Comparison vs 1988/89 Gopher Team

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Rouser

Rouser

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I think this years team, in terms of results (not potential for next year) is very similar to Clem's Sweet 16 team.

Sure, folks look back fondly at that team, as we should. But the truth is, if internet blogs and message boards, etc were prevelant back them, Clem would have faced heat as well. For every win against a good team (Illinois at home) there was a bad road loss to Northwestern. That year's Gopher team was 3-9 on the road, with two of those wins against Marquette and N.Illinois. The Gophers had lost their first 8 road games in conference and would not have received a bid had they not beat Ohio State in their last game on the road.

That team received an 11 seed. We upset Kansas State and were very very fortunate that Sienna, a 14 seed, upset Stanford in round 1. We then beat Sienna after they blew their wad against Stanford and got waxed by Duke in the S16. That experience proved valuable as obviously we went on to the Elite 8 the following year.

The similarites I see are the road/home record... very similar. This years team won a few road games out of conference and then won only 1 road game in conference. We played well at home and for the most part on a neutral court.

As for the final chapter to this season, I think we need a Sienna like upset of Florida in round 1 to advance to the S16, but stranger things have happened.

This post is merely a look back in time, not a pro and anti tubby post.
 

Rouser said:
I think this years team, in terms of results (not potential for next year) is very similar to Clem's Sweet 16 team.

Sure, folks look back fondly at that team, as we should. But the truth is, if internet blogs and message boards, etc were prevelant back them, Clem would have faced heat as well. For every win against a good team (Illinois at home) there was a bad road loss to Northwestern. That year's Gopher team was 3-9 on the road, with two of those wins against Marquette and N.Illinois. The Gophers had lost their first 8 road games in conference and would not have received a bid had they not beat Ohio State in their last game on the road.

That team received an 11 seed. We upset Kansas State and were very very fortunate that Sienna, a 14 seed, upset Stanford in round 1. We then beat Sienna after they blew their wad against Stanford and got waxed by Duke in the S16. That experience proved valuable as obviously we went on to the Elite 8 the following year.

The similarites I see are the road/home record... very similar. This years team won a few road games out of conference and then won only 1 road game in conference. We played well at home and for the most part on a neutral court.

As for the final chapter to this season, I think we need a Sienna like upset of Florida in round 1 to advance to the S16, but stranger things have happened.

This post is merely a look back in time, not a pro and anti tubby post.
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There's one very notable difference. The previous two years to the 1988-1989 season had been a complete mess due to the rape incident in Madison. In the two years after that incident, the team went 9-19 and 10-18 respectively and was squarely a Big Ten doormat due to the fallout. Then along came the 88-89 team that made it to the sweet 16 out of virtually nowhere. That team was predicted to do almost nothing during the season, yet made what was thought to be a magical run to the NCAAs. People were just happy to see a team that could compete again after the messes of the previous two years.

This team is nowhere near that. This team was expected to do very well and frankly fell flat on its face for most of the conference season. Completely different viewpoints. And also completely different situations for the coaches. Clem was brought here to rebuild the program and was only in his third year with clear progression being made. Tubby has been here six years and his teams have been stuck in neutral for most of that time.
 

To me, the big differences:

1. The 1989 team had a shooting guard who could shoot the lights out (Lynch) and a big forward who was as tough as nails and a tremendous rebounder (Coffey).
2. The 1989 team had six players who went on to at least a cup of coffee in the NBA: Newbern, Burton, Bond, Lynch, Coffey and Martin.
 

IMO these teams are not comparable other than conference road record.

89 team was not mentally fragile as this current squad is and completely different in basketball IQ.
 

Agree that their are some surface similarities in record, but as has been pointed out, that's about it. That team was the start of something; this team is full of seniors and the expectations were much much higher than for the '89 team. No one is looking ahead to next year and a big tourney run.

Finally, I have seen it posted here many times that we were lucky to get to the Sweet 16 because of Siena's upset. While true, that leaves out the fact that we did our job in round one with an upset of our own to even get there. In fact, Kansas State was one of only 4 teams to beat Oklahoma that year, the overwhelming favorite to win it all until they ran into Danny Manning in the championship.

None of that means this team can't make the Sweet 16, however...
 


Bad Gopher said:
To me, the big differences:

1. The 1989 team had a shooting guard who could shoot the lights out (Lynch) and a big forward who was as tough as nails and a tremendous rebounder (Coffey).
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Just looked back at Lynch's stats and was surprised how few three pointers he took. He only made 117 in his career and just 24 in 1989. For comparison, Andre Hollins has made 70 this year and 114 in his career. Andre has a much better 3-point % this year than Lynch did in '89, but Lynch was higher in FG % overall. Wouldn't you say Mbakwe has a lot of similar qualities as Coffey?

