CBS: It may be time for the Big Ten, SEC to poach the Big 12 again

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GopherHomer said:
+1000. I have zero interest in teams that we can't expect to beat on a consistent basis...and I really don't understand the counter-argument. Give me 3 cupcakes in the non-conference and try our best to get to 6-8 wins overall after that, and call it a life. The economics of college football have been set - there is no growing above your place anymore...there is too much knowledge and consciousness out there. We will forever hover between lower-middle class and upper-middle class as football program.

But, it's not like I have completely given up on our potential. I have always said Iowa and Wisconsin is what we need to compare ourselves to - and there is a lot of improvement that can be made in that regard. Just, please, stop talking about 'helmet' schools - we will never be one. Modern society has settled in, and it is permanent.

Not that schools, or anybody, could have known this but you basically needed to become a power by the late '90s if you ever wanted to be one. There was a time where you could 'out work' people and surprise, but now everybody works at the highest capacity leaving outliers a thing of the past. Baring a catastrophic change in society (Trump? but I can't see how that would benefit a sane state like MN) there will be no movement in the 'Powers That Be.' There is room for one 'upstart' team in the Upper Mid-West so perhaps we could replace Wisconsin as the team nobody says they want to play, but they never fear them...ever.
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Most of this post makes no sense.
 


GopherHomer said:
+1000. I have zero interest in teams that we can't expect to beat on a consistent basis...and I really don't understand the counter-argument. Give me 3 cupcakes in the non-conference and try our best to get to 6-8 wins overall after that, and call it a life. The economics of college football have been set - there is no growing above your place anymore...there is too much knowledge and consciousness out there. We will forever hover between lower-middle class and upper-middle class as football program.

But, it's not like I have completely given up on our potential. I have always said Iowa and Wisconsin is what we need to compare ourselves to - and there is a lot of improvement that can be made in that regard. Just, please, stop talking about 'helmet' schools - we will never be one. Modern society has settled in, and it is permanent.

Not that schools, or anybody, could have known this but you basically needed to become a power by the late '90s if you ever wanted to be one. There was a time where you could 'out work' people and surprise, but now everybody works at the highest capacity leaving outliers a thing of the past. Baring a catastrophic change in society (Trump? but I can't see how that would benefit a sane state like MN) there will be no movement in the 'Powers That Be.' There is room for one 'upstart' team in the Upper Mid-West so perhaps we could replace Wisconsin as the team nobody says they want to play, but they never fear them...ever.
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There is no reason why we can't be a top 20-30 team consistently, none. Stanford was up and down in the late 90s and sucked in the mid 2000s, MSU was basically a .500 team from 1991 - 2007.
 


PMWinSTP said:
Wow, seriously?
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Yes.
Don't really see a counter argument other than money (none of which I see).

If we add Texas and Oklahoma....I guess we see Texas and Oklahoma every other year. But that just means we see Michigan, Ohio state, penn state, Michigan state less.


Has Indiana played in TCF stadium yet? I'm a big ten fan, not a big 8 fan.
 


The Gophers need a big break in the worst way.

Turning the programs starts with a B1G West Title.
 

Some guy said:
Yes.
Don't really see a counter argument other than money (none of which I see).

If we add Texas and Oklahoma....I guess we see Texas and Oklahoma every other year. But that just means we see Michigan, Ohio state, penn state, Michigan state less.


Has Indiana played in TCF stadium yet? I'm a big ten fan, not a big 8 fan.
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Argument is this...consolidation is going to happen. Can be proactive on B1G terms or reactive. Make it happen, wait and pick from what's left, or let it happen to you. Your argument for not doing it is you don't want tougher competition? Rising tide raises all boats, better competition means Gophers get better.
 

PMWinSTP said:
Argument is this...consolidation is going to happen. Can be proactive on B1G terms or reactive. Make it happen, wait and pick from what's left, or let it happen to you. Your argument for not doing it is you don't want tougher competition? Rising tide raises all boats, better competition means Gophers get better.
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Consolidation is not a definite thing. Everyone says 4 16 team conferences. Could just as easily be 4 14 team conferences. To jump to 16 for the sake of jumping makes no sense. I don't know anything about the numbers. I would imagine adding Texas and Oklahoma would add money. But adding two random would not.


