Coaching changes are tough.

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balds said:
The "he inherited a 9-4 team" angle is vastly overplayed. You simply can't draw a straight line between seasons like that. How many Power 5 teams have to beg a walk on QB to come back for his 5th year to compete with a guy who had zero other power 5 offers and has zero career starts? Not to mention a Sun Belt quality OL (with no depth), a secondary so depleted we have a walk on S starting at CB, etc. All while learning/playing in a new system.

I really liked Kill, but just like Fleck, he needed time. I recall the same chorus of "this MAC coach is in way over his head" when Kill was struggling early as well.

I also think the "year zero" thing is overplayed. Yes, Fleck could've (should've ) not said it, but in substance he's correct. In August of 2018, 2019, 2020, etc., are we going to be gnashing our teeth about if we went 4-8 this year and not 7-5 and playing in some crap bowl game?
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Sure you can. "WE WON 9 GAMES LAST YEAR! HE CRATERED A 9 WIN TEAM!" See how I did that? :rolleyes:
 

Interesting to watch fans belittle former coaches and roast fans that aren't sold on Fleck yet, yet ignore very questionable game plans, personnel decisions, and lack of adjustments that led to some ignominious losses that hurt fan, media, and likely recruiting momentum. I don't like his negative attitude this season. Perception is he's looking ahead and not focused on winning this year. That doesn't bother some and it bothers others a great deal. I'm not seeing much inspiration on the field.

Kill had a better MAC record than Fleck (read that this is important), while Fleck went to a better bowl game. Kill had a mediocre run at MN but his teams overperformed his recruit rankings by a handy margin, particularly by measures like S&P+. IMO we were a QB away from turning the corner but the staff was limited there.

We all hope PJ is able to turn the corner but he's dug a little bit of a hole and next year may be rough as well if we go into it with the same attitude we can't win without a deep, aged roster but everything will be great by 2020. Sorry for the negativity but it's rubbing off.
 

Spoofin said:
This thread is comical. As I said, how soon we forget. Downplay what Kill did here all you want. Nice to know he will be judged on W/L alone in this context - yet PJ gets a pass for tearing this year's team down because "culture". You truly can't make it up.

What Kill inherited was 10-times worse. NYD Bowl, APR only behind jNW, no off-field embarrassments, playing for division titles, etc. I didn't ask for a statue, but pretty incredible for what he was given.


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Agreed. There is a lot more that happened in the Kill era than wins/losses. Fleck's inherited a team that isn't as bad as what Kill had to work with. Fleck also has the privilege of well established academic success of athletes and the athlete's village that was made possible by Kill. However, regardless of the advantages Fleck has over Kill, their challenges and struggles are pretty similar. Comes with the territory of trying to turn around a program.
 

1ST years do count but not for much. The culture KILL built with character is very admirable but to see a 14-21 record in conference games coached is the very definition of mediocre. Time will tell if Fleck can beat that winning %.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Interesting to watch fans belittle former coaches and roast fans that aren't sold on Fleck yet, yet ignore very questionable game plans, personnel decisions, and lack of adjustments that led to some ignominious losses that hurt fan, media, and likely recruiting momentum. I don't like his negative attitude this season. Perception is he's looking ahead and not focused on winning this year. That doesn't bother some and it bothers others a great deal. I'm not seeing much inspiration on the field.

Kill had a better MAC record than Fleck (read that this is important), while Fleck went to a better bowl game. Kill had a mediocre run at MN but his teams overperformed his recruit rankings by a handy margin, particularly by measures like S&P+. IMO we were a QB away from turning the corner but the staff was limited there.

We all hope PJ is able to turn the corner but he's dug a little bit of a hole and next year may be rough as well if we go into it with the same attitude we can't win without a deep, aged roster but everything will be great by 2020. Sorry for the negativity but it's rubbing off.
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Very curious about the part in bold, especially the comment about personnel. What do you think the staff should have done differently in the games we lost?
 


MNVCGUY said:
Very curious about the part in bold, especially the comment about personnel. What do you think the staff should have done differently in the games we lost?
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As a start, not running inside zone 53 times into +2 boxes vs Maryland. Not playing injured players in an insane attempt to save redshirts vs Purdue.

