Coyle’s order of operations

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golfing18now said:
You are right dpo! As you reminded us last year and the year Tubby was fired.....tied for the best years in recent Gophers basketball history. How do you fire a coach at that point? :)
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It's something you only do once. You would certainly never do it twice. That couldn't happen.

Plus, our current coach's last name is Pitino, so he deserves at least eight years, because reasons.
 

cjbfbp said:
Why should he get off so easily? He should have to suffer through the season like the rest of us.
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That's fine, but if Coyle has a feeler out, and the person has strong interest, and a deal can start being worked out now (in the background), I would say absolutely start getting to work.
 


We remember when the Gophers won 8 games right? Remember how many times that team got blown out? Remember who was on that team? An all timer PF, all conference PG and despite Dupree not starting all 4 years he was a key cog throughout on a pair of tournament teams...all underclassmen at the time.

Our three most important players (Willis is a better player but Carr’s more important) on this current roster have played a season and 9 games in their careers. There’s very few teams in the country that are led by underclassmen and are successful. As I said previously, there’s good underclassmen raw talent on this team...raw talent doesn’t always lead to on court success. Oturu’s got NBA talent, I think Carr and Gabe have all conference potential despite their rough starts to the season, Willis is an upperclassman but a good role player, Omersa’s becoming a good energy guy off the bench that’s becoming more and more dependable, you can mold Ihnen into whatever you want him to be and Tre Williams is a smart coachable player that should develop into a starter as an upperclassman.

Do these guys need developing? Without a doubt but I want to see us break the cycle. Let’s build toward something and sustain it instead of having a mass influx of players every couple years. The floor should be higher and the ceiling should be much higher than we’ve become accustomed to over the years.
 

GopherNuts said:
Do these guys need developing? Without a doubt but I want to see us break the cycle. Let’s build toward something and sustain it instead of having a mass influx of players every couple years. The floor should be higher and the ceiling should be much higher than we’ve become accustomed to over the years.
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At the risk of pounding what might already be a loud drum, Craig Smith is getting A LOT out of a bunch of players he didn't recruit, this year at Utah St. And those players didn't do so well the previous years.
 


OK, let me temper the narrative of "he's getting more out of the players than the previous coach", a bit.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_Utah_State_Aggies_men's_basketball_team#Offseason there were 7 players who left the team from the previous season, and he brought in 4 transfers (3 JUCO), and 3 freshmen. No idea how many of those transfers or freshman are getting minutes.


EDIT: well let me keep flip-flopping here. According to https://utahstateaggies.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats, none of the top five minutes guys are transfers or freshmen.
 

LOSS! , WARNING! , SIRENS! , FLASHING LIGHTS! , KLAXON! , PEOPLE RUSHING AROUND!

You guys are so predictable. Didn't we go through this last year? Win = Silence, Loss complete pandemonium. So we are a couple of games into a rebuilding year after the loss of a few key players. I will continue from where I left off last year: You guys have to be the worst fans ever in the history of sports and are part of the reason sports in MN is so painful.

If he has a decent rebuilding year or better he is safe, if it turns into a complete disaster Coyle will replace him and then you will have a new person to panic about. I can support Coyle's likely plan. Can we get back to talking basketball?
 

MplsGopher said:
At the risk of pounding what might already be a loud drum, Craig Smith is getting A LOT out of a bunch of players he didn't recruit, this year at Utah St. And those players didn't do so well the previous years.
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I have not followed Craig Smith much or Utah State. Can he also recruit?
 




CPTMidnight said:
LOSS! , WARNING! , SIRENS! , FLASHING LIGHTS! , KLAXON! , PEOPLE RUSHING AROUND!

You guys are so predictable. Didn't we go through this last year? Win = Silence, Loss complete pandemonium. So we are a couple of games into a rebuilding year after the loss of a few key players. I will continue from where I left off last year: You guys have to be the worst fans ever in the history of sports and are part of the reason sports in MN is so painful.

If he has a decent rebuilding year or better he is safe, if it turns into a complete disaster Coyle will replace him and then you will have a new person to panic about. I can support Coyle's likely plan. Can we get back to talking basketball?
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Why are you here then? You know that Coyle and UMN decision makes don't actually care what message board fans think, right? We have zero influence. So why are you here lecturing?
 


CPTMidnight said:
LOSS! , WARNING! , SIRENS! , FLASHING LIGHTS! , KLAXON! , PEOPLE RUSHING AROUND!

You guys are so predictable. Didn't we go through this last year? Win = Silence, Loss complete pandemonium. So we are a couple of games into a rebuilding year after the loss of a few key players. I will continue from where I left off last year: You guys have to be the worst fans ever in the history of sports and are part of the reason sports in MN is so painful.

