Compare and contrast 2009 (Jedd Fisch) with 2011 Matt Limegrover

[Oneoldgopher]

Expectancy theory predicts that people will perform better if they believe they are able to achieve what is desired, are allowed to do what it will take, if they want to achieve it, and, of course, that they know what ”it” is.

Does it take 3 or more years to teach Jerry Kill's playbook? Is that the biggest problem as far as time goes to get the program on the right track?

Now look at the so called discredited Jedd Fisch at Miami. Here is what the Sun Sentinel had to say about Miami and Jedd Fisch

"CORAL GABLES — Much-maligned senior quarterback Jacory Harris is enjoying the best season of his career, the Hurricanes' offense is averaging 30 points per game and the man behind the success is this ambitious 35-year-old whose path to this point started with a major risk.

Answer: Who is Jedd Fisch?

Fisch, the Hurricanes' first-year coordinator who introduced his own version of "Jeopardy" to players in team meetings this preseason, once photocopied and taped Jon Gruden's resume to his bathroom mirror and attended the University of Florida on the slim chance of joining Steve Spurrier's staff, has infused new life into an offense players say was too predictable.

When Miami plays No. 20 Georgia Tech at 3:30 p.m. Saturday at Sun Life Stadium, this much is for sure: UM's top playmakers will get the ball. Fisch will make sure of it.

"It's not an ego-oriented system," UM coach Al Golden said. "There's a lot of coordinators out there that would just say, 'OK, you're not going to get the ball today. I'm sorry.' But his whole philosophy on offense is players first, then plays.

"We identify who…are going to be the playmakers for us in the game and then he finds a way to get them the ball. The kids recognize that.

"The other thing is Jedd's very bright and he makes it fun for the kids. He makes it fun every day. He engages them. They've learned a lot, they've learned quickly and they're certainly responding."

Harris, who has 12 touchdown passes and just three interceptions halfway through the season after 32 interceptions the previous two years combined, credits Fisch for his dramatic turnaround, noting Fisch has helped him make better decisions.

"It's been wonderful, just having fun, just executing everything he's taught me," Harris said.

Fisch has allowed his quarterbacks to audible freely. He has also taken chances in his play-calling. Late in the game against Virginia Tech, Harris lateraled the ball to freshman receiver Phillip Dorsett, who passed to wide-open running back Lamar Miller for a touchdown and the lead.

He has used flea-flickers and bubble screens. Last Saturday at North Carolina, Fisch for the first time put running back Mike James and receiver Travis Benjamin in the wildcat formation. Golden said it will be used again in the future.

"They find ways to get me the ball," Benjamin said, adding that he feels he's been better utilized this season.

"It's like something new every week he comes up with," fullback Maurice Hagens said."

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...021_1_jedd-fisch-travis-benjamin-lamar-miller

So, did Jedd Fisch perform the job adequately enough to get his players to believe they could do the job, understand what it took to get there, and perform it adequately on the field to win half of their games?

And is Matt Limegrover getting his players prepared to believe they can win, understand what it takes to get there and perform it adequately on the field to win more than 1 game this season?

I think the contrast between these two is substantial.

The Expectancy theory as tested shows a positive correlation to success when teams believe they can do the job and are given the opportunity to do so. Whether it can deliver championship football results is not proven. But, I find that Jedd Fisch puts his Miami team in a position to win and they believe they can do it. I am not sure Limegrover is putting his players on the same path of belief, but I have no evidence that he hasn't tried to.

What are the differences between 2009 and 2011 that we can learn from and how should the Gophers approach 2012 learning from both teams?

 

[RodentRampage]

Who said it takes 3 years to teach Kill's playbook?

The 2009 Gophers under Fisch scored 272 points. That's the least points since 1998. That is more meaningful than comparing how Fisch's offense did in Miami. Miami was simply a better team than Minnesota. Miami won 5 games in 2007, 7 in 2008, 9 in 2009 and 7 in 2010.

You misunderstand Expectancy Theory. There is such a thing, but it does not deal with performance, but with what actions people choose based on what is expected. It doesn't claim that people will perform better at tasks if you keep telling them how great they are.

 

[50PoundHead]

I don't think Fisch is as bad as he was here in Minnesota, but it was his first year as an offensive coordinator and my guess is he left here with some valuable lessons that he's parlayed well at Miami.

