Courts rule JUCO doesnt count against eligibility

[Lou Brown]

Wow! We need a thread here if we dont have one already. Not sure I love this. Sounds like Junior Hockey, where to even play in the MIAC you need a couple years in the NA3HL to make the squad.

I think this could help Gopher Football though the same way it helps your Minnesota State Mankato's and Quinnipiac's of the Hockey world compete for Natty's. Ohio State and Michigan are still gonna take the top preps, (just like the Fighting Motzko's do) while your middle of the pack P2 schools can play 26 year old men.

Interesting for sure. I'll hang up and listen.

Link to story

 

[MaxyJR1]

Do junior hockey players go to school? This would be a bit different if kids are actually getting generals done. A lot of generals are already done when they get done with High School these days. Going to have a lot of doctors playing football.

 

[FinnGopher]

Wow! We need a thread here if we dont have one already. Not sure I love this. Sounds like Junior Hockey, where to even play in the MIAC you need a couple years in the NA3HL to make the squad.

I think this could help Gopher Football though the same way it helps your Minnesota State Mankato's and Quinnipiac's of the Hockey world compete for Natty's. Ohio State and Michigan are still gonna take the top preps, (just like the Fighting Motzko's do) while your middle of the pack P2 schools can play 26 year old men.

Interesting for sure. I'll hang up and listen.

Am I hearing you right? A kid can play 2 years at a JUCO and still have 4 years of eligibility left to play at a 4 year institution?

Why would JUCO kids take any classes, unless they hope to leave the 4 year school with a Masters degree?

 

[mcrow47]

Am I hearing you right? A kid can play 2 years at a JUCO and still have 4 years of eligibility left to play at a 4 year institution?

Why would JUCO kids take any classes, unless they hope to leave the 4 year school with a Masters degree?

I think you only have to be enrolled in 6 credits worth of classes to play so.

 

[Lou Brown]

Sounds like its all being sorted out - but yeah you need to be taking classes at a JUCO in order to play on the team. Its a bigger, stronger, faster game - kid goes JUCO for 2 years, get stronger and more mature - goes to a 4 year as a better player and have 4 years to play.

Whats happened in hockey is even DIII schools are saying hey you gotta go play 2 years in Juniors because 4 other teams in the league are bringing in 21 year old Freshman and we need to be able to compete.

Same thing is probable to happen in the other sports.

 

[forever a gopher]

I think you only have to be enrolled in 6 credits worth of classes to play so.

You’re going to end up with a lot of guys like Brosmer and Russell Wilson while at UW that just take the minimum class load and are basically hired football players. If there was an argument that they aren’t employees, this kind of kills that.

 

[50PoundHead]

The suit has been brewing for a while and the temporary injunction will now allow Pavia to play another year. I think it is absolutely ridiculous and more than a lot of the decisions regarding college football these days, I think this one will end up being more momentous.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

I don't think this is a done deal yet. Pavia (QB now at Vanderbilt - formerly at New Mexico State where he played for Jerry Kill) - has been granted a preliminary injunction. in his ruling, the Judge noted that it's possible his decision could be overruled after a full court case or appeal. and the injunction as of right now applies to Pavia only - not to any other athletes.

definition of "preliminary injunction:
A preliminary injunction is a court order that prevents one party from taking certain actions or requires them to take specific actions before a final judgment is issued. A judge issues a preliminary injunction early in a lawsuit to preserve the status quo and protect the rights of the parties.

more from Sports Business Journal:
Vanderbilt QB Diego Pavia's filing for a preliminary injunction against the NCAA has been granted, giving him “an extra year of eligibility,” according to Aria Gerson of the Nashville TENNESSEAN. Per the ruling by Judge William Campbell, the NCAA's rules preventing Pavia from playing in 2025 “because of his two years at New Mexico Military Institute,” a junior college, “violated the Sherman Antitrust Act.” The ruling also “prevents the NCAA from enforcing its ‘Rule of Restitution’ against Vanderbilt or any school that Pavia might play for in 2025.” Gerson noted it means the NCAA would “not be allowed to force the Commodores to vacate wins or levy other penalties if the ruling is later overturned after a full court case or appeal.” The injunction currently “applies only to Pavia and not to any other athletes who attended a junior college.” Gerson: “However, the ruling seemingly opens the door for many more of these athletes, both in football and other sports, to challenge for eligibility” (Nashville TENNESSEAN, 12/18).

 

[mcrow47]

You’re going to end up with a lot of guys like Brosmer and Russell Wilson while at UW that just take the minimum class load and are basically hired football players. If there was an argument that they aren’t employees, this kind of kills that.

Yup. They just go to JUCO to get grades up, work on things ...ect and then go to college and take 6 credits of basket weaving sort of stuff.

