Charley Walters: Tubby Smith's status could come to a head

[BigGopherFan]

Mike Krzyzewski: 6-8, 4-10, 3-11 in 1981-83 at Duke
Walter Meanwell: 4-8, 3-9, 4-8 in 1931-33 at Wisconsin
Tex Winter: 3-11, 4-14, 7-11, 4-14, 4-14 in 1974-78 at Northwestern
Henry Iba: 2-12, 2-12, 3-11, 5-9, 5-9 in 1966-70 at Ok St.
Don Haskins: 3-11, 2-12, 3-9 in 1977-79 at UTEP
Slats Gill: 6-10, 3-13, 6-10 in 1951-53 at Oregon St.
Doggie Julian: 4-10, 3-11, 2-12, 0-14, 1-13, 0-14, 1-13 in 1961-67 at Dartmouth
Jack Gardner: 2-8, 3-7, 3-7, 3-7 in 1940-42, 1947 at Kansas St.

Shall I keep going?

You love Tubby Smith don't you chief?

 

[dpodoll68]

You love Tubby Smith don't you chief?

I sure do, "chief". Then again, I am an actual fan of the Gophers and not a pretend one.

That aside, I don't see what either of these things has to do with disproving a factually incorrect statement.

 

[Clem's Gophers]

disproving a factually incorrect statement.

Get over it. Who cares.

 

[dpodoll68]

Get over it. Who cares.

I do. That's why I corrected it. Who cares that you don't care?

 

[brucekaupa]

please do since you have the stats. I think the Krzyzewski guy has turned things around at Duke.

But to be fair, in the 3 years prior to K taking over at Duke, they were an NCAA Finalist, NCAA participant and NCAA Elite Eight.

Then K took them into the gutter for three seasons.

Only THEN did he win 4 NCAA championships, appear in 11 Final Fours, 20 Sweet Sixteens, blah blah blah.

No pain, no gain!

 

[CrocShots]

This is really getting old. Most of the basketball board is made up of the same circular arguments used by both sides. No one is going to convince me that Tubby should be fired, and surely no one is going to convince the loud trio in every thread to keep him. Seriously, let's get on with the next opponent already. I wish we could just merge all of the Tubby firing threads together so all of the points pro and con can be in one place, so I don't have to read it.

It doesn't help that this is the only topic the columnists are willing to write about (same with the football board under brew).

 

[Deleted_User]

Go Gophers!

 

[exiledinduluth]

I do. That's why I corrected it. Who cares that you don't care?

I care that you all care!!! Go Gophers!....I think almost all of us here are Gopher fans, and then I get to learn things from the masters of this board. I just don't think that a Hall of Fame crown and extension are warranted (yet?).

 

[dpodoll68]

Frankly, I would be surprised if Tubby ever does get elected to the HOF. However, there are many current HOFers whose highs were not as high and whose lows were much lower.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Frankly, I would be surprised if Tubby ever does get elected to the HOF. However, there are many current HOFers whose highs were not as high and whose lows were much lower.

In the nine seasons after winning the National Championship in 1979, Jud Heathcote's teams went a combined 67-95 in conference play. This is not a knock on Heathcote by any means, just that many Hall of Fame coaches have had some bad stretches. If Tubby can turn our program around, I think he has a shot.

 

[BigGopherFan]

Frankly, I would be surprised if Tubby ever does get elected to the HOF. However, there are many current HOFers whose highs were not as high and whose lows were much lower.

THESE ARE FOR dipodoll68 ONLY:
1. Outside of his first season, how many Final Fours did he reach at the EASIEST place to recruit in the nation in NINE years?
2. How many national titles did he win with players he actually recruited?
3. How many NCAA Tournament games has he won at Minnesota?
4. What is his Big Ten winning PCT at Minnesota?
5. What is his record against Wisconsin?
6. What is his record at home that past two seasons in conference games?
7. How many players have absolutely blossomed at Minnesota under his tutelage at Minnesota?
8. How many players have transferred since he started at Minnesota?
9. How many top 150 players are signed for next season?

 

[zambam]

THESE ARE FOR dipodoll68 ONLY:

So you're afraid to argue with anyone else? Besides half your points have nothing to do with what he said.

 

[Parski1]

If he were to turn it around, maybe you can make the case that he is a "good" coach. If he does get a couple more years, and fails to do so, do you think you might possibly finally re-evaluate that notion?

Sure, of course. As of now I believe he can coach these young players up. The departures and injuries were not a result of his coaching.

 

[howieramone]

Sure, of course. As of now I believe he can coach these young players up. The departures and injuries were not a result of his coaching.

+1

 

[Winasota Gopher]

Sure, of course. As of now I believe he can coach these young players up. The departures and injuries were not a result of his coaching.

