing all the games on the road) with a young and injury riddled team the season before. When they added a healthy Mbakwe to that overachieving core and started 15-1, expectations were very high. When they folded like a cheap suit after that, a lot of people were disgusted. I know I was and that's why I wasn't sorry Tubby was canned despite his pretty fair overall record here.
 

Frank Grimey Grimes said:
Name the last time that people/including local media were as excited and had as high of expectations about a Gopher basketball season as they were before last year? Those expectations didn't just appear out of thin air...if last years team would have stayed healthy(including Curry) and stayed out of trouble, we had the talent to be a Sweet 16 team. I can't say I ever felt that about any of Monson or Tubby's teams.
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Ditto
 

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