He tried to do a lot when he took over here and the team was making a dramatic move away from the spread. I did think he put too much on the kids' plates, given the change in systems. I'd be curious to know what Adam Weber's perspective on this would be.

 

[gopherdudepart2]

There is two common denominators between 2009 and 2011 Gophers squad. The offesnive line was horrendous both seasons. Overhwlemed, getting tossed on there asses, constantly getting beat off the snap, double teaming or blocking down and not pickng up your own man or the blitzer. They also have two common occurences, not a lot of depth and a ton of injury's to key players that could have really helped the whole offense. 2009 we had a QB that could read and make progressions but had no time to hit the deep throws, or the crossing routes and longer developing plays that were called.
Now in 2011 we have a one read QB that has no time to make throws, and we are predictable, we run a lot of the same off tackle plays, no counter action, no backside screens, and the QB Gray his first instincts are to bail out and try to do everything with his feet. Weber did a lot of bailing out too but he did try to make some plays with his arm by staying alive behind the line of scrimmage and the guys would break off routes and come back to him. I know the line play is challenged but the play calling really has left a lot to be desired, this is not just execution the play calling has been as vanilla as vanilla beans can get, and entirely to easy to predict what defense to call. Hard to be creative when the QB has know time and cannot progress to additional reads and leave wide open guy's open a lot. The offense has left the defense out to dry so much this year it is not even funny.

Would have been nice to see what Weber could have done with a healthy Decker or a better offensive line like the early and mid 2000 seasons had. The last staff did Gray absolutely no favors by not giving him any meaningful snaps at QB. You could say Brewster was his own worst enenmy on this one. He saw the ability that Weber had in practice, and thought he could save his butt. At the same time Gray was his top recruit, best athlete he recruited and he wasted his time playing WR for a kid that always played QB and sees himself as a QB. He really should have let Gray play from the first year he was in the program and take his lumps with him then. If he had done that he might have actually gotten out of him what he could have and he actually might have saved his own butt in doing so. It would have been unfair to Weber, but it might have been better for the program to take your lumps early on and then go from there.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I never thought that our problems in 2009 were because of Jedd Fisch, just like the problems this season are not the result of Limegrover. It isn't easy for a bunch of college players to learn a new offense, especially when they don't have an offensive line.

Another part of our problem in 2009 was Weber was bad. He had a much better 2008 and a much better 2010, but I think even Adam Weber would tell you that he was bad in 2009. I can't really remember a ton of specific plays, but I remember Weber just not playing up to ours (or his expectations). This isn't to blast Weber, this year was the only one he was bad.

But when you have a poor offensive line and you can't pass the ball effeciently at all, you won't be able to move the ball or score very many points. Sound familiar?

 

[harrys ghost]

I never thought that our problems in 2009 were because of Jedd Fisch, just like the problems this season are not the result of Limegrover. It isn't easy for a bunch of college players to learn a new offense, especially when they don't have an offensive line.

Another part of our problem in 2009 was Weber was bad. He had a much better 2008 and a much better 2010, but I think even Adam Weber would tell you that he was bad in 2009. I can't really remember a ton of specific plays, but I remember Weber just not playing up to ours (or his expectations). This isn't to blast Weber, this year was the only one he was bad.

But when you have a poor offensive line and you can't pass the ball effeciently at all, you won't be able to move the ball or score very many points. Sound familiar?

Weber got the snot beat out of him in '08 (I remember multiple times where he was bloody after the game) and in '09 he was jumpy and kept bailing out on passing situations (the line play was not really all that bad).

 

[Oneoldgopher]

Who said it takes 3 years to teach Kill's playbook?

The 2009 Gophers under Fisch scored 272 points. That's the least points since 1998. That is more meaningful than comparing how Fisch's offense did in Miami. Miami was simply a better team than Minnesota. Miami won 5 games in 2007, 7 in 2008, 9 in 2009 and 7 in 2010.

You misunderstand Expectancy Theory. There is such a thing, but it does not deal with performance, but with what actions people choose based on what is expected. It doesn't claim that people will perform better at tasks if you keep telling them how great they are.

I said it will take 3 years to teach Kill's playbook based on his public expressions and the likelihood of getting better matching playes in his system. First, I am estimating the expectancy of getting better based on Kill's comments that it will take several years to improve the team. I take that to mean that not everything will be executed well before 2 - 3 years down the line when competency rises. So, the probably timeline for improvement is 3 years for full installation, and nothing is fully installed until it operates at or near capacity.

