Coaching Candidates

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builtbadgers said:
It is OK to defend Pitino, i have when i see fit. In nearly every instance of studying successful coaches they show miraculous results very early in their career. All coaches make mistakes, especially in recruiting but the great ones were great early and the culture they installed apparent to other coaches right away even if wins were not year one. We have tracked how they play. In each case they built from defense day one ! They never sacrificed or risked character. I do hope he learned from those mistakes on character and think he has. Also think he learned on defense but with that said something that is ineffable is missing. When you meet great coaches, or teachers or leaders you know it right away. They have a certain magic, they have the ability to get people to be self assured but not selfish. They give all those around them confidence that no matter the outcome that as long as they battled every moment they would be fine. If it was easy everyone would do it but some people are smarter and more gifted than others. In studying great coaches we found that they were great at other things their whole lives. You just have to know that the greatness i describe is out there coaching or assisting at any level.
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Genuinely appreciate the insights. Any thoughts on a hypothetical short list for the U?
 

builtbadgers said:
It is OK to defend Pitino, i have when i see fit. In nearly every instance of studying successful coaches they show miraculous results very early in their career. All coaches make mistakes, especially in recruiting but the great ones were great early and the culture they installed apparent to other coaches right away even if wins were not year one. We have tracked how they play. In each case they built from defense day one ! They never sacrificed or risked character. I do hope he learned from those mistakes on character and think he has. Also think he learned on defense but with that said something that is ineffable is missing. When you meet great coaches, or teachers or leaders you know it right away. They have a certain magic, they have the ability to get people to be self assured but not selfish. They give all those around them confidence that no matter the outcome that as long as they battled every moment they would be fine. If it was easy everyone would do it but some people are smarter and more gifted than others. In studying great coaches we found that they were great at other things their whole lives. You just have to know that the greatness i describe is out there coaching or assisting at any level.
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This is a great post and I agree with it 100%. Everyone is looking hard at all these coaches and assistants from named schools, etc. There are coaches that fit your description all throughout the land. D2 guys, D3. I would prefer someone that has been in it awhile and has had success and possesses some of the things you mention in your post there. It's more than just looking at records, etc. It needs to be someone that from day 1 you know what you are getting. Someone player, fans, boosters, etc can respect right from the word go.

I'll give you an example because my daughter is nuts for softball. John Tshcida at St. Thomas. That guy could be one of the best D1 coaches around if he preferred to do so. Has all the intangibles and if you ever listen to him talk or go to any clinic, etc he puts on, it's obvious to see it just by hearing him talk and watching him coach.
 
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Gopherbbdude said:
That right there is the problem I see with changing coaches. to change a B level coach for a B level coach does not make sense to me. It is highly unlikely we will ever have a top 15 coach here.

I'll stop posting on this subject, as I am one of very few that still support Pitino.

Go Gophers!!! work to do and they can do it!!
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$2.5-3 million would probably get Musselman, assuming AZ or UCLA isn't already offering the same or more. It would almost certainly get Oates. It might get Howland. It won't even take that much to get an Otzelberger or a Medved. The defeatist attitude will get us nowhere.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
The "downward spiral" argument is an interesting one, given that his last year was his best. Usually downward spirals go down.
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Wally Ellenson. Charles Buggs. Alvin Ellis. Alex Foster(?) Those were Tubby's last two Fall recruiting classes. Only Ellis ever did anything and he was a decent bench player. It was coming. Maybe he could have rescued it with Spring recruits, but his track record on that wasn't good. Same concern I have now.
 
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howeda7 said:
Wally Ellenson. Charles Buggs. Alvin Ellis. Alex Foster(?) Those were Tubby's last two Fall recruiting classes. Only Ellis ever did anything and he was a decent bench player. It was coming. Maybe he could have rescued it with Spring recruits, but his track record on that wasn't good. Same concern I have now.
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Our roster is in way better shape than when Tubby left.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 


Face The Facts said:
I did a sort by tenure.

These guys are better than Richard.