You've implied you're a coach - you cannot think of a single thing they could do better? Really?
 

Coaching changes are hard and I'm convinced each one is different.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Interesting to watch fans belittle former coaches and roast fans that aren't sold on Fleck yet, yet ignore very questionable game plans, personnel decisions, and lack of adjustments that led to some ignominious losses that hurt fan, media, and likely recruiting momentum. I don't like his negative attitude this season. Perception is he's looking ahead and not focused on winning this year. That doesn't bother some and it bothers others a great deal. I'm not seeing much inspiration on the field.

Kill had a better MAC record than Fleck (read that this is important), while Fleck went to a better bowl game. Kill had a mediocre run at MN but his teams overperformed his recruit rankings by a handy margin, particularly by measures like S&P+. IMO we were a QB away from turning the corner but the staff was limited there.

We all hope PJ is able to turn the corner but he's dug a little bit of a hole and next year may be rough as well if we go into it with the same attitude we can't win without a deep, aged roster but everything will be great by 2020. Sorry for the negativity but it's rubbing off.
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Oh, I definitely appreciate what Kill/Claeys did, but I am not ready to anoint them as the greatest we've ever had. I recognize the glaring roster issues in regards to depth we have on this roster. OL, DL, DB and QB. Not to menition the numerous years of next to ZERO WR develpoment from Kill/Claeys et al. This was going to be an issue whether Claeys were here or Fleck. Add to the fact the amount of injuries that are starting to pile up and I'd certainly like to hear how people think this team shouldn't be in the situation they are in? I get it's tough to go from 9 wins to 4, maybe best case scenario, 6 or 7. But, really, what in the world do people expect? Even with all the issues, the team has been very competitive week in and week out (sans Michigan). Just came out on the wrong side of W's. That's football. And really, I am willing to give this staff the benefit of the doubt that they'll improve on their in-game coaching as certainly they at least have the track record from WMU.
 





Pompous Elitist said:
As a start, not running inside zone 53 times into +2 boxes vs Maryland. Not playing injured players in an insane attempt to save redshirts vs Purdue.

You've implied you're a coach - you cannot think of a single thing they could do better? Really?
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Not a coach but was close to the game for a long time. It is easy as a fan to pick things apart and say what the teams should have or should not have done after the game. All coaches make mistakes but they spend countless hours coming up with what they think is the best plan of attack each week given the personnel they have and the opponent they are facing. I would challenge anyone to design a good offensive scheme that will work against Big Ten defenses with our current personnel. Teams know we have no QB and our receivers are average at best and drop the ball quite a bit meaning they are going to sell out to stop the run and make us throw.

Had a family event the night of the Purdue game so I don't know what injured players you are referring to. I was only able to catch bits and pieces of that one due to the weather delay. I stand by what I said before that I honestly believe that no matter who was the head coach this season, a 4-5 record this season would not have been surprising given the way this roster sets up and the obvious glaring holes we have at spots like QB, WR, DE, and DB to name a few.
 


builtbadgers said:
to see a 14-21 record in conference games coached is the very definition of mediocre
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Sure, out of context, it looks mediocre. How about when you compare it to the 8-24 put up in the 5 years previous to his tenure? How does it look then?

As long as we're discussing it - in the last 5 years of Mason's tenure, the Gophers were 18-22 in the Big Ten. He had the benefit of building a program for 5 years prior to that as well.

Kill's Big Ten winning percentage was .400. Brewster/Horton's was .250. That's an improvement of 15%. In order to match that level of improvement, Fleck will have to go .550 in the Big Ten in his first 5 seasons. That equates to, essentially, a 25-20 record in the Big Ten.

Let's go nuts and assume he beats NU and NU to finish the Big Ten season 3-6. That would mean he'll have to go 22-14 over the next 4 seasons just to match Kill's level of improvement over his predecessor. For those who are poor at math, that's averaging 5.5 Big Ten wins per season. If he loses out (a very real possibility), he'll have to go 24-12 over the next 4 years - averaging exactly a 6-3 record each year.