A rising tide raises all boats?
How did Minnesota get better when Michigan state joined the conference....no wait?

A rising tide might raise all boats financially. I don't watch college football because I want the u of m to make money.
 

Some guy said:
Consolidation is not a definite thing. Everyone says 4 16 team conferences. Could just as easily be 4 14 team conferences. To jump to 16 for the sake of jumping makes no sense. I don't know anything about the numbers. I would imagine adding Texas and Oklahoma would add money. But adding two random would not.


A rising tide raises all boats?
How did Minnesota get better when Michigan state joined the conference....no wait?

A rising tide might raise all boats financially. I don't watch college football because I want the u of m to make money.
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Yeah, 1953, a little before my time, but pretty sure the Gophers got better in the years that followed.
 



Some guy said:
Consolidation is not a definite thing. Everyone says 4 16 team conferences. Could just as easily be 4 14 team conferences. To jump to 16 for the sake of jumping makes no sense. I don't know anything about the numbers. I would imagine adding Texas and Oklahoma would add money. But adding two random would not.


A rising tide raises all boats?
How did Minnesota get better when Michigan state joined the conference....no wait?

A rising tide might raise all boats financially. I don't watch college football because I want the u of m to make money.
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There are currently 64 teams that make up the top 5 conference (Big Ten, Big 12, ACC, SEC, and Pac 12). I think that is why most expect there to be 4 conferences of 16 teams, not 14.
 

As far as AAU membership goes, Nebraska lost it's AAU standing when the AAU stopped including USDA grants as research criteria for inclusion. This, along with their Medical School being a separate entity cost them their membership.

Big 12 schools that meet the requirement consist of Texas, Kansas and Iowa State. I did not see any other schools listed from the Big 12 on the AAU website. Iowa St. and Texas would be interesting additions and help to balance out the east and west. Kansas and Texas would make the west much harder in basketball.

Pittsburgh was the school I thought would fit in well with the B1G as they are geographically well situated and are an AAU member.
 

Otis said:
As far as AAU membership goes, Nebraska lost it's AAU standing when the AAU stopped including USDA grants as research criteria for inclusion. This, along with their Medical School being a separate entity cost them their membership.

Big 12 schools that meet the requirement consist of Texas, Kansas and Iowa State. I did not see any other schools listed from the Big 12 on the AAU website. Iowa St. and Texas would be interesting additions and help to balance out the east and west. Kansas and Texas would make the west much harder in basketball.

Pittsburgh was the school I thought would fit in well with the B1G as they are geographically well situated and are an AAU member.
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I guess I can see Kansas and Pittsburgh being added. I could get on board with that.
 

To Gopher Homer's point: I'm not saying it's impossible for the Gophers to move up the college FB ranks. Given the right set of circumstances, I could see the program moving into a top-40 level program, with the occasional appearance in the top 25. But, in order for that to happen, the Gophers need several things to go their way. 1. better recruiting. If you want to be a top-40 program, you have to have top-40 recruiting classes, and more than one. 2. Pull off an upset (preferrably more than one). Knocking off a big name is a quick way to elevate your stature. 3. have players who can and will win conference honors. (goes hand-in-hand with recruiting - but if you want to be seen as a big-time program, you have to have big-time players who get nominated for post-season awards). 4. Get lucky every once in a while. It seems like the Gophs tend to have the big plays, funny bounces, or key penalties go against them. winning programs tend to get their share, or more than their share of the breaks. hard to quantify with stats, but it sure seems that way.
 



GophersInIowa said:
There are currently 64 teams that make up the top 5 conference (Big Ten, Big 12, ACC, SEC, and Pac 12). I think that is why most expect there to be 4 conferences of 16 teams, not 14.
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I get that, but who is adding Iowa state? Who is adding Texas Tech, Baylor, and TCU?
If BYU, Cincinatti, Memphis, and Houston join the big 12 do we go to 4 17 team conferences in the consolidation?


