CBS: Grading the major hires of the 2021 college basketball coaching carousel (Ben Johnson, only hire given a C)

cjbfbp

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I think that she is referring to that you can already see a difference in recruiting of our states best players. The high school basketball coaches I've talked to see a significant difference. But if you want to be negative and whine about the hire for the next 5 years.....go ahead dude.

While there is no point in continuously whining about Ben's hire, the poster's original rhetorical question was: "So the reason he’ll be successful and the others were not is because he went to high school in Minnesota?"

There's no clear evidence so far (not that I would expect to see clear evidence at this point anyway) that his recruiting will be superlative. Even if what you're saying is true, the fact that a few Minnesota high school coaches might like him better than his predecessors doesn't mean that he will be successful. The Gophers had a coach early in this century (Monson) who recruited very heavily from the state and nabbed some very highly rated in-state players. As you'll recall, he was not very successful.

I don't like the pointless carping about Ben's hire very much but I find the rose colored glasses worn by some to be equally annoying. As a preliminary grade based on prior accomplishments (which is all you can really do with a brand new coach), I think a "C" grade for this hire is more than fair.
 

Cayman

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I’m just reporting stuff…you like to spin everything. In the 247 ratings you refer to: 6 of the 7 guys I listed are in the “new Top 150. Payne is at 150. Carrington is not listed at this time.
There isn’t really a new top 150. Eric Bossi said some top 150 guys reclassified and so they just kinda crudely threw in a few more players at the bottom, Payne among them, but that Payne would be considered for 4 star status at the next actual ranking update. Incidentally, other Gopher targets Jayden Pierre and Ryan Dunn were thrown in at 148 and 149.
 

60's Guy

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Bob said: "The hiring process (everywhere) is not an exact science and there is always a degree of luck involved. You can do everything right (process-wise) and land on the wrong guy and do everything wrong and land on the best guy."
I believe Built disagreed.... While, not many professional examples readily come to mind of Bob's premise, I have seen it in coaching and in business.
Gregg Popovich certainly did not have the background to predict he'd become the winningest NBA coach.
Coaching, I have had kids who made the roster as a tail end straggler and become leading scorer, and another all conference based on their ability as a defender. In AAU, I had a player bring a friend to practice because we needed bodies. This person practiced embarrassingly on day one.
I asked them to return solely so we could scrimmage with even numbers. That person became our leading scorer. Turns out they were so nervous they had lost coordination and essentially mumbled answers.
In business, I hired someone to be a delivery person who barely spoke English, was new to the country and had no knowledge of streets and places or destinations. Best driver ever!!!

Ben could be the next John Wooden or Gregg Popovich. He now has the opportunity.
 

builtbadgers

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Bob said: "The hiring process (everywhere) is not an exact science and there is always a degree of luck involved. You can do everything right (process-wise) and land on the wrong guy and do everything wrong and land on the best guy."
I believe Built disagreed.... While, not many professional examples readily come to mind of Bob's premise, I have seen it in coaching and in business.
Gregg Popovich certainly did not have the background to predict he'd become the winningest NBA coach.
Coaching, I have had kids who made the roster as a tail end straggler and become leading scorer, and another all conference based on their ability as a defender. In AAU, I had a player bring a friend to practice because we needed bodies. This person practiced embarrassingly on day one.
I asked them to return solely so we could scrimmage with even numbers. That person became our leading scorer. Turns out they were so nervous they had lost coordination and essentially mumbled answers.
In business, I hired someone to be a delivery person who barely spoke English, was new to the country and had no knowledge of streets and places or destinations. Best driver ever!!!

Ben could be the next John Wooden or Gregg Popovich. He now has the opportunity.
Every single hire has the opportunity to be the next John Wooden or Pop, although those two jobs are so different. Ben "only" needs to be as good as Bo Ryan for the fan base to be over the moon.
 

ethomasp31

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While there is no point in continuously whining about Ben's hire, the poster's original rhetorical question was: "So the reason he’ll be successful and the others were not is because he went to high school in Minnesota?"