2. The 1989 team had six players who went on to at least a cup of coffee in the NBA: Newbern, Burton, Bond, Lynch, Coffey and Martin.
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I think there are five on the current team that could fall into that category: Mbakwe, Williams, Hollins, Hollins, and Eliason. And before anyone laughs at Eliason, consider his numbers are better than Martin's were through the first two years. He's a big man who can rebound and block shots. There's a chance someone will give him a shot.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Just looked back at Lynch's stats and was surprised how few three pointers he took. He only made 117 in his career and just 24 in 1989. For comparison, Andre Hollins has made 70 this year and 114 in his career. Andre has a much better 3-point % this year than Lynch did in '89, but Lynch was higher in FG % overall. Wouldn't you say Mbakwe has a lot of similar qualities as Coffey?



I think there are five on the current team that could fall into that category: Mbakwe, Williams, Hollins, Hollins, and Eliason. And before anyone laughs at Eliason, consider his numbers are better than Martin's were through the first two years. He's a big man who can rebound and block shots. There's a chance someone will give him a shot.
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Yes, but if Mbakwe compares with Coffey, then what does Rodney compare to? The '89 team had a true center (Shik) and Coffey, and so between the two of them, they licked the platter clean.

Funny about Lynch and the numbers you cite. I think there were fewer attempts for Lynch to take because you had more good perimeter options on that team (Melvin, Willie, Walter and a couple role players) than we have on this one. One way or another, Clem did refer to Kevin as one of the best jump shooters in the nation, which is more than anyone would say about this year's team's starting "shooting" guard.
 

Rouser said:
I think this years team, in terms of results (not potential for next year) is very similar to Clem's Sweet 16 team.

Sure, folks look back fondly at that team, as we should. But the truth is, if internet blogs and message boards, etc were prevelant back them, Clem would have faced heat as well. For every win against a good team (Illinois at home) there was a bad road loss to Northwestern. That year's Gopher team was 3-9 on the road, with two of those wins against Marquette and N.Illinois. The Gophers had lost their first 8 road games in conference and would not have received a bid had they not beat Ohio State in their last game on the road.

That team received an 11 seed. We upset Kansas State and were very very fortunate that Sienna, a 14 seed, upset Stanford in round 1. We then beat Sienna after they blew their wad against Stanford and got waxed by Duke in the S16. That experience proved valuable as obviously we went on to the Elite 8 the following year.

The similarites I see are the road/home record... very similar. This years team won a few road games out of conference and then won only 1 road game in conference. We played well at home and for the most part on a neutral court.

As for the final chapter to this season, I think we need a Sienna like upset of Florida in round 1 to advance to the S16, but stranger things have happened.

This post is merely a look back in time, not a pro and anti tubby post.
Click to expand...

Please. Your undying love for tubby is hard to miss.

There are very few if any simiarities to that team.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Yes, but if Mbakwe compares with Coffey, then what does Rodney compare to? The '89 team had a true center (Shik) and Coffey, and so between the two of them, they licked the platter clean.

Funny about Lynch and the numbers you cite. I think there were fewer attempts for Lynch to take because you had more good perimeter options on that team (Melvin, Willie, Walter and a couple role players) than we have on this one. One way or another, Clem did refer to Kevin as one of the best jump shooters in the nation, which is more than anyone would say about this year's team's starting "shooting" guard.
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I agree with your first paragraph. I was just saying I think Mbakwe player pretty similar to Coffey. Mbakwe does score more often though.

As for Lynch, I hope I wasn't making it seem like I was ripping on him or anything. Was just surprised he took so few three pointers. Only about 25% of his shots over his career were 3-pointers compared to Hollins who is about 50% and Hoffarber at about 70%. I'm assuming Lynch took a bunch more mid range jumpers.

And looking up the team stats, there were just less 3-point attempts overall. They shot just 8.4 per game back then and we're at about 16 this season.
 



BarnBurner said:
Please. Your undying love for tubby is hard to miss.

There are very few if any simiarities to that team.
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Wow, you don't give up. Whatever BarnBurner or ZTA, whoever you are..
 

scools12 said:
IMO these teams are not comparable other than conference road record.

89 team was not mentally fragile as this current squad is and completely different in basketball IQ.
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Ok, I love the Clem team, but how can a team go 1-8 on the road in conference and be mentally tough?