Is anyone confident he can do that? I certainly am not.
 




FWIW, coaching changes aren't tough, it is being a Gophers fan that is tough.
 

The Flecksters have gone completely off the rails. WOW.

No one is arguing that Kill built MN into a powerhouse. However, he built MN into an OK team. That is a drastic improvement over what he inherited.

Winning 9 games at the University of MN is an accomplishment. It's rare. Please keep pointing to wins against Purdue and Illinois like they don't count. They count. They will count when PJ beats them.

This is really an out of touch conversation. Kill built the program to a point where we could take wins for granted. No one is arguing that we should build him a statue or any other hyperbolic declaration you're going to reiterate, but he was a successful coach here (so was Mason). If we win 8-10 games consistently with Fleck, he will be successful. . . even if those wins are against Purdue, Illinois, etc.
 


Winnipegopher said:
Brewster inherited a worse roster than Kill or Fleck.
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This is actually a much more interesting debate. You could very well be right. That was going to be an awful season regardless. I do think Mason would have gotten more out of that team, but it was pretty empty roster.

Fleck vs. Kill - - it's not even close.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Jerry Kill was/is a good football coach but his accomplishments here are being way oversold by many who act like he had us on the cusp of greatness. He had us out of the cellar and in the middle of the pack, he deserves respect for that but he has been elevated to god like status by a lot of posters here and his accomplishments have been way overblown.
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+1000
 

I loved having Jerry here. I really wish he had taken a break or time off or something and stayed rather than walked.... he did great things here.

Having said that I also think his system and staff may have plateaued (crooting never seemed to take off alongside the program even if they were good at picking some diamonds in the rough... still a lot of rough) and even his teams were susceptible to some brutal steps back such as the 14 season into to the 15 kent state game / year ....
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
This is actually a much more interesting debate. You could very well be right. That was going to be an awful season regardless. I do think Mason would have gotten more out of that team, but it was pretty empty roster.

Fleck vs. Kill - - it's not even close.
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In the classroom it’s not close. On the field closer than you think. The disaster Kill inherited on defense is very similar to the disaster Fleck has inherited on offense. It was sad how slow/bad our DBs were in 2011. Similarly it is sad how slow/bad our WRs are today, along with our terrible OL and QB play. I’d take the 2011 offense over this one.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I’d take the 2011 offense over this one.
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QB - Gray vs. Croft - slight advantage 2011
RB - Bennett/Kirkwood vs. Smith/Brooks/McCrary - huge advantage 2017
WR - McKnight/Green/Barker vs. Johnson/Carter/Still - slight advantage 2017
TE - McGarry/Lair vs. Lingen/Wozniak - gigantic advantage 2017
OL - Olson/Bunders/Wynn/Orton/Gjere vs. Greene/Wright/Olson/Calhoun/Schlueter - slight advantage 2017

The 2017 talent is better at every position save potentially QB, and even that is in question. Gray is/was a hell of an athlete, but not a good college QB.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Sure, out of context, it looks mediocre. How about when you compare it to the 8-24 put up in the 5 years previous to his tenure? How does it look then?

As long as we're discussing it - in the last 5 years of Mason's tenure, the Gophers were 18-22 in the Big Ten. He had the benefit of building a program for 5 years prior to that as well.

Kill's Big Ten winning percentage was .400. Brewster/Horton's was .250. That's an improvement of 15%. In order to match that level of improvement, Fleck will have to go .550 in the Big Ten in his first 5 seasons. That equates to, essentially, a 25-20 record in the Big Ten.

Let's go nuts and assume he beats NU and NU to finish the Big Ten season 3-6. That would mean he'll have to go 22-14 over the next 4 seasons just to match Kill's level of improvement over his predecessor. For those who are poor at math, that's averaging 5.5 Big Ten wins per season. If he loses out (a very real possibility), he'll have to go 24-12 over the next 4 years - averaging exactly a 6-3 record each year.