Jim Boeheim
Mike Krzyzewski
Tom Izzo
Mike Brey
Jay Wright
Leonard Hamilton
Roy Williams
Scott Drew
Bill Self
Matt Painter
Bob Huggins
John Beilein
Tony Bennett
Sean Miller
John Calipari


I think these guys are also better

Fran McCaffery
Lon Kruger
Bruce Weber
Frank Martin
Buzz Williams
Bruce Pearl
Shaka Smart
Greg Gard
Ben Howland
Rick Barnes
Archie Miller
Cuonzo Martin
Tom Crean

That's 28

That leaves these:

Bobby Hurley Arizona State Sun Devils
Mike Anderson Arkansas Razorbacks
Tad Boyle Colorado Buffaloes
Michael White Florida Gators
Patrick Ewing Georgetown Hoyas
Brad Underwood Illinois Fighting Illini
Steve Prohm Iowa State Cyclones
Chris Mack Louisville Cardinals
Will Wade LSU Tigers
Steve Wojciechowski Marquette Golden Eagles
Mark Turgeon Maryland Terrapins
Jim Larrañaga Miami Hurricanes
Kevin Keatts NC State Wolfpack
Tim Miles Nebraska Cornhuskers
Chris Holtmann Ohio State Buckeyes
Kermit Davis Ole Miss Rebels
Wayne Tinkle Oregon State Beavers
Ed Cooley Providence Friars
Steve Pikiell Rutgers Scarlet Knights
Kevin Willard Seton Hall Pirates
Jamie Dixon TCU Horned Frogs
Chris Beard Texas Tech Red Raiders
Andy Enfield USC Trojans
Larry Krystkowiak Utah Utes
Mike Hopkins Washington Huskies
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I would trade Pitino for everyone left on this list and several consider of the others a push. Further, everyone in bold is get-able to some degree or another, IMO.
 
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I am from chicago and this reminds me of one thing I saw this past summer. It was an hour show on Hawk Harrelson! Hawk said that he hated vince Lombardi. He hated everything about him, but never had met him. Later, he met him and said that after talking with vince Lombardi for like ten minutes he would of run through a brick wall for this guy. Some people or coaches have that effect on people.
 





Gopherbbdude said:
Our roster is in way better shape than when Tubby left.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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Yes, there is actually some talent to build and compete with if all eligible players remain, but the restocking of the cupboard is concerning for next year - but that is only one of many concerns.
 

Gopherbbdude said:
Even better

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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If Pitino followed up last year's recruiting class with a similar one, I don't think we're having this conversation. But he didn't. Not even close.
 

howeda7 said:
If Pitino followed up last year's recruiting class with a similar one, I don't think we're having this conversation. But he didn't. Not even close.
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Really dont know that yet

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

howeda7 said:
If Pitino followed up last year's recruiting class with a similar one, I don't think we're having this conversation. But he didn't. Not even close.
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This class isn't over yet. Pitino's spring recruiting has been pretty good, plus we add to guards that are transfers this year. Only a certain amount of spots left to take.
 



howeda7 said:
If Pitino followed up last year's recruiting class with a similar one, I don't think we're having this conversation. But he didn't. Not even close.
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The Andy enfield problem?
 

lol @ the argument that this class isn't over yet when discussing Tubby's final recruiting class being terrible
 

builtbadgers said:
It is OK to defend Pitino, i have when i see fit. In nearly every instance of studying successful coaches they show miraculous results very early in their career. All coaches make mistakes, especially in recruiting but the great ones were great early and the culture they installed apparent to other coaches right away even if wins were not year one. We have tracked how they play. In each case they built from defense day one ! They never sacrificed or risked character. I do hope he learned from those mistakes on character and think he has. Also think he learned on defense but with that said something that is ineffable is missing. When you meet great coaches, or teachers or leaders you know it right away. They have a certain magic, they have the ability to get people to be self assured but not selfish. They give all those around them confidence that no matter the outcome that as long as they battled every moment they would be fine. If it was easy everyone would do it but some people are smarter and more gifted than others. In studying great coaches we found that they were great at other things their whole lives. You just have to know that the greatness i describe is out there coaching or assisting at any level.
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Great post and agree with most of it, but again I believe everything is a skill that is developed. Environment creates the these skills you mentioned above. Every great coach I've seen/studied had some sort of adversity and struggle along the way that they learned from and were not perfect/didn't win the whole time along the way. SI wrote a good article about hiring guys after they've failed once (used Billichick as an example). Either way, I do agree that it's not always an obvious answer and some digging needs to be done. Thanks for your sharing.
 