Who of the ACC, Big 10, Pac 12, and ACC would be forced to lose money by taking Iowa state and Kansas state?

The schools in the strongest 3 conferences hold the cards...I doubt they'll give charity for the sake of keeping all 64 happy.
 

Some guy said:
I get that, but who is adding Iowa state? Who is adding Texas Tech, Baylor, and TCU?
If BYU, Cincinatti, Memphis, and Houston join the big 12 do we go to 4 17 team conferences in the consolidation?


Who of the ACC, Big 10, Pac 12, and ACC would be forced to lose money by taking Iowa state and Kansas state?

The schools in the strongest 3 conferences hold the cards...I doubt they'll give charity for the sake of keeping all 64 happy.
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I'm guessing Iowa and Kansas would be willing to vouch for their fellow state schools. Iowa should have enough football clout to have some sway, and Kansas will have the same or greater pull because of basketball.
 

PMWinSTP said:
Yeah, 1953, a little before my time, but pretty sure the Gophers got better in the years that followed.
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The gophers got so much better that they had 6 national titles before Michigan state was added and 3 conference titles in the years that followed.



Before 1953 the gophers had 27 top 3 finishes in the conference (48.2%) out of 56 seasons
After 1953 the gophers have had 7 top 3 in the conference finishes (11.3%) out of 62 seasons
Since Penn state was added the gophers have 0 top 3 finishes.

The rising tide is swamping the boat.
 

Ski U Master said:
I'm guessing Iowa and Kansas would be willing to vouch for their fellow state schools. Iowa should have enough football clout to have some sway, and Kansas will have the same or greater pull because of basketball.
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What sway does Iowa have to convince the Pac 12 or SEC to take in Iowa state.
How much sway does Iowa have to convince the other 13 big ten schools who likely want no part in Iowa state joining?


Who wins if given an ultimatum? Big Ten tells Kansas it is them alone getting an offer or take it or leave it. Kansas demands big ten takes Kansas State too. Who blinks first. I'll give you a hint, it is Kansas.
 


Some guy said:
What sway does Iowa have to convince the Pac 12 or SEC to take in Iowa state.
How much sway does Iowa have to convince the other 13 big ten schools who likely want no part in Iowa state joining?


Who wins if given an ultimatum? Big Ten tells Kansas it is them alone getting an offer or take it or leave it. Kansas demands big ten takes Kansas State too. Who blinks first. I'll give you a hint, it is Kansas.
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A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
Other conference's response after Iowa tells them they should take Iowa State:
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Relationships still hold some sway in CFB, you both could be right but to think there is no possibility a conference takes on those teams that might be net drain is foolish.
 

Some guy said:
The gophers got so much better that they had 6 national titles before Michigan state was added and 3 conference titles in the years that followed.



Before 1953 the gophers had 27 top 3 finishes in the conference (48.2%) out of 56 seasons
After 1953 the gophers have had 7 top 3 in the conference finishes (11.3%) out of 62 seasons
Since Penn state was added the gophers have 0 top 3 finishes.

The rising tide is swamping the boat.
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Hmmm...the way, way back machine, I see. Apples to oranges. You can have the Big 8 and those memories, the rest of us will live in the reality of today...with a glass half full mentality.
 

PMWinSTP said:
Hmmm...the way, way back machine, I see. Apples to oranges. You can have the Big 8 and those memories, the rest of us will live in the reality of today...with a glass half full mentality.
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Some call it glass half empty. Others call it reality.
 

