Did Northwestern Basketball Run Off Johnnie Vassar?

[Winasota Gopher]

A lot of you seem to think that suggesting a kid go elsewhere is horrible, but maybe you should try to see this from a broader perspective. If a kid is awarded an academic scholarship but earns a cumulative G.P.A. of 2.2 after three years, should he retain his academic scholarship? That's about the equivalent of what Gaston has done, in basketball terms, over his three years here. In three years, he hasn't improved his game enough to even see the floor. Why should he retain a scholarship at a D1 major when that scholarship could go to a more deserving individual?

Would you be so sympathetic to an endowed professor who was brought in at a high level of compensation but proceeded to produce very little in the way of research over five years?

What's Gastons gpa?

You have an interesting point that drives at the center of "student-athlete" or "athlete-student" because gaston would lose his scholarship if he doesn't maintain the grades. But to suggest he isn't being a quality d-1 student athlete isn't true. By all accounts he's a fantastic member of the team, he just isn't good, which wasn't part of the deal.

 

[jamalo]

OK, he didn't have a choice with McNeil and probably not with Dorsey either. But the only player who hasn't received playing time that has lasted in Pitino's career here is Gaston. Buggs transferred, Gilbert transferred, and Elliot actually played quite a bit in Pitino's first year and even played a fair amount for the first half of his second.

Was Morris really a trouble maker? I didn't see much sign that he was.

And I'm still not convinced that Gaston won't transfer. There's still time.

Buggs earned his degree. No longer "running off" at that point as the commitment has been honored. Same with Oto. If Gaston wants to stay and not play, let him earn his degree IMO

 

[cjbfbp]

Buggs earned his degree. No longer "running off" at that point as the commitment has been honored. Same with Oto. If Gaston wants to stay and not play, let him earn his degree IMO

Let him earn his degree? Can he only do that at Minnesota? There are 350 + D1 schools, over 300 DII schools, and about 94 NAIA D1 schools playing basketball. All of them offer degrees.

Oto was hurt and Oto played a significant amount before he was hurt.

 

[cjbfbp]

What's Gastons gpa?

You have an interesting point that drives at the center of "student-athlete" or "athlete-student" because gaston would lose his scholarship if he doesn't maintain the grades. But to suggest he isn't being a quality d-1 student athlete isn't true. By all accounts he's a fantastic member of the team, he just isn't good, which wasn't part of the deal.

As a student receiving an athletic scholarship, he only needs to maintain a minimally qualified GPA. But, he's getting a scholarship to perform at a superior level in athletics. Since athletic scholarships are subject to renewal and not an iron clad commitment for four years, I would say that performance is part of the deal. The student receiving an academic scholarship has to perform above a minimally qualified level to retain the scholarship. I don't see why the same concepts shouldn't apply to athletes (just going to practice shouldn't guarantee four years of a full scholarship).

I like the thought expressed by one poster in this thread about the two year commitment that may be terminated at the end of that time without penalty by either party.

 

[die hard gopher]

Not necessarily. The more talent you have on your roster the less likely you need to
Run off players to complete. My guess is that this is most common on programs trying to climb.

I don't think Dorsey is a good example here. Appears there was cause for dismissing him. Most likely a decision by Pitino that he was the bad apple that was at the center of the disaster. I wouldn't call what happened to him running off.

There are two issues here that are getting conflated. No one denies running off. Also seems like no one is okay with what happened at Northwestern allegedly. If true Collins and Northwestern should be publicly shamed.

W

I'd suspect Dorsey was simply too embarrassed to stay at the U. Nate Mason said after the tape and suspension's came out that he was too embarrassed to even leave his house and whenever him and Dupree would walk across campus, they would hear people whisper about the incident and say "thats them." Neither of their faces where even in the video and it wasn't posted on their account. Dorsey's face was in the videos which were posted in his account so I couldn't even imagine what it would have been like for him to walking through campus after that.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

As a student receiving an athletic scholarship, he only needs to maintain a minimally qualified GPA. But, he's getting a scholarship to perform at a superior level in athletics. Since athletic scholarships are subject to renewal and not an iron clad commitment for four years, I would say that performance is part of the deal. The student receiving an academic scholarship has to perform above a minimally qualified level to retain the scholarship. I don't see why the same concepts shouldn't apply to athletes (just going to practice shouldn't guarantee four years of a full scholarship).