 

[50PoundHead]

I don't think this is a done deal yet. Pavia (QB now at Vanderbilt - formerly at New Mexico State where he played for Jerry Kill) - has been granted a preliminary injunction. in his ruling, the Judge noted that it's possible his decision could be overruled after a full court case or appeal. and the injunction as of right now applies to Pavia only - not to any other athletes.

definition of "preliminary injunction:
A preliminary injunction is a court order that prevents one party from taking certain actions or requires them to take specific actions before a final judgment is issued. A judge issues a preliminary injunction early in a lawsuit to preserve the status quo and protect the rights of the parties.

more from Sports Business Journal:
Vanderbilt QB Diego Pavia's filing for a preliminary injunction against the NCAA has been granted, giving him “an extra year of eligibility,” according to Aria Gerson of the Nashville TENNESSEAN. Per the ruling by Judge William Campbell, the NCAA's rules preventing Pavia from playing in 2025 “because of his two years at New Mexico Military Institute,” a junior college, “violated the Sherman Antitrust Act.” The ruling also “prevents the NCAA from enforcing its ‘Rule of Restitution’ against Vanderbilt or any school that Pavia might play for in 2025.” Gerson noted it means the NCAA would “not be allowed to force the Commodores to vacate wins or levy other penalties if the ruling is later overturned after a full court case or appeal.” The injunction currently “applies only to Pavia and not to any other athletes who attended a junior college.” Gerson: “However, the ruling seemingly opens the door for many more of these athletes, both in football and other sports, to challenge for eligibility” (Nashville TENNESSEAN, 12/18).

If Pavia wins, it will no longer be limited to just him by the time the ink dries on the agreement.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

If Pavia wins, it will no longer be limited to just him by the time the ink dries on the agreement.

that's possible. All I'm saying is that a preliminary injuction is not - by definition - a final agreement. this could be tied up in court for a while. so until some final adjudication, Pavia is the only player who benefits.

 

[fmlizard]

P4 programs might use this to create farm teams of post-grad players getting 2 free years of development, then starting as a 21 year old freshman and playing until age 25.

This could be appealing for good but not sure thing, freshman starter prospects who may end up as professional college football players.

 

[Lou Brown]

P4 programs might use this to create farm teams of post-grad players getting 2 free years of development, then starting as a 21 year old freshman and playing until age 25.

This could be appealing for good but not sure thing, freshman starter prospects who may end up as professional college football players.

Teams are already doing similar stuff - NSIC Baseball program in MN that sends kids they like, that need more time to a JUCO in the area. Those kids still live on campus at the NSIC school while attending class and playing at the JUCO.

 

[hello-world]

It made no sense to have colleges giving scholarships for athletics and what we are seeing now is the inevitable chaos that resulted from that decision. There’s a good reason that the smart schools decided not to do it.

You can’t pay people (even in the form of scholarship) then pretend they aren’t your employee.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

The Fixer found a got dang qb!!! It looks like it was only at MN when he couldn’t land a qb.

 

[GopherGrit]

I read part of the argument the judge accepted is that going to JUCO isn't at all like having a true DI experience.

OK ... well .... doesn't that also hold true at NAIA? DIII? DII? Where does it stop?

 

[mggoph]

I read part of the argument the judge accepted is that going to JUCO isn't at all like having a true DI experience.

OK ... well .... doesn't that also hold true at NAIA? DIII? DII? Where does it stop?

Agree. This is all a mess right now and will probably get worse. College sports is done as we know it (has been for quite some time).

 

[Jeshurun]

8 years to play 6 here we come

 

[Strongazzoffer]

Do junior hockey players go to school? This would be a bit different if kids are actually getting generals done. A lot of generals are already done when they get done with High School these days. Going to have a lot of doctors playing football.

Most of them get their generals done. For example when the Magicians were playing in Richfield most of those kids went to Normandale

 

[MNVCGUY]

I read part of the argument the judge accepted is that going to JUCO isn't at all like having a true DI experience.

OK ... well .... doesn't that also hold true at NAIA? DIII? DII? Where does it stop?

The part in bold is the million dollar question. So much change happening in such a relatively short amount of time in the college sports landscape.....where does it all stop?

Seems like most agree that what is going on right now is unsustainable....but how you fix it or get to a sustainable model is the tricky part.

Saban talked some about NIL and all the changes in college sports on the McAfee show. Was interesting to hear his take on the players of today.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

8 years to play 6 here we come

Honoring the old NBA rule, 3 to make 2.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

This is one of those changes that in the name of giving some guys more time ... is just going to screw other players ...

SCOTUS should have been more specific when they made their decision, now every last rule change has to go through the courts / lawyers ... meanwhile players have an even MORE uncertain future.

 

[50PoundHead]

You’re going to end up with a lot of guys like Brosmer and Russell Wilson while at UW that just take the minimum class load and are basically hired football players. If there was an argument that they aren’t employees, this kind of kills that.

After I finished my undergrad north of Riverside Avenue and before I went to grad school south of Riverside I took a bunch of extension courses, some to fill some academic holes before I went to grad school and some just out of interest. I'm stretching the argument a bit, but the question of who qualifies as a student looms large here. How many credits will be necessary to remain eligible? Do the credits have to lead to somewhere?

We can joke about it, but if Pavia wins this case, I don't know on which avenue the schools and, by extension, the NCAA, can effectively respond. I realize I'm laying out a doom-and-gloom scenario, but this could result in what many of us have feared over the past few years: the transformation of college football into minor league fully professional football.

