Chip: It's time for Gophers to contend under Fleck; Expectations deserve to be higher

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PJ has more fans that dislike him than those past coaches mentioned and more zealous supporters as well. Silly to suggest otherwise.


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I'm a huge supporter of Fleck, and I think last year I laid out what I thought was a reasonable plan of improvement. People scoffed because they want immediate results.

People pushing for 9 or 10 wins or else it's a disappointment are setting themselves up for disappointment.
People then point to the season Claeys had as if that was some plateau we were riding.
Then if someone mentions that bad aspects of the year Claeys had, they get upset that we are bringing up things that shouldn't be talked about, complete misunderstood, or Mark Coyle's fault.

TC media is looking to rip Fleck because he puts a bullseye on himself, but they don't even do a good job of it. Actually find something worthy if you want to rip him rather than taking drive-by shots about him saying "young". Do some work. See why they are young. Then find a reason you disagree and rip on them.

In any regard, newspapers and media can get more attention by being negative, and it's easy to do for those who are lazy.

For the fans on GH who are setting themselves up for disappointment, they just don't like Fleck and they won't even if he wins a Big Ten West. I think some have even said it.

We all pretty much want them to win this year and for years to come. Just half the crowd is going to spend it pissing and moaning as they climb.

There's always going to be another mountain and some will want to make it move. It's always going to be an uphill battle. Sometimes your going to have to lose. It's not about how fast you get there or what's waiting on the other side. It's the climb.
 

Face The Facts said:
For the fans on GH who are setting themselves up for disappointment, they just don't like Fleck and they won't even if he wins a Big Ten West. I think some have even said it.
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This again? My least favorite take in GH history. The more you expect of the Gophers the more you dislike Fleck. If you expect them to succeed too much you really just want them to fail. It’s right up there with the moon landing being a hoax.

By the same argument, anyone predicting 7 or fewer wins doesn’t really believe it - they just really love PJ and are afraid to have him fail.


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Spoofin said:
PJ has more fans that dislike him than those past coaches mentioned and more zealous supporters as well. Silly to suggest otherwise.
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Now, that's a very useful and convenient thing to do - make a completely subjective claim that has no way of being proven, and then drive the point home by declaring that a viewpoint other than yours is absurd. Well done!
 

Urbandale said:
Now, that's a very useful and convenient thing to do - make a completely subjective claim that has no way of being proven, and then drive the point home by declaring that a viewpoint other than yours is absurd. Well done!
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Do you disagree with my opinion on this?


Speaking of subjective claims that can’t be proven.....

Urbandale said:
Well, let's paint a very clear picture here:

When anyone says anything negative about Mason, his defenders leap into action to protect the coach's honor.
When anyone says anything negative about Kill, his defenders leap into action to protect the coach's honor.
When anyone says anything negative about Claeys, his defenders leap into action to protect the coach's honor.
When anyone says anything negative about Brewster, his...well, there are some voices, but mostly crickets.

We've seen this give-and-take with everybody. This is nothing out of the ordinary.
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DP
 
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Face The Facts said:
People pushing for 9 or 10 wins or else it's a disappointment are setting themselves up for disappointment.
People then point to the season Claeys had as if that was some plateau we were riding.
Then if someone mentions that bad aspects of the year Claeys had, they get upset that we are bringing up things that shouldn't be talked about, complete misunderstood, or Mark Coyle's fault.
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I think the problem a lot of us who point to the 9 win 2016 level as a goal have is the double standard. I have a lot of trouble imagining PJ winning 9 games this year, and then seeing the 2016 critics complaining that Fleck won the wrong nine games, or that some of his nine wins were too close against weak opponents. I certainly wont do that if Fleck wins nine, but I also dont do it to 2016.
 

John Galt said:
The only expectation I can remember from Kill was that we were going to play hard until the whistle blew. And that players who didn’t fit his culture got to wear the brown loapher jerseys.

The same folks that loved these expectations are now demanding that PJ needs to have the most regular season wins in 50 years. He must be a damn good coach if he pulls it off...
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Seeing how it's been done multiple times in recent years. I don't think eight wins is unreasonable. Kill did it from the hospital in year three. Team is plenty good, has experience on both sides of the ball and has a pretty favourable slate. It's not Rose bowl or bust, but win the non con games, have a winning record in the Big Ten, seems reasonable.

