CBS: As black hires decline, college football needs, but can't adopt, a Rooney Rule

[Sportsfan24]

No, it's really not valid at all. There are a few posts in this thread that demonstrate a severe lack of history and social awareness.

Scher215 had a good point about black coaches being given opportunities and the chance to ascend the ranks. I don't know how that gets changed. But from a statistical standpoint it's difficult to believe that half players are black but most of them are not good coaches, while half are white and they usually make the best coaches. There are other factors at work.

For me this is an easy fix. One that black people control.

When you have the option. Do not play football for a university that has a poor track record for hiring people who look like you (black). That will correct the problem in a few recruiting cycles.

Between the schools that do hire people of color and the HBC's there are plenty of options.

 

[Sportsfan24]

You spelt "raise the most money" wrong. Which does come from wins, but a black coach can be a tougher sell to some boosters. Especially in an age where public funding typically is dropping and private money is even more important.

The other side of it is what makes a HC candidate that is the right hire? If black coaches aren't being picked as OC's, DC's, etc. as well they aren't ever getting the experience needed to be a viable HC candidate. Not sure any numbers on that, but it would be interesting to see the coordinator figures as well. If you can't get hired for the entry level job per se, you aren't ever going to even be a reasonable candidate for the big one. And why can't black coaches get the entry level job? That's where you can debate away

Great point. This also applies to GA's, if D1 schools choose to hire a white GA from a D3 school over a black athlete who had one graduate degree already and was working on a second, played D1 football at said university at an all conference level, never had any disciplinary issues............I digress. My point is it's all about opportunities given or not given.

 

[Sportsfan24]

So the rate of head coaches has recently hovered around the percent of blacks in the US and this is shameful? How silly. Is it shameful that too few Asians play D1 football?

Is someone preventing Asians from playing D1 football? Has the lack of Asians playing D1 been an issue for Asians? No? Oh I get it, you simply don't like the idea of people talking about race issues and you choose to be contrarian.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Couldn't one turn this around and say that the number of non-black players in college football is "shameful"? It's simple....hire the best , recruit the best.

Give it more thought than this. People are hiring who they BELIEVE to be the best; that's the problem.

Personally I would love for Louis Farrakhan to be in charge of a hiring search in my profession. My white counter parts might not particularly care for it.

 

[minibeaver]

True, and I dated women I believed to be attractive, charming, intelligent and a good fit for me. They all were black females. Those qualities can be found in plenty of white women....its preference and in hiring that's wrong...not to mention illegal.

What so you so don't like white chicks? ; ). Question: what percentage of black coaches is acceptable? Are you on board for an affirmative action policy for black D1 Football coaches, as you believe Schools are not being fair on their own? What percentage of black HC'S and Coordinators would you like to see in D1 Football? A percentage closer to the percentage of athletes on the field, or closer to the overall population percentage?

The story you mentioned makes me think maybe this is personal for you? As I stated before I'm willing to hear other opinions, and if presented with legit facts/proof, I'd consider changing my opinion.

One last question: for guys like Tony Dungy-a guy that many Holer's would commit ritual killings to have him coach here - what did he do to have success, to break through the wall? I know he spent his coaching time in the NFL, but I think we could admit that if he were to apply here he'd be first on the list to get hired. If Tony can break through the barrier, it makes me question what that barrier is. Could it be that it's less color driven, and more personality driven?

 

[Ignatius L Hoops]

This is a terrible comp for so many reasons.

Perhaps; but to the point (it's hard to top citing three former Gopher head coaches in three paragraphs).

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-fo...e-louisville-florida-south-carolina-longhorns

A few years earlier in 2007, after the disaster that was the fake interview at Minnesota (the Gophers hired Tim Brewster, who was fired four years later); after California told then-South Carolina coach Lou Holtz in the early 2000s they were going to hire Strong then didn’t, the reality that it might not ever happen began to set in.

“The athletic director at California told me we’re going to hire (Strong) tomorrow,” Holtz said. “I was so excited for Charlie, and then it didn’t happen. You start wondering what in the world is going on here?”