There's no clear evidence so far (not that I would expect to see clear evidence at this point anyway) that his recruiting will be superlative. Even if what you're saying is true, the fact that a few Minnesota high school coaches might like him better than his predecessors doesn't mean that he will be successful. The Gophers had a coach early in this century (Monson) who recruited very heavily from the state and nabbed some very highly rated in-state players. As you'll recall, he was not very successful.

I don't like the pointless carping about Ben's hire very much but I find the rose colored glasses worn by some to be equally annoying. As a preliminary grade based on prior accomplishments (which is all you can really do with a brand new coach), I think a "C" grade for this hire is more than fair.
I don't really care about the grade CBS columnist gave the hire. As far as rose colored glasses....we haven't even had a game yet. You think posters on here are wearing rose colored glasses because they aren't calling the hire a failure before we even play a game? They will be better this year than 90% of the posters on this board think. Tell me if you think that was annoying after the season.,
 


Bob_Loblaw

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Every single hire has the opportunity to be the next John Wooden or Pop, although those two jobs are so different. Ben "only" needs to be as good as Bo Ryan for the fan base to be over the moon.
That wasn't his point. His point (and so was mine) was that a bad process can lead to a good hire. It's significantly less common but it's kind of like hitting in baseball. Taking a good approach to the plate will, on average, lead to better results. But there is always a degree of luck involved.

There are tons of examples in sports of guys like Lane Kiffin getting jobs he wouldn't have but for nepotism and they turn out to be good coaches. This happens in the workforce all the time where a son works at the same company as their father and they turn out to be good at the job. The truth is, in many of the instances, they would have gotten the job regardless.

I think we can all agree that hiring people for things other than merit is not really a great process but sometimes you can still luck into good results.
 

Bob_Loblaw

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I don't really care about the grade CBS columnist gave the hire. As far as rose colored glasses....we haven't even had a game yet. You think posters on here are wearing rose colored glasses because they aren't calling the hire a failure before we even play a game? They will be better this year than 90% of the posters on this board think. Tell me if you think that was annoying after the season.,
I don't think most people are calling it a failure, they are pointing at red flags. Then Ben's white knights typically misquote those statements and essentially argue against a strawman.

As to your last point, I think many of Ben's biggest fans also think they'll lose a ton of games next year. I didn't love the hire, I don't think they'll win a lot of games next year, but I won't judge Ben on W/Ls next season. He has officially gotten me excited to watch MN ball next year with all the local guys (Battle, Fox, Sutherlin, Thompson) added and I am ecstatic with his recruiting so far.
 

ethomasp31

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I don't think most people are calling it a failure, they are pointing at red flags. Then Ben's white knights typically misquote those statements and essentially argue against a strawman.

As to your last point, I think many of Ben's biggest fans also think they'll lose a ton of games next year. I didn't love the hire, I don't think they'll win a lot of games next year, but I won't judge Ben on W/Ls next season. He has officially gotten me excited to watch MN ball next year with all the local guys (Battle, Fox, Sutherlin, Thompson) added and I am ecstatic with his recruiting so far.
I can honestly say that I think you have been more than fair with your criticism of the hire. We hired someone with zero experience as a head coach....I get it. You have also been positive about the recruitment of Payne, Carrington and others we are still recruiting or who decided to go elsewhere. Some people disappear whenever we get good news, and when the news is bad they are posting the same negative posts many times a day. It just gets old.

As far as next year, I don't expect the Gophers to approach .500 in the B1G. But I also don't think they will be historically bad either. Maybe they will struggle more than I think they will, but they could easily win between 4-7 games in the B1G....which is more than most people on this board are expecting.
 

cjbfbp

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I don't really care about the grade CBS columnist gave the hire.
Well, then why are you posting on this thread? The reactions were focused on addressing the grade given to the hire.
 



ethomasp31

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Well, then why are you posting on this thread? The reactions were focused on addressing the grade given to the hire.