Curious as to why you believe he can coach young players up. Who in the current system has he shown he can "coach up". Rodney Williams was a consensus 1st round pick (lottery even) when he first laced up for the Gophers, hes arguably a late 2nd round pick now. Ralph Sampson was arguably better as a freshman than he was as a Senior. Al Nolan was the same type of player as a freshman as he was when he graduated, still couldn't shoot, still lacked the game management skills you would expect from a senior Big 10 Point Guard. Westbrook changed slightly for the better, but Tubby was unable to reel in his erratic tendencies. Colton Iverson was the same lumbering big man as a freshman as he was when he left last year, still had no left hand, still couldn't pass. Hoffarber even didn't grow as a player, sure he shot better as a Junior and Senior, but I cant honestly attribute that to coach changing something in his shot, thats reps in the gym more than anything right? I cannot think of one solid example of where there was an individual on a Tubby team that GREW as a player and improved their game because of his coaching ability.

That said, why do you feel Tubby is going to be able to get Austin Hollins to be confident with his dribble and actually be able to handle the ball through traffic? Why do you think that Joe Colman will develop a jump shot? Andre Hollins is going to learn how to manage a team and late game situations because Tubby did such a great job teaching his predecessors this skill??? I think every player that has upside on this roster we've had someone who was very similar in the past that Tubby has failed to coach up already. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

I also agree that the departures were not a result of his coaching, but I'm assuming you also feel they we are not to blame him or hold them against him? Tubby still recruited those kids, and if he didn't know they would have personality clashes or off the court issues thats still on Tubby because he didn't do his homework. Just like a manager is ultimately responsible for the actions of his employees, the coach is responsible for the players he brings in and how well they develop. Both of which Tubby is not getting rave reviews about.

I don't like Tubby as a coach, I don't like the personality of this team or the culture of the program he creates. That said, I'm afraid of the unknown and will hang onto the fact that Tubby is supposed to be a National Championship coach, and thats better than 100% of the replacements we are going to be able to hire. I just wish we could get someone in here to coach Tubby on how to coach teenagers, as I think thats our biggest opportunity...

 

[matt]

Rodney Williams was a consensus 1st round pick (lottery even) when he first laced up for the Gophers, hes arguably a late 2nd round pick now.

Agenda much? I stopped reading after this.

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

I made it to where he had Nolan instead of Nolen.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Curious as to why you believe he can coach young players up. Who in the current system has he shown he can "coach up". Rodney Williams was a consensus 1st round pick (lottery even) when he first laced up for the Gophers, hes arguably a late 2nd round pick now. Ralph Sampson was arguably better as a freshman than he was as a Senior. Al Nolan was the same type of player as a freshman as he was when he graduated, still couldn't shoot, still lacked the game management skills you would expect from a senior Big 10 Point Guard. Westbrook changed slightly for the better, but Tubby was unable to reel in his erratic tendencies. Colton Iverson was the same lumbering big man as a freshman as he was when he left last year, still had no left hand, still couldn't pass. Hoffarber even didn't grow as a player, sure he shot better as a Junior and Senior, but I cant honestly attribute that to coach changing something in his shot, thats reps in the gym more than anything right? I cannot think of one solid example of where there was an individual on a Tubby team that GREW as a player and improved their game because of his coaching ability.

Some players have developed, some haven't. You're probably right about guys like Sampson, Williams, and Iverson. But I don't know how you can say guys like Hoffarber, Westbrook, and Damien Johnson didn't develop over their career. Al Nolen was never going to be a good shooter. He was brought in to run the point and play good defense and he did that. It's hard to really gauge if he did develop much or not since he didn't play a lot his last two years.

That said, why do you feel Tubby is going to be able to get Austin Hollins to be confident with his dribble and actually be able to handle the ball through traffic? Why do you think that Joe Colman will develop a jump shot? Andre Hollins is going to learn how to manage a team and late game situations because Tubby did such a great job teaching his predecessors this skill??? I think every player that has upside on this roster we've had someone who was very similar in the past that Tubby has failed to coach up already. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

Austin Hollins improved a bunch from last year to this year. If you can't see that, then you haven't been paying attention. I think you're being a little over the top about the "coach up" thing. Just because guys like Hoffarber, Westbrook, or Nolen didn't turn out as well as you'd hoped, doesn't mean they weren't "coached up".

I also agree that the departures were not a result of his coaching, but I'm assuming you also feel they we are not to blame him or hold them against him? Tubby still recruited those kids, and if he didn't know they would have personality clashes or off the court issues thats still on Tubby because he didn't do his homework. Just like a manager is ultimately responsible for the actions of his employees, the coach is responsible for the players he brings in and how well they develop. Both of which Tubby is not getting rave reviews about.