It was then that Strong, after another failed (or is that fake?) interview — Vanderbilt, California, Pittsburgh; they all run together at some point — told friend John Gutekunst he was done interviewing

 

[STPGopher]

What so you so don't like white chicks? ; ). Question: what percentage of black coaches is acceptable? Are you on board for an affirmative action policy for black D1 Football coaches, as you believe Schools are not being fair on their own? What percentage of black HC'S and Coordinators would you like to see in D1 Football? A percentage closer to the percentage of athletes on the field, or closer to the overall population percentage?

The story you mentioned makes me think maybe this is personal for you? As I stated before I'm willing to hear other opinions, and if presented with legit facts/proof, I'd consider changing my opinion.

One last question: for guys like Tony Dungy-a guy that many Holer's would commit ritual killings to have him coach here - what did he do to have success, to break through the wall? I know he spent his coaching time in the NFL, but I think we could admit that if he were to apply here he'd be first on the list to get hired. If Tony can break through the barrier, it makes me question what that barrier is. Could it be that it's less color driven, and more personality driven?

Ever heard Of Rooney? Remember Tony started at Pittsburgh...

 

[Rescooter]

Quick - everybody get into their corners.

I wish all on this board would have headed this. Like Religion and Politics, this will not get resolved on an internet board.

I know BleedGopher had good intentions by posting this, but like most discussions on this topic, it'll end up with people being offensive and polarized.

Merry Christmas to ALL and Peace out.

 

[Sportsfan24]

What so you so don't like white chicks? ; ). Question: what percentage of black coaches is acceptable? Are you on board for an affirmative action policy for black D1 Football coaches, as you believe Schools are not being fair on their own? What percentage of black HC'S and Coordinators would you like to see in D1 Football? A percentage closer to the percentage of athletes on the field, or closer to the overall population percentage?

The story you mentioned makes me think maybe this is personal for you? As I stated before I'm willing to hear other opinions, and if presented with legit facts/proof, I'd consider changing my opinion.

One last question: for guys like Tony Dungy-a guy that many Holer's would commit ritual killings to have him coach here - what did he do to have success, to break through the wall? I know he spent his coaching time in the NFL, but I think we could admit that if he were to apply here he'd be first on the list to get hired. If Tony can break through the barrier, it makes me question what that barrier is. Could it be that it's less color driven, and more personality driven?

How did Dungy break through? They named a rule after the guy who gave him an opportunity.....The Rooney rule.

Could it be less color driven and more personality driven? Nah, racism is a proven commodity.... for the most part that's what it is.

What do I think is the appropriate percentage of black coaches? Whatever we (blacks) want it to be, we have the ability to fix this without any sort of legislation. Don't play football for schools that don't hire folks who like you. It's that simple.


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[Some Day...Is Coming!]

Look, the people doing the hiring are all white. That's why there are so many white coaches. White coaches are given more opportunity than black coaches. If you don't think racism is alive and well you're crazy. Most people don't even realize they have the views they do, and why they have them. It's somewhat ingrained. It's sad, but it's true.


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[minibeaver]

How did Dungy break through? They named a rule after the guy who gave him an opportunity.....The Rooney rule.

Could it be less color driven and more personality driven? Nah, racism is a proven commodity.... for the most part that's what it is.

What do I think is the appropriate percentage of black coaches? Whatever we (blacks) want it to be, we have the ability to fix this without any sort of legislation. Don't play football for schools that don't hire folks who like you. It's that simple.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fair enough. Thanks for your perspective. Maybe I just have blinders on.

 

[tato2001]

Racism? Maybe to some extent, but I think it's explained a lot more easily than that.

The issue is a racial one, but not overt racism in hiring decisions(I believe). A much larger percentage of black football players (probably an overwhelming percentage) come out of socio-economically disadvantaged backgrounds. The odds of them 'succeeding' in general post football is almost certainly far lower than it is for white players. I'd bet there's far more former white football player accountants than there are former black football player accountants as well. Racism? Maybe in a societal structural way that makes it far harder for them to succeed in general, but I doubt it is overtly happening in hiring decisions. I'd bet that many programs would LOVE to hire black coaches, but the pool of black candidates adequately prepared to make that jump is very small, despite the many black football players.