Is anyone confident he can do that? I certainly am not.
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Measuring Kill against Brewster is dumb because it is well documented that Brewster was in over his head and it was a terrible decision to hire him in the first place. Comparing Kill to Mason is much more fair because both were competent coaches who knew what they were doing. So in Mason's first 5 years he went 14-26 in Big Ten play for a .350 winning percentage and in his last 5 he went 18-22 for a .450 winning percentage. That would mean Kill did slightly better then Mason early and slightly worse then Mason late. Both inherited a program that was in bad shape but Kill had to undo the damage from 4 years whereas Mason had to overcome a program that had been a joke for decades.

Fleck doesn't need to match Kill's level of improvement he just needs to maintain at least the same level and hopefully improve it. Time will tell if he can get it done.

And on a separate note in regards to the breakdown of 2011 vs. 2017, I would disagree that the current TE are a gigantic upgrade over what we had then and I would also say the RB's now are definitely better but not by a ton over they guys we had then. Nearly all other positions you listed as slightly better for 2017 which I think could definitely be debated in some cases. And you give 2011 a slight edge at the most important position on the field which is QB. If you were going to put the two teams head to head I would give 2011 a slight edge on offense and 2017 a slight edge on defense but I think the teams would be very evenly matched.
 

MNVCGUY said:
What Kill did was not incredible, had he won a division championship that would have been incredible. He inherited a train wreck and he brought it back to respectable, the exact same thing that Mason did when he inherited the train wreck from Wacker and brought the team back to competitive. Fleck did not inherit a mess to the level that Kill and Mason did but he did inherit a roster with massive holes in it at some of the most important positions on the field.
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Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Each coach had their pluses and their "warts".

Because I am master of the obvious, I will state some obvious things below and mix in a healthy amount of opinion.

Wacker, from all accounts that I heard, ran a clean program with many players graduating. Mason improved the on the field product, but the players were a little weak on the APR(most of the drop was post termination). Brewster will all of his warts, did start the classroom improvement movement, but that dropped off when he was canned. Kill improved the on the field product and brought the team back to respectability in addition to improving the "culture". Fleck is yet to be determined.

IMHO Mason exposed the reality that if the administration did not invest in football, it was doomed to be mediocre at best.

Brewster failed to get us their, but he reignited the flames of potential that this program had.

Kill Was much of what Brewster lacked to get us to championship level goals, but health failed him.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Measuring Kill against Brewster is dumb because it is well documented that Brewster was in over his head and it was a terrible decision to hire him in the first place. Comparing Kill to Mason is much more fair because both were competent coaches who knew what they were doing. So in Mason's first 5 years he went 14-26 in Big Ten play for a .350 winning percentage and in his last 5 he went 18-22 for a .450 winning percentage. That would mean Kill did slightly better then Mason early and slightly worse then Mason late. Both inherited a program that was in bad shape but Kill had to undo the damage from 4 years whereas Mason had to overcome a program that had been a joke for decades.

Fleck doesn't need to match Kill's level of improvement he just needs to maintain at least the same level and hopefully improve it. Time will tell if he can get it done.

And on a separate note in regards to the breakdown of 2011 vs. 2017, I would disagree that the current TE are a gigantic upgrade over what we had then and I would also say the RB's now are definitely better but not by a ton over they guys we had then. Nearly all other positions you listed as slightly better for 2017 which I think could definitely be debated in some cases. And you give 2011 a slight edge at the most important position on the field which is QB. If you were going to put the two teams head to head I would give 2011 a slight edge on offense and 2017 a slight edge on defense but I think the teams would be very evenly matched.
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Sure, when you caveat everything to death, it's a dumb comparison. Ok, since you say that it's "well-documented" :rolleyes: that Brewster was "in over his head", how about we compare Fleck to his immediate predecessor - another guy who many point to as having been "well-documented" that he was "in over his head". How is Fleck doing compared to Claeys? Fleck is clearly eminently more qualified; how do the on-field results compare?
 

Spoofin said:
This thread is comical. As I said, how soon we forget. Downplay what Kill did here all you want. Nice to know he will be judged on W/L alone in this context - yet PJ gets a pass for tearing this year's team down because "culture". You truly can't make it up.