Ski U Master said:
Relationships still hold some sway in CFB, you both could be right but to think there is no possibility a conference takes on those teams that might be net drain is foolish.
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Foolish is thinking major colleges will give Iowa state charity just because Iowa thinks they should
 

Some guy said:
Foolish is thinking major colleges will give Iowa state charity just because Iowa thinks they should
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Agree. I think that's the fallacy of the 4X16 conference assumption. At least half the members of the Big 12 add nothing to any other conference. Do you think Texas cable networks would pay full price to add BTN if the B1G added Texas Tech??? If I was a betting man, I'd see the top tier exploring other conferences. Leave all the schools that should be mid-majors behind. I just don't see any major conference adding an ISU or KSU just so they can have 16 teams. There really is no upside unless something changes with Championship selection that favors a 16 team conference (get to have a four team conference playoff with 16 teams, for example, winner gets an automatic playoff bid).

I don't see why the B1G needs to expand even if ACC and Pac12 take the prime schools to become 16 team conferences. Just because other conferences do it, what advantage would it give the B1G? The only way it makes sense is if they are already considering it and the schools they are targeting could be affected or could be more interested now.
 


Ski U Master said:
I'm guessing Iowa and Kansas would be willing to vouch for their fellow state schools. Iowa should have enough football clout to have some sway, and Kansas will have the same or greater pull because of basketball.
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Not even for a minute. There is no "vouching" needed, necessary, or even done. This isn't a job interview, this is a company merger. Can't even fathom a vouching scenario.
 

So if ISU/KSU add no value and will be left out, what's to stop the B1G from removing MN or Purdue or NW at some point? Obviously the TV market in the Twin Cities is an asset, but from a competitive stand point MN brings little to the table in football and basketball, and B1G hockey is a bad joke.
 

Ski U Master said:
So if ISU/KSU add no value and will be left out, what's to stop the B1G from removing MN or Purdue or NW at some point? Obviously the TV market in the Twin Cities is an asset, but from a competitive stand point MN brings little to the table in football and basketball, and B1G hockey is a bad joke.
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The B1G will never kick out founding members (or anyone for that matter). What's possible, although not likely, is that Michigan, Ohio St and Penn St. could all leave to join some eastern conference. Unlikely though. The problem for Iowa St, Kansas St, and Oklahoma St. is they don't add money to any league's television package. Houston, Texas Tech or Baylor would all be more valuable to the Big Ten (not that we'd entertain picking any of them up). Colorado is AAU and would fit geographically and Denver isn't a bad market to add. Iowa St is AAU, so they are a possibility, but they don't do much for our league. Texas does far more and watch us excuse the AAU thing to get Notre Dame in.
 

Ski U Master said:
So if ISU/KSU add no value and will be left out, what's to stop the B1G from removing MN or Purdue or NW at some point? Obviously the TV market in the Twin Cities is an asset, but from a competitive stand point MN brings little to the table in football and basketball, and B1G hockey is a bad joke.
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Kicking someone out /= not being invited to a conference.

Last time anyone was voted out was over 100 years ago...
 

Ski U Master said:
So if ISU/KSU add no value and will be left out, what's to stop the B1G from removing MN or Purdue or NW at some point? Obviously the TV market in the Twin Cities is an asset, but from a competitive stand point MN brings little to the table in football and basketball, and B1G hockey is a bad joke.
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While I don't think the big ten will ever kick people out...I do not know what the voting rules would be on removing a member. I would guess it is either unanimous, impossible, or 3/4.


If the vote is 3/4, the smaller market and smaller success schools have a huge incentive to not ever allow enough new members in that would put their own membership at risk in a vote.
I would guess due to the research collaboration between schools academically they will never remove a member across the board. It would be tough, Minnesota, Indiana, Iowa, and Michigan State would never vote to remove Purdue...because if Purdue left that is one less vote to protect the next one the bigger powers want gone.
 

Looked it up. It would be 70% approval. So as long as you have a block of 5 schools you can prevent being voted out.


If the Big Ten added Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, and Virginia....all of a sudden you have 18 schools and need a block of 6 schools to prevent being removed.


As I have said I do not think it even matters because I don't think they'll ever kick someone out. But you don't want to add too many major powers who might want to change the conference by dropping dead weight (if you consider your own school dead weight).
 

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