I am on the board of a non-profit that looks to help narrow the racial achievement gap. We strive to increase diversity amongst our board members, but at our last meeting we looked at demographic info, and the percentage of the population that is both black and of a professional level that we need is absolutely tiny. And every single non-profit board is fighting over them. It doesn't let us off the hook, but it also led us to not establish diversity goals that would certainly set us up to fail. The real structural race issue is at a lower level. Black kids need to be given chances to succeed through their educational and social opportunities early in life. Today they aren't, and this naturally shows up in outcomes later in life.

 

[GoldenRodents]

Tato2001 nails the issue that is much more consequential for human development than skin color. If the norm for American black families resembled the home Tony Dungy was born into, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Is it a coincidence that Tony's brother is a dentist? The fact is, when a man and woman conceive a child apart from a life or death commitment to see the it through to a productive life they have set a cast for the child's life that is rarely broken. This is true for children of any race. Marriage is eroding among all races, so expect fewer qualified applicants for demanding jobs.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Racism? Maybe to some extent, but I think it's explained a lot more easily than that.

The issue is a racial one, but not overt racism in hiring decisions(I believe). A much larger percentage of black football players (probably an overwhelming percentage) come out of socio-economically disadvantaged backgrounds. The odds of them 'succeeding' in general post football is almost certainly far lower than it is for white players. I'd bet there's far more former white football player accountants than there are former black football player accountants as well. Racism? Maybe in a societal structural way that makes it far harder for them to succeed in general, but I doubt it is overtly happening in hiring decisions. I'd bet that many programs would LOVE to hire black coaches, but the pool of black candidates adequately prepared to make that jump is very small, despite the many black football players.

I am on the board of a non-profit that looks to help narrow the racial achievement gap. We strive to increase diversity amongst our board members, but at our last meeting we looked at demographic info, and the percentage of the population that is both black and of a professional level that we need is absolutely tiny. And every single non-profit board is fighting over them. It doesn't let us off the hook, but it also led us to not establish diversity goals that would certainly set us up to fail. The real structural race issue is at a lower level. Black kids need to be given chances to succeed through their educational and social opportunities early in life. Today they aren't, and this naturally shows up in outcomes later in life.

I think you touched on part of this touchy issue. People of all races are discriminated against for all sorts of reasons having to do with their appearance, how articulate they are, etc.

Bosses generally like people that fit into the culture of their organization and dress, look, and speak in a certain way. Many, many people disqualify themselves right out of the gate because they were raised and/or choose to look, act, and speak in ways that don't fit. Or they have a bad attitude. Some refuse to accept this reality.

Many black coaches hire black assistants. Sometimes they don't. David Shaw has a majority white staff (whites are minorities here in CA) while Charlie Strong does not.

 

[Hates Monikers]

I wish all on this board would have headed this. Like Religion and Politics, this will not get resolved on an internet board.

I know BleedGopher had good intentions by posting this, but like most discussions on this topic, it'll end up with people being offensive and polarized.

Merry Christmas to ALL and Peace out.

You mean like whether Mitch Leidner is a D-1 quarterback? Kill vs. Mason/Mason vs. Brewster? Whether we should schedule non-conference opponents like TCU rather than Western Illinois?

Sure, it's polarizing, and both sides have difficulty seeing the other's point of view. But definitely worth a discussion.

 

[Section2]

Give it more thought than this. People are hiring who they BELIEVE to be the best; that's the problem.

Personally I would love for Louis Farrakhan to be in charge of a hiring search in my profession. My white counter parts might not particularly care for it.

Yikes, you quickly went full tilt. I can't imagine living life feeling like everyone in power is a virulent racist.
Maybe you are right and everything is unfair.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Racism? Maybe to some extent, but I think it's explained a lot more easily than that.