What Kill inherited was 10-times worse. NYD Bowl, APR only behind jNW, no off-field embarrassments, playing for division titles, etc. I didn't ask for a statue, but pretty incredible for what he was given.


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I think everyone respects Kill and appreciates what he did. He left the program in a much better place.

You're being ripped, and rightfully so, because you said it was incredible.
 

John Galt said:
I think everyone respects Kill and appreciates what he did. He left the program in a much better place.

You're being ripped, and rightfully so, because you said it was incredible.
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And I stand by that statement. Rip away.


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The idea that the first year has to be tough is so false.
Lincoln Riley at Oklahoma is 8 and 1. I wonder why he didn't blow it up and install his own new culture? 11 and 2 isn't that far from 9 and 4.
Lane Kiffin is 6 and 3 overall and 5 and 0 in the conference. They were 3 and 9 last year.
Ed Orgeron is 6 and 3 at LSU
Butch Davis is 6 and 2 at FIU They were 4 and 8 last year.
Charlie Strong is 8 and 1 at So. Florida
Mike Sanford is 5 and 4 at Western Kentucky
Tim Lester is 6 and 4 at Western Michigan They opened with USC and Michigan St to begin the season for their first two non-conference games.
Jeff Tedford is 6 and 3 at Fresno State They were 1 and 11 last year.

The idea you have to blow up and trash a program to install a new culture is PJ's idea, not these guys.
 

60's Guy said:
The idea that the first year has to be tough is so false.
Lincoln Riley at Oklahoma is 8 and 1. I wonder why he didn't blow it up and install his own new culture? 11 and 2 isn't that far from 9 and 4.
Lane Kiffin is 6 and 3 overall and 5 and 0 in the conference. They were 3 and 9 last year.
Ed Orgeron is 6 and 3 at LSU
Butch Davis is 6 and 2 at FIU They were 4 and 8 last year.
Charlie Strong is 8 and 1 at So. Florida
Mike Sanford is 5 and 4 at Western Kentucky
Tim Lester is 6 and 4 at Western Michigan They opened with USC and Michigan St to begin the season for their first two non-conference games.
Jeff Tedford is 6 and 3 at Fresno State They were 1 and 11 last year.

The idea you have to blow up and trash a program to install a new culture is PJ's idea, not these guys.
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It is PJ's idea. No one said it wasn't. It is his program to run the way he wants. Doesn't really matter if that offends some of the fan base. If he wins in the end no one will care.
 

60's Guy said:
The idea that the first year has to be tough is so false.
Lincoln Riley at Oklahoma is 8 and 1. I wonder why he didn't blow it up and install his own new culture? 11 and 2 isn't that far from 9 and 4.
Lane Kiffin is 6 and 3 overall and 5 and 0 in the conference. They were 3 and 9 last year.
Ed Orgeron is 6 and 3 at LSU
Butch Davis is 6 and 2 at FIU They were 4 and 8 last year.
Charlie Strong is 8 and 1 at So. Florida
Mike Sanford is 5 and 4 at Western Kentucky
Tim Lester is 6 and 4 at Western Michigan They opened with USC and Michigan St to begin the season for their first two non-conference games.
Jeff Tedford is 6 and 3 at Fresno State They were 1 and 11 last year.

The idea you have to blow up and trash a program to install a new culture is PJ's idea, not these guys.
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Not criticizing, but it's interesting none of the examples you gave were lower level coaches moving up to higher tier conferences.

Lincoln Riley is a very similar situation to Tracy Claeys. Much different being promoted and retaining most of the staff, players, etc. No change in systems, no getting to know you period, etc.

Ed Orgeron is practically a pariah in Louisiana for his "poor" record.

Kiffin, Davis, Strong and Tedford are all bigger name coaches going to lower conferences. In those conferences, a handful of talented players can make a huge difference. All of them brought in players that would not have come to those schools had those coaches not been there.

Sanford is not quite in the above territory, but DC of Notre Dame isn't chopped liver, either.

Based on the roster the Gophers have and any potential recruits they may have gotten, do you honestly believe ANY of those coaches have the Gophers offense or defense playing better than they are?
 

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