builtbadgers said:
It is OK to defend Pitino, i have when i see fit. In nearly every instance of studying successful coaches they show miraculous results very early in their career. All coaches make mistakes, especially in recruiting but the great ones were great early and the culture they installed apparent to other coaches right away even if wins were not year one. We have tracked how they play. In each case they built from defense day one ! They never sacrificed or risked character. I do hope he learned from those mistakes on character and think he has. Also think he learned on defense but with that said something that is ineffable is missing. When you meet great coaches, or teachers or leaders you know it right away. They have a certain magic, they have the ability to get people to be self assured but not selfish. They give all those around them confidence that no matter the outcome that as long as they battled every moment they would be fine. If it was easy everyone would do it but some people are smarter and more gifted than others. In studying great coaches we found that they were great at other things their whole lives. You just have to know that the greatness i describe is out there coaching or assisting at any level.
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You refer to "we" many, many times. Who is "we"?

You have continually preached about not sacrificing or risking character - and you lump K in that group. You are flat out wrong on that one. Magette and Will Avery are two examples off the top. This applies to most of the coaches and programs that are in the top 20 annually.

How many of the coaches in your top 15 have not taken risks with kids? Top 25?
 

Winasota Gopher said:
lol @ the argument that this class isn't over yet when discussing Tubby's final recruiting class being terrible
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Most on the football board trash Claeys' final recruiting class, when he was fired a month before signing day, so it makes the same amount of sense (i.e., none) that they would be trashing Tubby's recruiting 6 years after the fact.
 

manderson1984 said:
This class isn't over yet. Pitino's spring recruiting has been pretty good, plus we add to guards that are transfers this year. Only a certain amount of spots left to take.
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Spring recruiting is a crap-shoot unless you're a blue blood. We have four Spring recruits on this year's team. Two are sitting out and two have contributed very little. It's hard to expect four Spring recruits this year are going to contribute a lot next season. It's a fair bet 1-2 will again be transfers who sit. And Grad transfers don't always work out. Spring was nice. Malik Smith was OK. Stull is not.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
lol @ the argument that this class isn't over yet when discussing Tubby's final recruiting class being terrible
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It's a similar situation. Tubby had two marginal recruits and two open scholarships at this point. Pitino has one decent recruit and 3 open scholarships. No one goes into the fall with 4 open spots, intending to leave 2-3 of them open.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Most on the football board trash Claeys' final recruiting class, when he was fired a month before signing day, so it makes the same amount of sense (i.e., none) that they would be trashing Tubby's recruiting 6 years after the fact.
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Completely reasonable to compare coaching tenures when evaluating the status of a collegiate program. It now makes more sense than ever because they both have had six years to put his own signature on the program. Part of the evaluation is the momentum exhibited in the recruits Tubby/Pitino had/has brought in. Why you want to try to stand behind Tubby's last two classes is confusing to me. By any account, the last two years weren't very impressive.