The issue is a racial one, but not overt racism in hiring decisions(I believe). A much larger percentage of black football players (probably an overwhelming percentage) come out of socio-economically disadvantaged backgrounds. The odds of them 'succeeding' in general post football is almost certainly far lower than it is for white players. I'd bet there's far more former white football player accountants than there are former black football player accountants as well. Racism? Maybe in a societal structural way that makes it far harder for them to succeed in general, but I doubt it is overtly happening in hiring decisions. I'd bet that many programs would LOVE to hire black coaches, but the pool of black candidates adequately prepared to make that jump is very small, despite the many black football players.

I am on the board of a non-profit that looks to help narrow the racial achievement gap. We strive to increase diversity amongst our board members, but at our last meeting we looked at demographic info, and the percentage of the population that is both black and of a professional level that we need is absolutely tiny. And every single non-profit board is fighting over them. It doesn't let us off the hook, but it also led us to not establish diversity goals that would certainly set us up to fail. The real structural race issue is at a lower level. Black kids need to be given chances to succeed through their educational and social opportunities early in life. Today they aren't, and this naturally shows up in outcomes later in life.

Overtly? Signs saying blacks need not apply stop appearing years ago. What was overt 30 years ago no longer exists today, it's illegal. The lack of black coaches in college football is today's overt racism.

The fact your organization has to look at demographic info (insert shaking my head) in an effort to come up with board members is telling. I was on a golf trip 3 months ago with 30 professional black men. Hell, my contact list in my phone contains several hundred black professionals. Your organization can't find one or two? Don't you have any professional black friends? I'm sure thats how the bulk of your board came to be hired. That's how I came to serve on the 2 non profit boards I serve on....a friend asked if I would be interested.

I digress. This ***t ain't difficult if the goal is to promote change (remember I think black folks can fix this one) then mandate change. Universities left to their own accord isn't getting the job done. The University of Minnesota hired a couple of serial sexual deviants. These folks were responsible for hiring coaches! Is it out of the realm of probability that universities are hiring racists as AD's? And guess what? The racist AD isn't going to say I don't hire black coaches. Instead he will say I hired the best person for the job.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Yikes, you quickly went full tilt. I can't imagine living life feeling like everyone in power is a virulent racist.
Maybe you are right and everything is unfair.

How did you get full tilt and me filling like everyone in power is a virulent racist or everything is unfair?

 

[Section2]

How did you get full tilt and me filling like everyone in power is a virulent racist or everything is unfair?

You compared the situation to Louis Farrakhan making hiring decisions. He's a virulent racist. It was your analogy, maybe I misinterpreted.

 

[Section2]

Overtly? Signs saying blacks need not apply stop appearing years ago. What was overt 30 years ago no longer exists today, it's illegal. The lack of black coaches in college football is today's overt racism.

The fact your organization has to look at demographic info (insert shaking my head) in an effort to come up with board members is telling. I was on a golf trip 3 months ago with 30 professional black men. Hell, my contact list in my phone contains several hundred black professionals. Your organization can't find one or two? Don't you have any professional black friends? I'm sure thats how the bulk of your board came to be hired. That's how I came to serve on the 2 non profit boards I serve on....a friend asked if I would be interested.

I digress. This ***t ain't difficult if the goal is to promote change (remember I think black folks can fix this one) then mandate change. Universities left to their own accord isn't getting the job done. The University of Minnesota hired a couple of serial sexual deviants. These folks were responsible for hiring coaches! Is it out of the realm of probability that universities are hiring racists as AD's? And guess what? The racist AD isn't going to say I don't hire black coaches. Instead he will say I hired the best person for the job.

Almost as if private discrimination laws don't work. Question for you: would you rather have this "hidden" racism, or would you rather ADs just came out and said I refuse to hire black coaches if that's how they felt?

Would add, since many black people feel that those in power are racist, do you think that influences how they act toward those people and who they choose to network with?

 

[tato2001]

Overtly? Signs saying blacks need not apply stop appearing years ago. What was overt 30 years ago no longer exists today, it's illegal. The lack of black coaches in college football is today's overt racism.

The fact your organization has to look at demographic info (insert shaking my head) in an effort to come up with board members is telling. I was on a golf trip 3 months ago with 30 professional black men. Hell, my contact list in my phone contains several hundred black professionals. Your organization can't find one or two? Don't you have any professional black friends? I'm sure thats how the bulk of your board came to be hired. That's how I came to serve on the 2 non profit boards I serve on....a friend asked if I would be interested.