I agree that all of this has happened under his watch, so he should get some blame for it. But to say he should have known a guy like Joseph would have issues as a junior when he was recruiting him is ridiculous. You can do all the homework you want, but it's pretty hard to predict what a kid might be like or do several years down the road.

Ultimately, next year will be a huge year for Tubby and the program IMO. We have to make strides or else I do think it's time to look elsewhere.

 

[station19]

Ultimately, next year will be a huge year for Tubby and the program IMO. We have to make strides or else I do think it's time to look elsewhere.

What is the benchmark for next year. I'm curious what people think will constitute a successful season in terms of B1G record and/or amount of wins in NCAA tournament.

 

[GophersInIowa]

What is the benchmark for next year. I'm curious what people think will constitute a successful season in terms of B1G record and/or amount of wins in NCAA tournament.

As for me, I think an NCAA tourney appearance at least gets him another year. After that, it's all about making some kind of progress. If we go 9-9 next year and lose in the 1st round of the tourney, then follow it up by going 7-11 or something, it will be time to part ways IMO.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

What is the benchmark for next year. I'm curious what people think will constitute a successful season in terms of B1G record and/or amount of wins in NCAA tournament.

For me it is NCAA tourney or bust. If we don't at least make the round of 32, I will be upset with where the program is at in terms of thinking about 6 years into Tubby-time without a tournament win but will still recognize just making the tournament as improvement from the last two years. I guess in terms of B1G record, whatever it takes to get us into the tourney. If this is an NIT or worse team next year, I think I will be at a point where I have no faith in Tubby.

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

I'd like to see improvement throughout the year. A winning record in the B1G, a couple of wins in the conference tourney and culminating in an NCAA appearance and at least a win in that. That's my wish list for next year. Hopefully I'm not asking for too much.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

I'd like to see improvement throughout the year.

+1

Feeling like we are entering the conference tourney with a worse team than we entered February with is very frustrating.

 

[howieramone]

+1

Feeling like we are entering the conference tourney with a worse team than we entered February with is very frustrating.

nm

 

[bga1]

For me it is NCAA tourney or bust. If we don't at least make the round of 32, I will be upset with where the program is at in terms of thinking about 6 years into Tubby-time without a tournament win but will still recognize just making the tournament as improvement from the last two years. I guess in terms of B1G record, whatever it takes to get us into the tourney. If this is an NIT or worse team next year, I think I will be at a point where I have no faith in Tubby.

I agree with that benchmark plus one other - he has to sign a strong recruiting class in the Fall. There has to be a reason for optimism going forward and also something to sell the great Jones, Vaughn, etc class that comes the following year.

 

[Whathavewedone]

Agenda much? I stopped reading after this.

Can't speak to his agenda, CAN speak to reality. Tubby doesn't develop players.
And while that's a subject judgement, I'd like to know exactly what (or to whom)
you can point to to make a case for the opposite? Looking at his time here,
and his decade at Kentucky, and it's a litany of players improved only about as
much as a little maturity, and an adjutment to college life, allowed, IF they improved
at all.

 

[Whathavewedone]

I'd like to see improvement throughout the year. A winning record in the B1G, a couple of wins in the conference tourney and culminating in an NCAA appearance and at least a win in that. That's my wish list for next year. Hopefully I'm not asking for too much.

At this point, not going BACKWARD, as opposed to improving trough the year, would be a change. Does it possibly raise the possibility that players are better off by getting away from Tubby for the offseason?

 

[CentralGopher]

Curious as to why you believe he can coach young players up. Who in the current system has he shown he can "coach up". Rodney Williams was a consensus 1st round pick (lottery even) when he first laced up for the Gophers, hes arguably a late 2nd round pick now. Ralph Sampson was arguably better as a freshman than he was as a Senior. Al Nolan was the same type of player as a freshman as he was when he graduated, still couldn't shoot, still lacked the game management skills you would expect from a senior Big 10 Point Guard. Westbrook changed slightly for the better, but Tubby was unable to reel in his erratic tendencies. Colton Iverson was the same lumbering big man as a freshman as he was when he left last year, still had no left hand, still couldn't pass. Hoffarber even didn't grow as a player, sure he shot better as a Junior and Senior, but I cant honestly attribute that to coach changing something in his shot, thats reps in the gym more than anything right? I cannot think of one solid example of where there was an individual on a Tubby team that GREW as a player and improved their game because of his coaching ability.