 

[MNVCGUY]

After I finished my undergrad north of Riverside Avenue and before I went to grad school south of Riverside I took a bunch of extension courses, some to fill some academic holes before I went to grad school and some just out of interest. I'm stretching the argument a bit, but the question of who qualifies as a student looms large here. How many credits will be necessary to remain eligible? Do the credits have to lead to somewhere?

We can joke about it, but if Pavia wins this case, I don't know on which avenue the schools and, by extension, the NCAA, can effectively respond. I realize I'm laying out a doom-and-gloom scenario, but this could result in what many of us have feared over the past few years: the transformation of college football into minor league fully professional football.

Not sure this case would do what you laid out in the 2nd paragraph. The main thing it would do would open the door for a number of current players to gain extra eligibility because they went to JUCO and it would also encourage marginal recruits to consider going to Jr. College and developing there without using up any of their eligibility.

 

[50PoundHead]

The question is clear--at least to me--is "Can the NCAA enforce any standards related to the term of eligibility?" The focus of Pavia's case is limited solely to him, but if the court rules in his favor there will likely be a blanket class-action and anyone in his position will be accorded the same treatment. The judge in the Pavia case says the ruling does not threaten the NCAA's ability to enforce eligibilty limts, but we've heard the same melody in a different tune with every decision affecting college football over the past five years.

Here's a Yahoo article that hits on some of my points: Pavia Ruling Article. What it boils down to for me is that when the financial aspect of all of this plays out, players will argue that eligibility limits prevent them from earning a living in their chosen profession and being a college football player is their chosen profession. I know that I am absolutely spitballing and painting the most dire picture, but the trend is in place. If the goal of college football players is to collectively bargain, a lot of things--including eligibility limits--will be on the table.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

The question is clear--at least to me--is "Can the NCAA enforce any standards related to the term of eligibility?" The focus of Pavia's case is limited solely to him, but if the court rules in his favor there will likely be a blanket class-action and anyone in his position will be accorded the same treatment. The judge in the Pavia case says the ruling does not threaten the NCAA's ability to enforce eligibilty limts, but we've heard the same melody in a different tune with every decision affecting college football over the past five years.

Here's a Yahoo article that hits on some of my points: Pavia Ruling Article. What it boils down to for me is that when the financial aspect of all of this plays out, players will argue that eligibility limits prevent them from earning a living in their chosen profession and being a college football player is their chosen profession. I know that I am absolutely spitballing and painting the most dire picture, but the trend is in place. If the goal of college football players is to collectively bargain, a lot of things--including eligibility limits--will be on the table.

I only play a lawyer on tv but when the NCAA decided not to fight anymore that uncorked all of the ramifications of the Sherman Antitrust act of 1890. Restrictions of trade, competition. The pro leagues are protected by congressional fiat or collective bargaining laws. Maybe SCOTUS or congress steps in on the side of the NCAA and schools, or maybe Bret Kavanaugh throws a Molotov cocktail on college sports.

Whatever happens, sports media are happy for the listens and clicks.

 

[50PoundHead]

I only play a lawyer on tv but when the NCAA decided not to fight anymore that uncorked all of the ramifications of the Sherman Antitrust act of 1890. Restrictions of trade, competition. The pro leagues are protected by congressional fiat or collective bargaining laws. Maybe SCOTUS or congress steps in on the side of the NCAA and schools, or maybe Bret Kavanaugh throws a Molotov cocktail on college sports.

Whatever happens, sports media are happy for the listens and clicks.

I don't even play a lawyer on TV (although I am an avid fan of the original Perry Mason and always used to listen to Point of Law during Steve Cannon's show on The Neighbor), but I've been around administrative law a lot during my career and while it's not apples-to-apples I've seen when courts try to limit application of a ruling, it usually fails and the effect of the ruling becomes universal. I'm curious about whether Congress would act. My guess is at the United States Supreme Court level, Kavanaugh clearly wants to decimate the NCAA and Gorsuch, while not being as ardent in his feelings toward the NCAA as Kavanaugh, would likely look at this in terms of market-based competition.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

this is another case where Judges are ruling based solely on the issue of ability to earn NIL and ignoring reality.

players go to a Juco for two reasons:
1. their grades are not good enough to be admitted to a D1 school
2. their football-playing ability is not good enough to earn an offer from a D1 school

either way - both of those are the player's responsibility.

so the player is essentially saying: I was too stupid or not talented enough to go to a D1 out of HS. and that's not fair, so I should get my year or years of eligibility back.

it would be like someone who flunks their driver's test - and then sues because the lack of a driver's license is limiting their job opportunities, so they should be given a driver's license.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Anyone remember what we used to talk about before all this NIL/Pay for Play legal stupidity? Did we actually talk about football? Seriously can't remember

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

The analogy I see here is the post-grad prep year which has been used by athletes (and many other students) for a long time. That didn't count against eligibility for as long as I could remember. I could see counting one year of JUCO the same way. Beyond that might be going too far.