I was reading the thread because I'm a Gopher basketball fan and actually cheer for the team. I responded to a comment made in the thread explaining that some fans of the team (one who made a positive comment) might feel positive about the direction of the team based on the direction recruiting has taken, especially in the state of Minnesota. I made the comment about high school coaches liking Johnson based on a conversation I had with a group of high school coaches who really liked Johnson and told me it had a different feel than what we had here the last 8 seasons.
 

UMwolverine

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Yes, he was. In the early comic strips he occasionally was depicted wearing a white hood. I read about it on social media. Lucy was justified in tormenting him.
Do you mean his ghost Halloween costume?
Yes, he was. In the early comic strips he occasionally was depicted wearing a white hood. I read about it on social media. Lucy was justified in tormenting him.
Are you talking about his Halloween ghost costume? I suppose that would fit as occasional, as in perhaps once per year.
 

cjbfbp

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Do you mean his ghost Halloween costume?

Are you talking about his Halloween ghost costume? I suppose that would fit as occasional, as in perhaps once per year.

Yes, now that I think about it, maybe that was it.
 

alchemy2u

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That wasn't his point. His point (and so was mine) was that a bad process can lead to a good hire. It's significantly less common but it's kind of like hitting in baseball. Taking a good approach to the plate will, on average, lead to better results. But there is always a degree of luck involved.

There are tons of examples in sports of guys like Lane Kiffin getting jobs he wouldn't have but for nepotism and they turn out to be good coaches. This happens in the workforce all the time where a son works at the same company as their father and they turn out to be good at the job. The truth is, in many of the instances, they would have gotten the job regardless.

I think we can all agree that hiring people for things other than merit is not really a great process but sometimes you can still luck into good results.
You sure do not like to admit you could possible be wrong or may have mis-spoke. Of course hires and organizations can sometimes succeed in spite of themselves. Incompetence, bias, lack of attention or laziness can cause people to overlook skills, attributes or an internal drive that may enable a hire to be successful. But claiming luck is a major part of a hiring practice is ludicrous.

Further more, for you or anyone to come back and claim that is was just luck if Coach Johnson becomes a very good coach for the Gophers is insulting. Coyle hired Ben with the expectations that he will be a good coach. If it comes true it will be a testament to his judgment, not luck.
 



Bob_Loblaw

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You sure do not like to admit you could possible be wrong or may have mis-spoke. Of course hires and organizations can sometimes succeed in spite of themselves. Incompetence, bias, lack of attention or laziness can cause people to overlook skills, attributes or an internal drive that may enable a hire to be successful. But claiming luck is a major part of a hiring practice is ludicrous.

Further more, for you or anyone to come back and claim that is was just luck if Coach Johnson becomes a very good coach for the Gophers is insulting. Coyle hired Ben with the expectations that he will be a good coach. If it comes true it will be a testament to his judgment, not luck.

WTF are you going on about? Where did anyone even claim that I was wrong? I said that there is an element of luck involved in every coaching hire (people working out or not) and build disagreed. Two people can disagree with neither person being wrong. You really are paranoid in your search to attempt to find a possible slight against Ben Johnson. He doesn't need a defender and if he did, it wouldn't be from someone with such atrocious reading comprehension.

I never said luck is a major part of the hiring process. Look at the f'n post of mine you're quoting. "His point (and so was mine) was that a bad process can lead to a good hire. It's significantly less common but it's kind of like hitting in baseball. Taking a good approach to the plate will, on average, lead to better results. But there is always a degree of luck involved."

As to whether or not there is a degree in luck involved for Coyle if Ben is successful. Of course there is. There is for every single coaching hire. Would it be a major portion of it? Absolutely not. He chose Ben Johnson and if you think the decision was his, he should be judged on Ben Johnson's wins and losses.