I'll give you credit though. For six years, you haven't wavered in your stance on Tubby/Pitino. It looks more and more like you may have been right all along.
 

howeda7 said:
Spring recruiting is a crap-shoot unless you're a blue blood. We have four Spring recruits on this year's team. Two are sitting out and two have contributed very little. It's hard to expect four Spring recruits this year are going to contribute a lot next season. It's a fair bet 1-2 will again be transfers who sit. And Grad transfers don't always work out. Spring was nice. Malik Smith was OK. Stull is not.
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I was just saying that it isn't over yet. I'm just saying that is one area where Richard has recruited ok was during the the spring. Agreed it's a crapshoot, but mentioning that when we look at this years recruiting class, it should count the other two new players coming in. Not a shot at Tubby or Claeys or necessarily sticking up for Richard.
 

golfing18now said:
Completely reasonable to compare coaching tenures when evaluating the status of a collegiate program. It now makes more sense than ever because they both have had six years to put his own signature on the program. Part of the evaluation is the momentum exhibited in the recruits Tubby/Pitino had/has brought in. Why you want to try to stand behind Tubby's last two classes is confusing to me. By any account, the last two years weren't very impressive.

I'll give you credit though. For six years, you haven't wavered in your stance on Tubby/Pitino. It looks more and more like you may have been right all along.
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Stop it, DPO's head will get too big j/k. I think it's more indicative of a wrong hire not a bad fire as no one was coming here either at that time. Culture/money is better now and more people would be interested in the position I believe.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Most on the football board trash Claeys' final recruiting class, when he was fired a month before signing day, so it makes the same amount of sense (i.e., none) that they would be trashing Tubby's recruiting 6 years after the fact.
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I’m not sure if you know what the word most means
 

BarnBurner said:
You refer to "we" many, many times. Who is "we"?

You have continually preached about not sacrificing or risking character - and you lump K in that group. You are flat out wrong on that one. Magette and Will Avery are two examples off the top. This applies to most of the coaches and programs that are in the top 20 annually.

How many of the coaches in your top 15 have not taken risks with kids? Top 25?
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We refers to the U. K has had 2 in 35 plus years but they were not a known problem until well after they got to school and they were way after the build. Bennett, Ryan,Keady,Painter, Bennett, Wright, Stevens ,Few, Knight all believed in high character. I can only speak to the coaches and programs i know. Some of these programs i did the pre scout on dozens of kids and in every case it counted character as the number one factor. If they passed that then high skills were the priority. The theory was already developed that if you had those two things that the chance of playing tough defense, always being well conditioned and being unselfish were present. If you set in stone that you will take good shots, be unselfish, be skilled, limit turnovers and lock down defensively that you could build and sustain a winner. This was taught by Knight in his coaching clinics and 2 generations of high school and college coaches bought it and implemented it. Everyone wants talent but often if it lacks skills and any of the other qualities then it spells trouble. Jerry West gave a great lecture on this years ago . The programs that do not want to play it straight that is their choice. I am talking about building sustainable success at a non blue blood. These are not my words but the words of coaches who built honorable winners.
 

Go Gophs said:
This is a great post and I agree with it 100%. Everyone is looking hard at all these coaches and assistants from named schools, etc. There are coaches that fit your description all throughout the land. D2 guys, D3. I would prefer someone that has been in it awhile and has had success and possesses some of the things you mention in your post there. It's more than just looking at records, etc. It needs to be someone that from day 1 you know what you are getting. Someone player, fans, boosters, etc can respect right from the word go.

I'll give you an example because my daughter is nuts for softball. John Tshcida at St. Thomas. That guy could be one of the best D1 coaches around if he preferred to do so. Has all the intangibles and if you ever listen to him talk or go to any clinic, etc he puts on, it's obvious to see it just by hearing him talk and watching him coach.
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Agree, some of the best coaches in the country coach at the lower levels or or even in D1 mid majors that most people have not even heard of, guys like Byrd at Belmont or Mckillop at Davidson. The MIAC had a few that could coach circles around half the guys in the Big 10. The WIAC had some supreme coaches that went on to build D1 winners. Hell, Jack Bennett was incredible at UWSP . D1 coaches made the trip up there to learn from him. That conference was a competitive hell and those programs built outside of Eau Claire, which had the nicest campus and the best location were titanic jobs. Those guys you are referring too had a real devotion to teaching and often stay in smaller jobs so they do not get burdened by the other stuff, the booster stuff, the administrative stuff, the recruiting garbage and stay where they are. Still good money, low profile, camp money and that awesome UW system pension !
 