If he has a decent rebuilding year or better he is safe, if it turns into a complete disaster Coyle will replace him and then you will have a new person to panic about. I can support Coyle's likely plan. Can we get back to talking basketball?
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It's not about 1 year. He's 40-70 in B1G play entering this season, and that will be worse by season's end. One winning B1G season, and that was only 11-7. Two NCAA tourney teams, both ending quickly. Not one top 25 ranking at season's end.

He's had his own players for several years now. He will likely never have a more talented and experienced roster than he had last year, and he couldn't translate that into even a .500 conference record.

His teams are undisciplined, poor defensively, have historically shot poorly.

Can you point to ONE THING he does well?

Every day with Pitino as head coach is just prolonging the agony and delaying the inevitable.
 

CPTMidnight said:
LOSS! , WARNING! , SIRENS! , FLASHING LIGHTS! , KLAXON! , PEOPLE RUSHING AROUND!

You guys are so predictable. Didn't we go through this last year? Win = Silence, Loss complete pandemonium. So we are a couple of games into a rebuilding year after the loss of a few key players. I will continue from where I left off last year: You guys have to be the worst fans ever in the history of sports and are part of the reason sports in MN is so painful.

If he has a decent rebuilding year or better he is safe, if it turns into a complete disaster Coyle will replace him and then you will have a new person to panic about. I can support Coyle's likely plan. Can we get back to talking basketball?
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You are clueless. This wasn't supposed to be a rebuilding year.
 



He's witty and seems like everyone's friend, but they don't want to run through a brick wall for him.

You can have a down year, but you should at least fight.
 

Where are the true believers at? They would
GopherNuts said:
We remember when the Gophers won 8 games right? Remember how many times that team got blown out? Remember who was on that team? An all timer PF, all conference PG and despite Dupree not starting all 4 years he was a key cog throughout on a pair of tournament teams...all underclassmen at the time.

Our three most important players (Willis is a better player but Carr’s more important) on this current roster have played a season and 9 games in their careers. There’s very few teams in the country that are led by underclassmen and are successful. As I said previously, there’s good underclassmen raw talent on this team...raw talent doesn’t always lead to on court success. Oturu’s got NBA talent, I think Carr and Gabe have all conference potential despite their rough starts to the season, Willis is an upperclassman but a good role player, Omersa’s becoming a good energy guy off the bench that’s becoming more and more dependable, you can mold Ihnen into whatever you want him to be and Tre Williams is a smart coachable player that should develop into a starter as an upperclassman.

Do these guys need developing? Without a doubt but I want to see us break the cycle. Let’s build toward something and sustain it instead of having a mass influx of players every couple years. The floor should be higher and the ceiling should be much higher than we’ve become accustomed to over the years.
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I completely disagree with your assessment of the roster. Oturu is an NBA talent and all-conference level performer. After him, we don't have a single player that should be starting on a B1G tournament team other than possibly Gabe as a complimentary player like he was last year. Gabe is a good shooter, but he needs others to set him up. Carr has been probably the most over-hyped player in my lifetime. Is he even as good as IW?
 

MplsGopher said:
At the risk of pounding what might already be a loud drum, Craig Smith is getting A LOT out of a bunch of players he didn't recruit, this year at Utah St. And those players didn't do so well the previous years.
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Smith is also missing his highest rated player (the soph center) so far this year.
 

USAF said:
It's not about 1 year. He's 40-70 in B1G play entering this season, and that will be worse by season's end. One winning B1G season, and that was only 11-7. Two NCAA tourney teams, both ending quickly. Not one top 25 ranking at season's end.
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You mentioned some of the most important things but I'm going to add the following:

1) In three of his first 6 seasons, the team wasn't even good enough to get an NIT invite;

2) 2 of his first 6 seasons were outright losing seasons and one of those was among the worst in history;

3) Based on what we've seen so far, this season will be a repeat of #1 and #2 and will be his 4th season of playing on Wednesday of the Big Ten tournament.
 

PJ Fleck showed what a good coach can do in 3 years at MN, in a sport that takes a lot bigger of shift to make a difference. But Pitino is at 7 with serious signs of decline.
 