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"I'm a huge supporter of Fleck, and I think last year I laid out what I thought was a reasonable plan of improvement. People scoffed because they want immediate results."

NO. Not "immediate". This is Year Three, not Day One. And I, too am a huge Fleck supporter. I have faith in his ability to achieve his own goals. That's all I'm asking for.


"People pushing for 9 or 10 wins or else it's a disappointment are setting themselves up for disappointment."

Hmmm. Not sure why you're worried about other people being 'disappointed'.


"People then point to the season Claeys had as if that was some plateau we were riding."

NO. People point to Claeys' 9-win season to show that 9 wins is in fact very doable, and far from an unreasonable, pie-in-the-sky expectation.
 



Spoofin said:
Do you disagree with my opinion on this?


Speaking of subjective claims that can’t be proven.....
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1. Yes. And you must have missed the part where I pointed out how impressive it was for you to declare that differing opinions were silly.

2. It's not really that hard to find all the posts leaping to the defense of the other coaches mentioned. Heck, some of them are mine.
 

Urbandale said:
Well, let's paint a very clear picture here:

When anyone says anything negative about Mason, his defenders leap into action to protect the coach's honor.
When anyone says anything negative about Kill, his defenders leap into action to protect the coach's honor.
When anyone says anything negative about Claeys, his defenders leap into action to protect the coach's honor.
When anyone says anything negative about Brewster, his...well, there are some voices, but mostly crickets.

We've seen this give-and-take with everybody. This is nothing out of the ordinary.
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This is absolutely out of the ordinary. It has gone well beyond any coach in my 20+ years following the Gophers. It is 100% a cult of personality. He cannot even be mildly criticized. If the zealots can't find a statistic to support their claim, they'll fabricate one and use that as the truth. Perfect example from just today:


Yup, Nick, you're right. None of Fleck's predecessors ever sold the lifestyle features of Minnesota at large or the Twin Cities specifically. Never. Good call.

People act like the guy invented both football and marketing, and is the best ever at both. He's not doing anything new, unique, inventive, or special. And frankly, none of that matters as long as he wins football games (within the rules, of course).
 


this is getting too intense. I think I'll go over to the OTB and engage bga in a respectful discussion of the Mueller report.........

Seriously - we're in a real Catch-22 here. I suggest that Fleck's fans will defend him against any perceived slight - and just like that, we've got this heated back-and-forth going on. Which illustrates the strongly-held opinions on both sides.

I agree with Spoofin on this - feelings about Fleck - both positive and negative - are more intense than feelings on previous coaches. (I am excluding the off-field incident - this is about on-field coaching only). Even when people were mad about Mason's defense, or Kill's offense, it rarely got this heated.

With Fleck, everything is turned up to 11. His supporters support him more fervently, and his detractors take shots at him more intensely.

In the end, it's all just opinions. What we say, or type, will not impact the on-field performance of the team.

But, the point of a message board IS to express opinions. Somehow, we have to find a way to discuss these things without every discussion turning into a name-calling contest.
 



short ornery norwegian said:
this is getting too intense. I think I'll go over to the OTB and engage bga in a respectful discussion of the Mueller report.........

Seriously - we're in a real Catch-22 here. I suggest that Fleck's fans will defend him against any perceived slight - and just like that, we've got this heated back-and-forth going on. Which illustrates the strongly-held opinions on both sides.

I agree with Spoofin on this - feelings about Fleck - both positive and negative - are more intense than feelings on previous coaches. (I am excluding the off-field incident - this is about on-field coaching only). Even when people were mad about Mason's defense, or Kill's offense, it rarely got this heated.

With Fleck, everything is turned up to 11. His supporters support him more fervently, and his detractors take shots at him more intensely.

In the end, it's all just opinions. What we say, or type, will not impact the on-field performance of the team.

But, the point of a message board IS to express opinions. Somehow, we have to find a way to discuss these things without every discussion turning into a name-calling contest.
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Well said. Fleck is certainly more polarizing then past coaches here have been.