Also, I have been on record as saying that I am fine with Tubby being let go if we don't make the S16. My original post was designed to put some light on the fact that we always paint the back to back years for the S16 and Elite 8 run as glory years (in addition to final four). I was as pumped for that S16 run as anyone. However, that season was hardly great until the final run and even that included a huge break to get to the S16. 1-8 on the road (0-8 at one point)? That said, the team was together one more year which is what was promising. This year's team loses one key player (Mbakwe). As much as I like Rodney, he is not a huge loss.. a loss, but not huge. If we flame out and lose to UCLA, none of this matters.. but if we go to the Sweet 16, I will be pumped as it means we likely beat Florida and I will look back at this as good year. If we don't, I will look as another lost opportunity and expect that a new coach will be here next year (or next week).

Bottom line, this team is not a lot different than past Gopher tourney teams (outside of a couple years)...
 

GophersInIowa said:
Just looked back at Lynch's stats and was surprised how few three pointers he took. He only made 117 in his career and just 24 in 1989. For comparison, Andre Hollins has made 70 this year and 114 in his career. Andre has a much better 3-point % this year than Lynch did in '89, but Lynch was higher in FG % overall. Wouldn't you say Mbakwe has a lot of similar qualities as Coffey?



I think there are five on the current team that could fall into that category: Mbakwe, Williams, Hollins, Hollins, and Eliason. And before anyone laughs at Eliason, consider his numbers are better than Martin's were through the first two years. He's a big man who can rebound and block shots. There's a chance someone will give him a shot.
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I completely agree. I was impressed he finally started looking for his shot. I believe he is right on schedule to play in the NBA. Much better player than Martin imo.
 

Both teams were also coached by someone who's previous job was at a school in Kentucky.
 




Clem's teams are looked at much more fondly now then they were back in the mid 90s. We had a lot of good breaks in the tournament in 88-89 and 89-90. We almost lost in the first two rounds the Elite 8 season.....maybe to UTEP. The year before we made the Final 4 William arena was almost like it is for tubby now. We got beat by almost 30 by Tulane the year before our Final 4 team. A lot of 9-9 records and NIT appearances.
 

ethomasp31 said:
Clem's teams are looked at much more fondly now then they were back in the mid 90s. We had a lot of good breaks in the tournament in 88-89 and 89-90. We almost lost in the first two rounds the Elite 8 season.....maybe to UTEP. The year before we made the Final 4 William arena was almost like it is for tubby now. We got beat by almost 30 by Tulane the year before our Final 4 team. A lot of 9-9 records and NIT appearances.
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Life before Twitter, such a simpler time.

Did you also know that Michael Jordan never once missed a shot and every time he shot it was a game winner in game 7?

We tend to modify the narrative of the past sometimes ...
 

Rouser said:
Ok, I love the Clem team, but how can a team go 1-8 on the road in conference and be mentally tough?

Also, I have been on record as saying that I am fine with Tubby being let go if we don't make the S16. My original post was designed to put some light on the fact that we always paint the back to back years for the S16 and Elite 8 run as glory years (in addition to final four). I was as pumped for that S16 run as anyone. However, that season was hardly great until the final run and even that included a huge break to get to the S16. 1-8 on the road (0-8 at one point)? That said, the team was together one more year which is what was promising. This year's team loses one key player (Mbakwe). As much as I like Rodney, he is not a huge loss.. a loss, but not huge. If we flame out and lose to UCLA, none of this matters.. but if we go to the Sweet 16, I will be pumped as it means we likely beat Florida and I will look back at this as good year. If we don't, I will look as another lost opportunity and expect that a new coach will be here next year (or next week).

Bottom line, this team is not a lot different than past Gopher tourney teams (outside of a couple years)...
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Including a loss to Northwestern who won just 2 games in the BT and 9 overall. They also lost to a 6-12 Michigan St. team, 8-10 Wisconsin team, and 8-10 Purdue team.
 


I don't know about the similarities when you mention that the Gophers had to beat Ohio State on the road in their last game to get in to the tournament. This years team did everything they could down the stretch to NOT make the tournament. You mention the good break of not playing Stanford in round 2, but wasn't this also the year that Willie Burton had to play with a mask? Seems like that was a bad break against the Gophers and they still won convincingly twice before losing to Duke and Danny Ferry.

Hopefully this season can end like that one, but I disagree with the notion that the Gophers need Florida to be upset. The Gophers have lost to Northwestern, Iowa, Illinois (at home), Nebraska, and Purdue this year...most of those would be stranger than the former 8th ranked team in the nation beating the Florida Gators.
 

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