Pitino is in his 7th year and from the way its looking, going to enjoy another substandard season well below .500 in both big ten and overall record. It sure looks like Richard is going to end his 7th season at the U of M with 2 ncaa tournament appearances in those 7 years. Remarkably I got the vibe from some sports writers in this state, before the season, that this should be chalked up to one of those "off years" that just happens to good coaches. Problem is this is the norm for Pitino and no basketball fan of the U should expect 2 ncaa appearances in 7 years, 1 winning conference record in a season and 1 ncaa tournament win in that timeframe. I was a Pitino fan when he was first hired and through his first few years I chalked up some of the disappointing seasons to bad luck such as injuries, suspensions, etc. I was even willing to overlook to a point, the season 2 years ago with the Curry injury, the Lynch suspension and Jarvis Johnson medical issues. The problem is bad luck can be reserved for a few years, but after 7 years you make your own luck. Injuries you say? Recruit more depth. Freshman not ready to play? Recruit freshman that have the talent to play right away.
In an era of Minnesota basketball with state of the art facilities, a 10 year run of in state highschool basketball talent that hasn't been seen decades, there are no more excuses. In basketball you don't need 5 years or more to build a consistent winner like you see in football. You recruit 2-3 players a year, not 20-25. Football is the ultimate team game and needs so much depth of talent to build a serious contender, basketball you can get this done with 2 good recruiting classes. In football much of the depth is in the southeast part of the country, basketball you have all the talent you need right outside your front door. Everything Pitino needs to win is here and in year 7 it is becoming painfully obvious that the success we are looking for is going to be too little, and too far in between to justify. You often hear detractors say when a fanbase is calling for a new head coach "Who out there are you going to get that's better?" In most instances this is a valid point and the grass is not always greener on the other side. However, if your Mark Coyle, gopher fans, and the U of M are there many coaching candidates across the country that can't duplicate this success?
 

John Galt said:
Where are the true believers at? They would

I completely disagree with your assessment of the roster. Oturu is an NBA talent and all-conference level performer. After him, we don't have a single player that should be starting on a B1G tournament team other than possibly Gabe as a complimentary player like he was last year. Gabe is a good shooter, but he needs others to set him up. Carr has been probably the most over-hyped player in my lifetime. Is he even as good as IW?
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I agree, no one outside of Oturu is playing at a tournament team level right now but my post was about the potential of our underclassmen. Carr’s largely been fine for a guy probably still knocking off some rust. His biggest issue has been his shooting efficiency. Otherwise he’s averaging 13 points, 6 rebounds and has a 3/1 assist to turnover ratio (similar to Cassius Winston in that aspect). That’s pretty good for a sophomore.



The underclassmen will get better. They just need experience and better coaching.
 

I cannot buy giving this more time. Who on the current roster do you see being a starter on a top 4 B1G team two years from now? Oturu will be gone by then, if not sooner. Willis is maybe a starter on such a team but not the star. Carr? No. Gabe, same as Willis. Freeman, Greenlee or Williams? Probably rotation players at best. The two incoming recruits are promising, but hardly program changers. This team is bad, and if Oturu leaves, they will be even worse next year. Exactly how long are we going to drag this out?
 

Two ways a program can be successful:
1. Recruit the best players in the country (Duke, Kentucky, etc).
2. Recruit players who are good (not great), and coach/develop them to play your system successfully.

I'm sorry, but right now, Pitino does not seem to be doing either one of those.

Again, he's a likeable guy. But I watch his teams play, and I don't see "coaching" on the court. I see no discernible system, and players who- for the most part - don't seem to improve from year-to-year.

yes, you can say Curry getting hurt is unfortunate, or Coffey leaving for the pros. But, injuries are a part of sports, and guys jumping to the pros is a part of D1 hoops. When stuff happens, you need to have a Plan B. Pitino's plan B seems to be "throw it against the wall and see what sticks."
 

USAF said:
It's not about 1 year. He's 40-70 in B1G play entering this season, and that will be worse by season's end. One winning B1G season, and that was only 11-7. Two NCAA tourney teams, both ending quickly. Not one top 25 ranking at season's end.

He's had his own players for several years now. He will likely never have a more talented and experienced roster than he had last year, and he couldn't translate that into even a .500 conference record.

His teams are undisciplined, poor defensively, have historically shot poorly.

Can you point to ONE THING he does well?

Every day with Pitino as head coach is just prolonging the agony and delaying the inevitable.
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I'm not defending Pitino. I'm just pointing out that the same conversations were in this forum for November - February of last year. Same exact people, same exact threads. Bad coaching, never make it to the tourney, look at his whole record - replace him now - don't prolong the agony as we have no chance. Has there ever been a year where the patrick reusses that frequent this board dont say that ? No not since the early to mid 2000s. It was around then that the grumpy-old-men decided to spread their pain to the rest of us via this forum.

I can be on board with change in coaching but watch what happens after the change - I guarantee you that before the year is out 50% of the posts on the new coach will be negative. New coach will have some new condescending nickname from Reusse that people will use here. Nothing will change. Recruits and their families trying to take the temperature of the program will look at this forum to get a read and still see mostly negative stuff.

Its a part of the Minnesota psyche. Everyone is negative all the time until they win - then they are grudgingly silent. If they have an exceptionally good year, get really out of character and get passionate about whatever sport and we dont win it all they get embarrased and depressed and say "That's how it is in Minny - we always get screwed - we are cursed". OK Charlie Brown...
 