I like the thought expressed by one poster in this thread about the two year commitment that may be terminated at the end of that time without penalty by either party.

To be clear are you saying this is the way you want it to be or are you suggesting an athletic scholarship includes the idea that gaston must improve to a contributing level?

Gaston is likely as good as he was when he was offered his scholarship, not his fault he accepted it.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Let's look at the math. D1 teams can give out 13 scholarships. including a walk-on or two, most teams have 14 or 15 kids on the roster. 5 guys start. Most coaches run an 8 or maybe 9-man rotation. Some coaches may go with a 7 or 8 player rotation.

In other words, on any given D1 team, there are likely at least 3 or 4 players who never - or almost never - see the court. I suspect that when the scholarship players were recruited, they expected to play, and the coaches at the very least gave an impression that they would be playing. I can't imagine a coach telling a recruit "you're never going to play a meaningful minute in your career," and I can't imagine 99% of players being OK with that. Athletes are competitors - they want to play. That is why - as the article noted - up to 40% of D1 players will transfer at some point in their careers.

Now, are there cases where schools encourage, or at least hint strongly that a player should consider transferring? Of course there are. It doesn't have to be malicious. sometimes, things just don't work out. I suspect that the vast majority of transfers take place because the player is looking for more playing time, or a better fit with the coaches.

 

[cjbfbp]

To be clear are you saying this is the way you want it to be or are you suggesting an athletic scholarship includes the idea that gaston must improve to a contributing level?

Gaston is likely as good as he was when he was offered his scholarship, not his fault he accepted it.

Fair question. I guess what I'm saying is that if a kid, after some time, has not shown he can contribute at this level, I don't see a problem with trying to get him to go elsewhere. What I would regard as wrong would be pushing out a kid who has worked to improve and has shown he can make some contribution at this level just to get a kid who was a much better player.

I don't fault Gaston for taking a scholarship, or even for staying this long for that matter, but I wouldn't fault Pitino for trying to get him to transfer either. He could play at the DII or NAIA level without sitting out and that seems to be where he belongs anyway.

 

[jamalo]

I'd suspect Dorsey was simply too embarrassed to stay at the U. Nate Mason said after the tape and suspension's came out that he was too embarrassed to even leave his house and whenever him and Dupree would walk across campus, they would hear people whisper about the incident and say "thats them." Neither of their faces where even in the video and it wasn't posted on their account. Dorsey's face was in the videos which were posted in his account so I couldn't even imagine what it would have been like for him to walking through campus after that.

Dorsey I suspect has no shame unfortunately

 

[jamalo]

Let him earn his degree? Can he only do that at Minnesota? There are 350 + D1 schools, over 300 DII schools, and about 94 NAIA D1 schools playing basketball. All of them offer degrees.

Oto was hurt and Oto played a significant amount before he was hurt.

Missing the point; Oto and Buggs had earned their degrees. At that point there is no "running off". Would love Gaston to transfer but as much as there are some Clem haters on the board, he was frequently at Auggie Tech (when I was there) with Connell Lewis apparently trying to convince him to transfer down on multiple occasions but Connell never bit. To Clem's credit, he never ran him off as a result of that

 

[bizzle22]

Missing the point; Oto and Buggs had earned their degrees. At that point there is no "running off". Would love Gaston to transfer but as much as there are some Clem haters on the board, he was frequently at Auggie Tech (when I was there) with Connell Lewis apparently trying to convince him to transfer down on multiple occasions but Connell never bit. To Clem's credit, he never ran him off as a result of that

I get what you are saying. The school committed to paying for their undergraduate degree and that promise was fulfilled. I'd answer that with this question: Do you have a problem with Vassar being "run off" the team at NW knowing that the school was still willing to commit to paying for his education and let him continue to get the academic advisory services provided to athletes? In terms of his education he was no worse off. Basically the only difference education-wise was that he wouldn't be allowed to register for classes before everyone else, which is splitting hairs if you ask me.

 

[bizzle22]

Let's look at the math. D1 teams can give out 13 scholarships. including a walk-on or two, most teams have 14 or 15 kids on the roster. 5 guys start. Most coaches run an 8 or maybe 9-man rotation. Some coaches may go with a 7 or 8 player rotation.