I digress. This ***t ain't difficult if the goal is to promote change (remember I think black folks can fix this one) then mandate change. Universities left to their own accord isn't getting the job done. The University of Minnesota hired a couple of serial sexual deviants. These folks were responsible for hiring coaches! Is it out of the realm of probability that universities are hiring racists as AD's? And guess what? The racist AD isn't going to say I don't hire black coaches. Instead he will say I hired the best person for the job.

Your anecdotes are great, but sorry, they just don't reflect reality.

We try to recruit black educators to our organization. Let's look at the demographic numbers you so casually dismiss.

There are approximately 54,000 teachers in the state of Minnesota. One percent are black (http://mnstateofed2014.minncan.org/).

That means our pool of potential candidates is about 540 people. Period. Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that every single one of those teachers is willing to serve on our board. Which of course is an absolutely absurd assumption given that many just aren't interested or likely are happy with their non-profit involvement already.

Out of a state of over 5.4 million people you think it's an easy task to recruit them? They make up about .01% of the population. Yep, that's 1/100th of 1 percent. Just to put that in perspective, it's only slightly higher than the odds actuaries use for hitting a hole in one in golf (1/12,500 = .008% per http://www.holeinoneinsurance.com/hole-in-one-odds.html)

Denial of facts doesn't do anything to reduce racial inequality in our country.

 

[Sportsfan24]

You compared the situation to Louis Farrakhan making hiring decisions. He's a virulent racist. It was your analogy, maybe I misinterpreted.

My bad.

That was a bad attempt to show an example of what it feels like to apply for a job with a person you know would not hire you. You are correct Louis is an incredible racist and I will add murder.

My point is if Louis was in charge of hiring we would never be questioning the qualifications of the white folks he would not hire. The blame would correctly rest with him.

The lack of black coaches in college football is simple. They are not being given the same opportunities as their white counterparts. No justification is needed.

 

[Section2]

My bad.

That was a bad attempt to show an example of what it feels like to apply for a job with a person you know would not hire you. You are correct Louis is an incredible racist and I will add murder.

My point is if Louis was in charge of hiring we would never be questioning the qualifications of the white folks he would not hire. The blame would correctly rest with him.

The lack of black coaches in college football is simple. They are not being given the same opportunities as their white counterparts. No justification is needed.

Since we are discussing a competitive industry, lets assume that black and white coaches are equally qualified. Let's also assume 75% of ads are racist, knowingly or not. The 25% would have a better pool of coaches to choose from. Would having better coaches not lead to more success? Or do you think coaching doesn't matter? Black coaches might not receive the same number of opportunities, but they are still receiving opportunities. Shouldn't results bear that out and competition win?

you really seem to be arguing that coaching positions are just gifts that are being unfairly handed out. I can't think of a more competitive field. These arguments are similar to those arguments that women are paid less or treated unfairly in hiring.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Almost as if private discrimination laws don't work. Question for you: would you rather have this "hidden" racism, or would you rather ADs just came out and said I refuse to hire black coaches if that's how they felt?

Would add, since many black people feel that those in power are racist, do you think that influences how they act toward those people and who they choose to network with?

In all honesty. The lack of black coaches in college football rest squarely on the shoulders of black people. If we don't like it we can change it. We don't need help from anyone but us.

Attend colleges that will hire you after college. Colleges that hire black people will get the best black athletes and will be rewarded on the field with victories and off the field with revenue. AD's and boosters will soon get the message.

There is nothing new about this. Texas Tech did this in basketball back in the 60's. Ricky Branch did it in baseball.

Networking? Stop looking for a reason to justify what's going on. In ain't that deep, the folks doing the hiring aren't hiring the brothers that played for them.

 

[Sportsfan24]

I like what I said much that I said it twice!

 

[Sportsfan24]

Your anecdotes are great, but sorry, they just don't reflect reality.

We try to recruit black educators to our organization. Let's look at the demographic numbers you so casually dismiss.