As for Expectancy Theory, there is nothing wrong with stating that if they make effective decisions, that their motivation will go up as the rewards come with the improvements. Nowhere did I say in my previous post that pumping sunshine into the players was necessary or even a part of the theory. Nice of you to bring that up, but I never said or implied that.

Motivation has been shown to improve productivity and results. Expectancy theory shows how proper motivation gets people to align their work motivation to achieve those results, so yes, the two go hand in hand. Expectancy goes a long way to getting discernible, measurable results. A motivating statement is not always positive, but more often is clarifying and instructive. "If you hit the whole more directly and with less hesitancy, you will gain more yards and have more open field to beat the secondary. If you do that, you have a good chance of being one of the most improved players on the team. If you do this, I am more likely to put you on goal line situations for scoring opportunities." Players that buy into that are not being pumped up with sunshine. Especially if the coach follows through. It is measurable, it offers a probability of success, and it is a statement of motivation with a potential reward or outcome.

My question is about how the team is reacting to Limegrover and comparing that to Jedd Fisch. Why is Fisch's offense outperforming Limegrovers? Are the players not buying into the potential motivation to get on the field if they are mismatched with high potential for success this year? I think the players need to be fit into Kill's offense, whereas Jedd Fisch put in plays week by week for specific players to be successful. In retrospect, each has their faults: too little time to adequately master new plays each week under Jedd; and, conversely, if Matt Limegrover is trying to get his players to fit his designed plays, then it make years of recruiting to get the right players to perform for him, leaving him with players less motivated because of the lack of probability for success this year. The risk/reward ratio may not lead to improvement as the players must fit the plays.

I am finding it harder and harder to believe that Jedd Fisch was such an awful coach and that Matt Limegrover is such a wonderful coach. I don't think the players could possibly have the right motivation to attempt to fit into and conform to the current offense, which is why we see so many more freshmen getting playing time this year.

I think motivation will slowly rise year over year as the players do start fitting into the system, but we will see the Brewster recruits remaining to have difficulty with the transition in year 2 and 3 and 4 and until they are fully replaced with players conforming to the system. Now, with this expectancy to conform, I now see why a 7 year contract becomes more appropriate for Kill than Brewster and Fisch. It will take 4 years to clear out the roster and gain functionally conforming players. Another 3 to prove the system, once it is fully installed.

Although, I am not happy with a system that treats people like interchangeable components, I can appreciate the purpose of its function. It reminds me too much of the Red Army Hockey team methodology. Eliminate the nonconforming players and find the best fitting players to the established style of play. Herb Brooks did that. If it was okay for Herb, it might as well be okay for me.

In retrospect, I think Jedd Fisch was an innovator who worked well with coming up with effective plays, week after week. The limiting factor was how much the team could master these plays in short periods of preparation to have confidence in there success. If they were similar enough to existing plays, they could probably be mastered very effectively over a college career. As it is, we will never know if Jedd Fisch could have improved the offense over 7 years, like Matt Limegrover will be able to prove for his methodology.

 

[Oneoldgopher]

I never thought that our problems in 2009 were because of Jedd Fisch, just like the problems this season are not the result of Limegrover. It isn't easy for a bunch of college players to learn a new offense, especially when they don't have an offensive line.

Another part of our problem in 2009 was Weber was bad. He had a much better 2008 and a much better 2010, but I think even Adam Weber would tell you that he was bad in 2009. I can't really remember a ton of specific plays, but I remember Weber just not playing up to ours (or his expectations). This isn't to blast Weber, this year was the only one he was bad.

But when you have a poor offensive line and you can't pass the ball effeciently at all, you won't be able to move the ball or score very many points. Sound familiar?

Yes, it does sound familiar. So, what would you recommend to Limegrover to keep his players motivated to improve their performance and make the correct choices in doing so?

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Yes, it does sound familiar. So, what would you recommend to Limegrover to keep his players motivated to improve their performance and make the correct choices in doing so?

Well, i'm not really in a position to give advice to a guy who has coached as much as Limegrover. I know it's cliche, but he's probably forgotten more about football than I will ever know.

However, I just think it's going to be a tough season and I would tell those players to continue trying giving it their all and I would hope we would finally execute a bit better. I think it's just a matter of continuing on with what you're doing and you never know what's going to happen. Remember it was the same putrid 2009 offense, that exploded for 42 points and 500 yards to beat Michigan St. So even bad offenses can have their "day in the sun".