builtbadgers said:
We refers to the U. K has had 2 in 35 plus years but they were not a known problem until well after they got to school and they were way after the build. Bennett, Ryan,Keady,Painter, Bennett, Wright, Stevens ,Few, Knight all believed in high character. I can only speak to the coaches and programs i know. Some of these programs i did the pre scout on dozens of kids and in every case it counted character as the number one factor. If they passed that then high skills were the priority. The theory was already developed that if you had those two things that the chance of playing tough defense, always being well conditioned and being unselfish were present. If you set in stone that you will take good shots, be unselfish, be skilled, limit turnovers and lock down defensively that you could build and sustain a winner. This was taught by Knight in his coaching clinics and 2 generations of high school and college coaches bought it and implemented it. Everyone wants talent but often if it lacks skills and any of the other qualities then it spells trouble. Jerry West gave a great lecture on this years ago . The programs that do not want to play it straight that is their choice. I am talking about building sustainable success at a non blue blood. These are not my words but the words of coaches who built honorable winners.
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When you have used "we" before, it was seemingly in reference to you/your firm/background. Is this accurate?

You definitely under report the coaches that take a risk on "character'. Excusing the first two(in 35 years!!!) I mentioned by saying "after they got to school" is a crock. We both know the landscape of college athletics requires taking risks on kids - at nearly every institution.

Being unselfish, limiting turnovers, taking high % shots, lock down defensively is a fine formula, and one that I agree with. I would add make a high % of FT's to your list.

Of course it is their choice not to play it straight. If I recall, in the past you put Roy and UNC in "the" group. And I called you on it - because ol Roy and UNC continue unscathed, even after committing the biggest academic fraud in the history of college BB. That is a fact, built. Tar Heels on a path to another Final 4 perhaps. And they are as dirty as any.

While Minnesota bares our chest and asks for the harshest penalties available (see Gangelhoff cheating scandal), UNC fights penalties tooth and nail. UNC continues with great "success" on the court, and MN continues misery. And yet there are folks that just cant grasp the differences and, more importantly, many of the reasons for the gap in "success".

Perhaps MN needs some serious gap analysis?


Do you feel the kid at Duke that was tripping folks and playing dirty had high character? I sure dont. K sat him for one game. Oooh!!!!
 

BarnBurner said:
When you have used "we" before, it was seemingly in reference to you/your firm/background. Is this accurate?

You definitely under report the coaches that take a risk on "character'. Excusing the first two(in 35 years!!!) I mentioned by saying "after they got to school" is a crock. We both know the landscape of college athletics requires taking risks on kids - at nearly every institution.

Being unselfish, limiting turnovers, taking high % shots, lock down defensively is a fine formula, and one that I agree with. I would add make a high % of FT's to your list.

Of course it is their choice not to play it straight. If I recall, in the past you put Roy and UNC in "the" group. And I called you on it - because ol Roy and UNC continue unscathed, even after committing the biggest academic fraud in the history of college BB. That is a fact, built. Tar Heels on a path to another Final 4 perhaps. And they are as dirty as any.

While Minnesota bares our chest and asks for the harshest penalties available (see Gangelhoff cheating scandal), UNC fights penalties tooth and nail. UNC continues with great "success" on the court, and MN continues misery. And yet there are folks that just cant grasp the differences and, more importantly, many of the reasons for the gap in "success".

Perhaps MN needs some serious gap analysis?


Do you feel the kid at Duke that was tripping folks and playing dirty had high character? I sure dont. K sat him for one game. Oooh!!!!
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This is a good example of someone who people don't take seriously. Delusional is the term that comes to mind.

Let's be better than this folks.
 

bizzle22 said:
This is a good example of someone who people don't take seriously. Delusional is the term that comes to mind.

Let's be better than this folks.
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Dont care for facts and accuracy dizzle?
 

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