Would Ben be lucky if he is successful, absolutely not. If Ben is successful, he should get all the kudos in the world, and I'll be showering him with them. This is clearly a tough place to win.
 


builtbadgers

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WTF are you going on about? Where did anyone even claim that I was wrong? I said that there is an element of luck involved in every coaching hire (people working out or not) and build disagreed. Two people can disagree with neither person being wrong. You really are paranoid in your search to attempt to find a possible slight against Ben Johnson. He doesn't need a defender and if he did, it wouldn't be from someone with such atrocious reading comprehension.

I never said luck is a major part of the hiring process. Look at the f'n post of mine you're quoting. "His point (and so was mine) was that a bad process can lead to a good hire. It's significantly less common but it's kind of like hitting in baseball. Taking a good approach to the plate will, on average, lead to better results. But there is always a degree of luck involved."

As to whether or not there is a degree in luck involved for Coyle if Ben is successful. Of course there is. There is for every single coaching hire. Would it be a major portion of it? Absolutely not. He chose Ben Johnson and if you think the decision was his, he should be judged on Ben Johnson's wins and losses.

Would Ben be lucky if he is successful, absolutely not. If Ben is successful, he should get all the kudos in the world, and I'll be showering him with them. This is clearly a tough place to win.
No big deal that we do disagree. I have known of hires, not many that i knew were slam dunks. I was not alone in knowing that Bobby Knight would win. Every basketball mind that i knew were 100 % sold on Jay Wright winning huge and Tony Bennett was a perfect fit at UVA. Anyone who could win at WSU was a lock and even before that job coaches that had no bias. They come along very rarely but when you see it you know. Watch one Chris Beard practice and you know. They stand out , more authentic,smarter, better teachers.
 

60's Guy

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100% it is true regarding watching a coach run a practice. You can tell a lot! However, there are more parts than that too. They could be abusive, they could have extra curricular problems like Bo or Huggy Bear etc etc. Maybe they can't evaluate, maybe they don't respect and listen to their bosses...on and on. Thing is....in the hiring process you don't get to demonstrate how well you run a practice to the committee in 99% of the interviews.

In the case of Ben...if he had demonstrated that presence, that authenticity, that charismatic teaching ability the Xavier transfer portal guys would have followed him to a Big Ten step up job and a dozen Gopher players would not have transferred because by word of mouth at the very least they'd have been aware of his amazing personality and teaching ability since he was a Gopher assistant coach very recently and Gabe knew him well..

Regarding the Coyle stamp of discovery or evaluation...Coyle hired PJ, Coyle hired the hockey and softball coaches, Coyle hired Whalen...nothing about the Ben hire followed that pattern. Coyle's first words were committee, not our new coach is Ben Johnson.

Ben Johnson is the coach. Again, it is a difficult job. He could be great! But, his strongest qualification to get the job is that he is from Minnesota which makes him personable and the committee liked him.
 

builtbadgers

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100% it is true regarding watching a coach run a practice. You can tell a lot! However, there are more parts than that too. They could be abusive, they could have extra curricular problems like Bo or Huggy Bear etc etc. Maybe they can't evaluate, maybe they don't respect and listen to their bosses...on and on. Thing is....in the hiring process you don't get to demonstrate how well you run a practice to the committee in 99% of the interviews.

In the case of Ben...if he had demonstrated that presence, that authenticity, that charismatic teaching ability the Xavier transfer portal guys would have followed him to a Big Ten step up job and a dozen Gopher players would not have transferred because by word of mouth at the very least they'd have been aware of his amazing personality and teaching ability since he was a Gopher assistant coach very recently and Gabe knew him well..

Regarding the Coyle stamp of discovery or evaluation...Coyle hired PJ, Coyle hired the hockey and softball coaches, Coyle hired Whalen...nothing about the Ben hire followed that pattern. Coyle's first words were committee, not our new coach is Ben Johnson.

Ben Johnson is the coach. Again, it is a difficult job. He could be great! But, his strongest qualification to get the job is that he is from Minnesota which makes him personable and the committee liked him.
He is likable and had a lead on a fantastic assistant. The public generally does not follow the strengths of the staff but it is a giant deal. Coyle seems to have well but yet no one has won anything so far.
 




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