There are approximately 54,000 teachers in the state of Minnesota. One percent are black (http://mnstateofed2014.minncan.org/).

That means our pool of potential candidates is about 540 people. Period. Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that every single one of those teachers is willing to serve on our board. Which of course is an absolutely absurd assumption given that many just aren't interested or likely are happy with their non-profit involvement already.

Out of a state of over 5.4 million people you think it's an easy task to recruit them? They make up about .01% of the population. Yep, that's 1/100th of 1 percent. Just to put that in perspective, it's only slightly higher than the odds actuaries use for hitting a hole in one in golf (1/12,500 = .008% per http://www.holeinoneinsurance.com/hole-in-one-odds.html)

Denial of facts doesn't do anything to reduce racial inequality in our country.

Blah, blah, blah.

After a 20 second look at the contact list in my phone I came up with:

Executive Director of Highschool (Robinsdale)
School District Business Manager (Robinsdale)
Osseo Highschool Principle
Osseo District Adminstrator whose responsibilities include hirin AD's
Edison and North AD's
Mpls School District Ad
8 teachers

All black and I don't even work in Education. They are called friends. Get some it may make your job easier. Demographics......you funny.

I should also add; of the two non profit boards I serve on. I was asked by...you guessed it friends.

 

[tato2001]

Blah, blah, blah.

After a 20 second look at the contact list in my phone I came up with:

Executive Director of Highschool (Robinsdale)
School District Business Manager (Robinsdale)
Osseo Highschool Principle
Osseo District Adminstrator whose responsibilities include hirin AD's
Edison and North AD's
Mpls School District Ad
8 teachers

All black and I don't even work in Education. They are called friends. Get some it may make your job easier. Demographics......you funny.

I should also add; of the two non profit boards I serve on. I was asked by...you guessed it friends.

Those sound like good candidates. Especially the teachers. Could you put me in touch with any of them? If you PM me, I'll give you the details on the organization.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Since we are discussing a competitive industry, lets assume that black and white coaches are equally qualified. Let's also assume 75% of ads are racist, knowingly or not. The 25% would have a better pool of coaches to choose from. Would having better coaches not lead to more success? Or do you think coaching doesn't matter? Black coaches might not receive the same number of opportunities, but they are still receiving opportunities. Shouldn't results bear that out and competition win?

you really seem to be arguing that coaching positions are just gifts that are being unfairly handed out. I can't think of a more competitive field. These arguments are similar to those arguments that women are paid less or treated unfairly in hiring.

Coaches get fired all the time for lack of success yet they keep hiring the same type (white) coaches. The university hasn't won a Big Ten championship in over half a freaking century yet....... Does that answer your question? Universities that have had little no success keep ignoring a hiring pool....why?

 

[Sportsfan24]

Those sound like good candidates. Especially the teachers. Could you put me in touch with any of them? If you PM me, I'll give you the details on the organization.

I just PM'd you.......that's what friends are for��

 

[minibeaver]

In all honesty. The lack of black coaches in college football rest squarely on the shoulders of black people. If we don't like it we can change it. We don't need help from anyone but us.

Attend colleges that will hire you after college. Colleges that hire black people will get the best black athletes and will be rewarded on the field with victories and off the field with revenue. AD's and boosters will soon get the message.

There is nothing new about this. Texas Tech did this in basketball back in the 60's. Ricky Branch did it in baseball.

Networking? Stop looking for a reason to justify what's going on. In ain't that deep, the folks doing the hiring aren't hiring the brothers that played for them.

This is kind of an aggressive "us against them" mentality isn't it? Doesn't that kind of message breed divisiveness?

In regards to Tony Dungy- didn't he already have an NFL HC job before the Rooney Rule? His teams were known for great defense, but lack luster offenses. He brought the Bucs back to respectability, but kind of hit a plateau of making the playoffs, but not being able to get further than first round or so. Is it a coincidence that he was picked up by a team that already had a good offense, but needed shoring up on D? Was he fired because he was black, and then hired by the Colts because he was black(Rooney Rule)? Or was he fired from the Bucs because his offenses were bad and had reached a plateau, and hired by the Colts because they already had an offense and needed some Defense?