In other words, on any given D1 team, there are likely at least 3 or 4 players who never - or almost never - see the court. I suspect that when the scholarship players were recruited, they expected to play, and the coaches at the very least gave an impression that they would be playing. I can't imagine a coach telling a recruit "you're never going to play a meaningful minute in your career," and I can't imagine 99% of players being OK with that. Athletes are competitors - they want to play. That is why - as the article noted - up to 40% of D1 players will transfer at some point in their careers.

Now, are there cases where schools encourage, or at least hint strongly that a player should consider transferring? Of course there are. It doesn't have to be malicious. sometimes, things just don't work out. I suspect that the vast majority of transfers take place because the player is looking for more playing time, or a better fit with the coaches.

Yea, I agree with the math there. Probably about 3-4 guys on a given D1 basketball team are on scholarship and play very little or not at all. I get that. But there are a lot of other factors there. You can probably also count 1-2 guys who are on scholarship, but injured. Like a Fitzgerald. And another 1-2 who are freshmen and aren't getting significant PT yet, but the coach still plans on having a significant role for them in the future. Like a Michael Hurt. You also might have a transfer who is on scholarship, but ineligible for that season. We had none this year, but two last year in Fitzgerald and Lynch. By the time you factor all of that in it is easy to see that having a guy on scholarship who is probably never going to have a significant role can be really detrimental to the team's future.

 

[cjbfbp]

Yea, I agree with the math there. Probably about 3-4 guys on a given D1 basketball team are on scholarship and play very little or not at all. I get that. But there are a lot of other factors there. You can probably also count 1-2 guys who are on scholarship, but injured. Like a Fitzgerald. And another 1-2 who are freshmen and aren't getting significant PT yet, but the coach still plans on having a significant role for them in the future. Like a Michael Hurt. You also might have a transfer who is on scholarship, but ineligible for that season. We had none this year, but two last year in Fitzgerald and Lynch. By the time you factor all of that in it is easy to see that having a guy on scholarship who is probably never going to have a significant role can be really detrimental to the team's future.

Well said! I think Gilbert could have contributed here but Pitino had four recruited scholarship players who were contributing little or nothing and Gilbert was the one marked as most susceptible to be nudged out and finding a home elsewhere. Fitzgerald, despite his greater record of accomplishments at the collegiate level, would have been a risk because of not playing for two years. Gaston has shown nothing but size. Hurt may be able to make a significant contribution in the future but his ace in the hole is that he, like Wally Ellenson, has a much coveted younger brother.

You are correct about having four recruited scholarship players contributing little or nothing being detrimental to a team. That was a ticking time bomb that finally exploded in the closing minutes of the Big Ten tournament semifinals. This team had no margin for error in its roster numbers and was very lucky to avoid injuries and other casualties to its rotational players throughout its entire regular season.

Norwegian's post seems to indicate that playing a rotation as short as the Gophers did this year is fairly common. I don't know of any commonly kept statistic to track that sort of thing so getting a decent sized sample to test that proposition would involve a lot of copying, pasting, and spreadsheet time. I decided to do that just for the top eight teams in the Big Ten. For the top eight teams in the Big Ten, the minutes per game (a regulation game is 5 x 40 = 200 minutes) played by the top seven players are as follows:

Minnesota: 190.2
Northwestern: 188
Michigan: 187.4
Purdue: 185.7
Wisconsin: 175.7
Maryland: 168.9
Iowa: 161
Michigan State: 159.4

The Gophers led the group in this number although Northwestern (Collins' lack of trust in his roster may show here), Michigan, and Purdue came quite close.

 

[GopherJake]

Interesting stats. Question - Do they account for OT games? We had several of those and if not, these stats are skewed.

 

[jamalo]

I get what you are saying. The school committed to paying for their undergraduate degree and that promise was fulfilled. I'd answer that with this question: Do you have a problem with Vassar being "run off" the team at NW knowing that the school was still willing to commit to paying for his education and let him continue to get the academic advisory services provided to athletes? In terms of his education he was no worse off. Basically the only difference education-wise was that he wouldn't be allowed to register for classes before everyone else, which is splitting hairs if you ask me.

I honestly don't know the details at NW but I can't see how that would be legit. I'll look into it a bit but my view is that coaches shouldn't harass in encouraging players to leave but once they earn their degree, the school and coach have fulfilled their commitment