MplsGopher said:
Why are you here then? You know that Coyle and UMN decision makes don't actually care what message board fans think, right? We have zero influence. So why are you here lecturing?
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Isn't it obvious? I am trolling you and tikited and cjbfbp and the rest of the patrick reusse "hit and run" types.
 

GOH‘s you are overlooking the best candidate to replace Pitino. That would be Steve Wopo—- at Marquette in Milwaukee. Great x and o, recruiting connections. Everything Pitino isn’t.
 

CPTMidnight said:
I'm not defending Pitino. I'm just pointing out that the same conversations were in this forum for November - February of last year. Same exact people, same exact threads. Bad coaching, never make it to the tourney, look at his whole record - replace him now - don't prolong the agony as we have no chance. Has there ever been a year where the patrick reusses that frequent this board dont say that ? No not since the early to mid 2000s. It was around then that the grumpy-old-men decided to spread their pain to the rest of us via this forum.

I can be on board with change in coaching but watch what happens after the change - I guarantee you that before the year is out 50% of the posts on the new coach will be negative. New coach will have some new condescending nickname from Reusse that people will use here. Nothing will change. Recruits and their families trying to take the temperature of the program will look at this forum to get a read and still see mostly negative stuff.

Its a part of the Minnesota psyche. Everyone is negative all the time until they win - then they are grudgingly silent. If they have an exceptionally good year, get really out of character and get passionate about whatever sport and we dont win it all they get embarrased and depressed and say "That's how it is in Minny - we always get screwed - we are cursed". OK Charlie Brown...
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the best part is when we win here we have plenty who are just waiting for it to fall apart.
 

CPTMidnight said:
Isn't it obvious? I am trolling you and tikited and cjbfbp and the rest of the patrick reusse "hit and run" types.
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You are clueless again. I have been off the Pitino bandwagon for years now. I wanted him gone two seasons ago. I have history and statistics on my side. What do you got?
 

tikited said:
You are clueless again. I have been off the Pitino bandwagon for years now. I wanted him gone two seasons ago. I have history and statistics on my side. What do you got?
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Appearantly your attention. ... but not any comprehension. I'm not defending Pitino. Im just calling you guys bad fans. Try to keep up.
 

Minnesconsin fan said:
I told Tim Miles that I was looking forward to seeing him next year and he immediately put his hands down in a "Woah" motion.

I talked with his sister at the game in Sioux Falls and Tim definitely wants to get back to coaching sooner rather than later though.
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lemme guess, you wanted Monson the moment we lost to Gonzaga.
 

CPTMidnight said:
I'm not defending Pitino. I'm just pointing out that the same conversations were in this forum for November - February of last year. Same exact people, same exact threads. Bad coaching, never make it to the tourney, look at his whole record - replace him now - don't prolong the agony as we have no chance. Has there ever been a year where the patrick reusses that frequent this board dont say that ? No not since the early to mid 2000s. It was around then that the grumpy-old-men decided to spread their pain to the rest of us via this forum.

I can be on board with change in coaching but watch what happens after the change - I guarantee you that before the year is out 50% of the posts on the new coach will be negative. New coach will have some new condescending nickname from Reusse that people will use here. Nothing will change. Recruits and their families trying to take the temperature of the program will look at this forum to get a read and still see mostly negative stuff.

Its a part of the Minnesota psyche. Everyone is negative all the time until they win - then they are grudgingly silent. If they have an exceptionally good year, get really out of character and get passionate about whatever sport and we dont win it all they get embarrased and depressed and say "That's how it is in Minny - we always get screwed - we are cursed". OK Charlie Brown...
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I don't think anyone really turned on Pitino until year 5. The reality is that a move probably should have been made last year, but he did enough to survive.

I would grade his seasons:

Year 1 13-14: A. One basket away from the NCAA's. Won the NIT.

Year 2: 14-15 C. A step back, but understandable.

Year 3: 15-16 F. This was always going to be tough, but they should have won more than 9 games with Mason, McBreyer, Murphy and King on the team. If we had an AD in place, he might not have survived this and the off-court issues. I started to question if we should move on, only because I didn't see any way he would do enough in Year 4 to survive with a new AD. Alas...

Year 4: 16-17 A. By far his best team. Huge turn around. B1G coach of the year.

Year 5: 17-18 D. Yes the suspension and injuries hurt, but to some degree it was a calculated risk that Pitino took and it blew up on him. Also, again, even with the guys out they shouldn't have won as few games as they did in conference. But they had no depth.

Year 6: 18-19 B. Making the NCAA's and winning a game is great. But the reality is that if they lose at home to Purdue or to Penn State in the 1st round of the BTT, they likely miss the tournament and there's a coaching change.
 

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