That said, why do you feel Tubby is going to be able to get Austin Hollins to be confident with his dribble and actually be able to handle the ball through traffic? Why do you think that Joe Colman will develop a jump shot? Andre Hollins is going to learn how to manage a team and late game situations because Tubby did such a great job teaching his predecessors this skill??? I think every player that has upside on this roster we've had someone who was very similar in the past that Tubby has failed to coach up already. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

I also agree that the departures were not a result of his coaching, but I'm assuming you also feel they we are not to blame him or hold them against him? Tubby still recruited those kids, and if he didn't know they would have personality clashes or off the court issues thats still on Tubby because he didn't do his homework. Just like a manager is ultimately responsible for the actions of his employees, the coach is responsible for the players he brings in and how well they develop. Both of which Tubby is not getting rave reviews about.

I don't like Tubby as a coach, I don't like the personality of this team or the culture of the program he creates. That said, I'm afraid of the unknown and will hang onto the fact that Tubby is supposed to be a National Championship coach, and thats better than 100% of the replacements we are going to be able to hire. I just wish we could get someone in here to coach Tubby on how to coach teenagers, as I think thats our biggest opportunity...

I feel bad for you. Are you on medication of some kind for that depression?

 

[howieramone]

I agree with that benchmark plus one other - he has to sign a strong recruiting class in the Fall. There has to be a reason for optimism going forward and also something to sell the great Jones, Vaughn, etc class that comes the following year.

I agree. Once we ride the sophomore class to be as far as they will take us, this Fall's group should be the next wave. Assume we sign a big, PG and wing.

Can't help noticing we have 2 posters dedicated to keeping us up to date on Buggs. Not sure Tubby will ever statisfy the star gazers, but his Fall recruits have always been solid.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

Agenda much? I stopped reading after this.

Agenda? And what would that be? The only agenda I have here is that I don't think Tubby is a great coach, plain and simple. How can you argue the fact that Rodney was once considered a top flight athlete and a shoe in for the first round of the NBA and now he is returning for his senior year to work on things that were evident flaws in his game when he GOT to college.... Sure he has developed as a player mentally, but can anyone honestly say he is 1/5th of what we thought he would/could be after we saw the type of athleticism he was blessed with? Has he improved skill wise? Can he dribble? I'll conceded his shot has gotten better, but thats about it.

I made it to where he had Nolan instead of Nolen.

My mistake.... starting to understand the negative perception some have of this forum...smh

Some players have developed, some haven't. You're probably right about guys like Sampson, Williams, and Iverson. But I don't know how you can say guys like Hoffarber, Westbrook, and Damien Johnson didn't develop over their career. Al Nolen was never going to be a good shooter. He was brought in to run the point and play good defense and he did that. It's hard to really gauge if he did develop much or not since he didn't play a lot his last two years.

DJ is one of the exceptions, he was a Coach Mo recruit, correct? However, he definitely developed/flourished under Tubbys defensive mindset. Hoff and Westbrook I think are more products of natural maturation and growing into their bodies than any significant coaching job. They both had significant warts in their game when they arrived, and Tubby did little to change that, so no I cannot say that he did a great coaching job with either one of them. To use the excuse that Nolen was never going to be a good shooter is quite weak. So he came to the team as a point guard that had good handles with a quick first step, one that the defense needed to have little respect for, and he left exactly the same. No improvement to the outside game, and probably regressed as a finisher.

Austin Hollins improved a bunch from last year to this year. If you can't see that, then you haven't been paying attention. I think you're being a little over the top about the "coach up" thing. Just because guys like Hoffarber, Westbrook, or Nolen didn't turn out as well as you'd hoped, doesn't mean they weren't "coached up".

I cannot recall saying Austin Hollins didn't improve. The only thing I'm saying is that there is a history of Tubby not doing anything to cover up the deficiencies of many of the recruits he has. Hollins and his inability to dribble through traffic is a problem right now, I was asking why someone thought Tubby could coach him, Coleman and Andre past their issues? You are probably correct in that I created these lofty expectations when I saw some of the talent Tubby recruited in his beginning years, but I think thats natural and its what was sold to us in Tubby. He was this big time coach that we got, this elite basketball mind, I'm sorry I'm just not seeing it. Is it wrong of me to expect Andre Hollins to become a slashing game changing point guard? I know I've read the description of his potential described exactly that way on this board. What if it doesn't happen whose fault is it?

I agree that all of this has happened under his watch, so he should get some blame for it. But to say he should have known a guy like Joseph would have issues as a junior when he was recruiting him is ridiculous. You can do all the homework you want, but it's pretty hard to predict what a kid might be like or do several years down the road.

If you think Joseph's issues only manifested themselves as a Junior, to steal a line from your post, "you haven't been paying much attention". There were many murmurs around the Twin Cities that Devoe and Coach didn't see eye to eye as early as the beginning of his sophomore year. Tubby's fault, all of it, even if "it's difficult to predict down the future"

I feel bad for you. Are you on medication of some kind for that depression?

I don't even know how to respond to that?