Usually when a new coach comes on there is a honeymoon phase where people tend to be really reserved in their opinions of the coach while they wait and see how things shake out over the first few years. That really didn't happen with Fleck for a number of posters in here. They decided the didn't like him, and nothing was going to change that opinion.

Now winning cures everything, if Fleck strings together some good seasons where the team wins or at least contends for the West title the detractors will dwindle because in the end we all want to see Gopher football succeed and if the team is winning at a high level the ones who don't like the coach won't really have a leg to stand on with complaints.

Until that day we will have the constant bickering unfortunately. There are those that will take a cheap shot at Fleck any chance they get and there will be those that will react strongly to the cheap shots. The majority of posters will fall somewhere in the middle but no one will hear them because of all the shouting from the outsides.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Well said. Fleck is certainly more polarizing then past coaches here have been.

Usually when a new coach comes on there is a honeymoon phase where people tend to be really reserved in their opinions of the coach while they wait and see how things shake out over the first few years. That really didn't happen with Fleck for a number of posters in here. They decided the didn't like him, and nothing was going to change that opinion.

Now winning cures everything, if Fleck strings together some good seasons where the team wins or at least contends for the West title the detractors will dwindle because in the end we all want to see Gopher football succeed and if the team is winning at a high level the ones who don't like the coach won't really have a leg to stand on with complaints.

Until that day we will have the constant bickering unfortunately. There are those that will take a cheap shot at Fleck any chance they get and there will be those that will react strongly to the cheap shots. The majority of posters will fall somewhere in the middle but no one will hear them because of all the shouting from the outsides.
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I think it's a combination of how people feel about PJ and quite frankly how the last regime ended. I think there's alot of blame to go around there, from the boycott, to the in season suspensions and restraining orders and how all of that was handled, and some people can't move on from that. I like to joke that it essentially ended that 12 year Mason wars, we don't bring up Mason as much these days. Someday I hope we can complain about which Florida new years bowl we got stuck in because the New years six screwed us, be nice to have first world problems

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Spoofin said:
This again? My least favorite take in GH history. The more you expect of the Gophers the more you dislike Fleck. If you expect them to succeed too much you really just want them to fail. It’s right up there with the moon landing being a hoax.

By the same argument, anyone predicting 7 or fewer wins doesn’t really believe it - they just really love PJ and are afraid to have him fail.


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I predict 7 or fewer wins and has nothing to do with what I think or don’t think of Fleck. I am certainly not afraid of having Fleck fail.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Well said. Fleck is certainly more polarizing then past coaches here have been.

Usually when a new coach comes on there is a honeymoon phase where people tend to be really reserved in their opinions of the coach while they wait and see how things shake out over the first few years. That really didn't happen with Fleck for a number of posters in here. They decided the didn't like him, and nothing was going to
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I think there were many that also instantly loved him too. Like you said, polarizing.

I am in the camp that likes him (I think our future is bright), but also think it's fair to criticize him from time to time. He's not infallible. I was the same way with previous coaches.
 

Word said:
I think there were many that also instantly loved him too. Like you said, polarizing.

I am in the camp that likes him (I think our future is bright), but also think it's fair to criticize him from time to time. He's not infallible. I was the same way with previous coaches.
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Yours is a very sensible take on this particular subject. Well said.
 

scools12 said:
I predict 7 or fewer wins and has nothing to do with what I think or don’t think of Fleck. I am certainly not afraid of having Fleck fail.
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Exactly my point. Thanks!


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MNVCGUY said:
Well said. Fleck is certainly more polarizing then past coaches here have been.

Usually when a new coach comes on there is a honeymoon phase where people tend to be really reserved in their opinions of the coach while they wait and see how things shake out over the first few years. <b>That really didn't happen with Fleck for a number of posters in here. They decided the didn't like him, and nothing was going to change that opinion.</b>
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Summary: Good points SON, BUT it is still those I don’t agree with causing all the trouble.


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Word said:
I think there were many that also instantly loved him too. Like you said, polarizing.

I am in the camp that likes him (I think our future is bright), but also think it's fair to criticize him from time to time. He's not infallible. I was the same way with previous coaches.
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He had me at breakfast...
 


scools12 said:
No it wasn’t your point.


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You may want to read that post again. Slower. Maybe much slower.


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