I think that's where we are right now....just keep on keeping on, hope for the best and stay the course.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Weber got the snot beat out of him in '08 (I remember multiple times where he was bloody after the game) and in '09 he was jumpy and kept bailing out on passing situations (the line play was not really all that bad).

Yeah, I wasn't really trying to get into the whole Weber thing and he was really gun-shy, but he was also just bad on his own.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

Yes, it does sound familiar. So, what would you recommend to Limegrover to keep his players motivated to improve their performance and make the correct choices in doing so?

I would recommend that Limegrover have taken over an offense that had a 4-yr letterwinner returning at QB (Jacory Harris), along with an O-line that was anchored by two 4-yr letterwinning SR's, a 3-yr junior letterwinner, and a 6-8 345-lb sophomore Tackle that was the #1 recruit in the country (Seantrel).

It obviously shows poor judgment and poor coaching on his part to take over an offensive line that could be starting 4 (maybe even 5?) underclassmen by the end of the season. And what was he thinking taking over an offense where his top choices at QB are a guy that's been playing WR and a true Freshman?

Limegrover obviously has no idea what he's doing...

 

[alchemy2u]

This is getting real old! Every week we have some coach wannabe make some comparison or criticism of the current coaching staff. Where was your glowing analysis of Jedd when he was coaching here?

Give them some time, the transformation is not going to happen overnight. If you want to read a real analysis of what is happening, just go to the thread on MV's take on the O line and follow the link to FBT. It even has pictures so all of you can follow along.

 

[Oneoldgopher]

Well, i'm not really in a position to give advice to a guy who has coached as much as Limegrover. I know it's cliche, but he's probably forgotten more about football than I will ever know.

However, I just think it's going to be a tough season and I would tell those players to continue trying giving it their all and I would hope we would finally execute a bit better. I think it's just a matter of continuing on with what you're doing and you never know what's going to happen. Remember it was the same putrid 2009 offense, that exploded for 42 points and 500 yards to beat Michigan St. So even bad offenses can have their "day in the sun".

I think that's where we are right now....just keep on keeping on, hope for the best and stay the course.

Bob, thank you for being polite.

 

[Oneoldgopher]

This is getting real old! Every week we have some coach wannabe make some comparison or criticism of the current coaching staff. Where was your glowing analysis of Jedd when he was coaching here?

Give them some time, the transformation is not going to happen overnight. If you want to read a real analysis of what is happening, just go to the thread on MV's take on the O line and follow the link to FBT. It even has pictures so all of you can follow along.

I have come to terms that Jerry Kill will be here for 7 years. I thought it would be topical to see what people thought of Jedd Fisch in retrospect given that he is at Miami and continuing their upward path of progress back to dominance this year. He seems like he has connected with the players and they have responded to his type of planning for the "individual" instead of planning for the "system". The contrast could not be more stark and the vitriol expressed toward Jedd seems a bit misplaced now. Yes, he might have had a bad year. But, I am not sure it was his fault, and I said so at the time. As for Limegrover, I am not sure we have seen enough progress to merit giving him praise, but I am not ready to declare him dead-man-walking just yet.

I just wonder how he can motivate his players to work aggressively to improve as individuals and as a team when he is working counter to their personal interests and toward the interest of the system.

There is merit in working to improve systems and replace poorly fitting players with players that fit the system. However, we had Jedd Fisch, who worked at getting the system to fit the players and made adjustments weekly in his game plan and play book to accommodate individuals.

Jeff Wills found a way to go from an overweight player to a much more trim and well conditioned player who could move bodies and produce results, especially near the end of his 2 years at Minnesota. After 10 months with Kill, I don't think I know of a player on the current roster who made as much strides as Jeff Wills last season. I think if the offensive line made as much strides as Jeff Wills did in 2 years, we could see significant improvement in many areas of the offensive game. I don't know who gave Jeff Wills the motivation in a bottle, but, it would be nice to see who is notably improving from game to game this year, and what factors went into their improvement.

 

[LongTimeGopher]

Wills came in as a junior and didn't show much improvement until his senior year. We have a bunch of true Freshmen and RS Freshmen. Apples to oranges. Stupid thread - why ask the question when you think you already know the answer...