Bo Ryan and the Minnesota players

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bga1

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As much as I can't stand the Badgers or the Grinch in particular, the guy is amazing. Looking at his record - he has three Big Ten Championships- regular season and two Big ten Tourney wins, plus he has been competing in the upper half of the Big Ten nearly every single year. He has done this with two NBA level players- Harris and Tucker. Tucker playing as a 6-6 center.

I see people say- if we only had Leuer or Taylor or Bergren or this guy or that from Minnesota.... I'm sure these guys would be fine additions to the Gophers, but I gotta give the lions share of the credit to Bo. The guy more consistently takes guys with some good basketball skills and makes them develop into something a lot better in his framework. They almost never have athleticism at the level of the top 5-6 teams.

So while we think this player or that from the Badgers would make the difference and that Tubby will now stop the flow of Minnesota players to Wisconsin, don't bet on it. I think Ryan will still get some guys from Minny that we pass on and make them Badger boreball greats. He's just totally a different style coach than Tubby or perhaps anybody in the Big Ten and he will make players that might not have been much in Tubby's system look great in his. Hoff has been very good for us- he'd have been lethal with Ryan's system. Watching them - they are so sure of what they are doing on each possession that it really helps this fairly average group of athletes - who are good to great shooters- excel as a team. I think it's more the system than the players.

Look at the kids that Bo has developed. Kam Taylor, Leuer, Jordan Taylor Butch, Wilkinson, Nankivil and a slew of other nameless guys that were not too good as freshmen all have eventually become very,very good players in his system. I can't say- as good as Tubby is- that he transforms players within his system to the degree that Bo has. Tubby recruits better athletes.

Again- I say all this while also saying that I can't stand Wisky or Bo. It's just the way it is.
 

Good post, except a few things.

Leuer was pretty good player as a frosh. Bo doesn't play freshman much. Leuer got good minutes on a veteran team. I also think athletically, he's a very good player. And he would have succeeded in any system.

Jordan Taylor was a very good player as a freshman. He got a lot of minutes. He didn't score as much, and struggled shooting. But all the other aspects of his game were there from day one - being a true point guard.

If you trade Taylor for Nolen, you guys are the Big Ten favorites. If you trade Gasser for Hoffarber, Wisconsin is the Big Ten favorites. I think both teams are a player away from greatness. But I think Wisconsin is further along because of Taylor and Leuer being the guys that they are.

Bo's best developed player might be Kirk Penney. He was a one trick pony under Bennett/Soderberg. He became a borderline NBA player and good international player under Bo. I think Hoff would have had a career much like Penney's ended up had he come to UW. A good inside/outside 2/3 man who can shoot the lights out.
 

Well said BGA

bga1 said:
As much as I can't stand the Badgers or the Grinch in particular, the guy is amazing. Looking at his record - he has three Big Ten Championships- regular season and two Big ten Tourney wins, plus he has been competing in the upper half of the Big Ten nearly every single year. He has done this with two NBA level players- Harris and Tucker. Tucker playing as a 6-6 center.

I see people say- if we only had Leuer or Taylor or Bergren or this guy or that from Minnesota.... I'm sure these guys would be fine additions to the Gophers, but I gotta give the lions share of the credit to Bo. The guy more consistently takes guys with some good basketball skills and makes them develop into something a lot better in his framework. They almost never have athleticism at the level of the top 5-6 teams.

So while we think this player or that from the Badgers would make the difference and that Tubby will now stop the flow of Minnesota players to Wisconsin, don't bet on it. I think Ryan will still get some guys from Minny that we pass on and make them Badger boreball greats. He's just totally a different style coach than Tubby or perhaps anybody in the Big Ten and he will make players that might not have been much in Tubby's system look great in his. Hoff has been very good for us- he'd have been lethal with Ryan's system. Watching them - they are so sure of what they are doing on each possession that it really helps this fairly average group of athletes - who are good to great shooters- excel as a team. I think it's more the system than the players.

Look at the kids that Bo has developed. Kam Taylor, Leuer, Jordan Taylor Butch, Wilkinson, Nankivil and a slew of other nameless guys that were not too good as freshmen all have eventually become very,very good players in his system. I can't say- as good as Tubby is- that he transforms players within his system to the degree that Bo has. Tubby recruits better athletes.

Again- I say all this while also saying that I can't stand Wisky or Bo. It's just the way it is.
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As the game wore on last night, your point became so clear. Ryan develops players, and they excel in his system.

We at MN talk of the great athleticism of our team, yet that group of kids in Madison won the game. They are disciplined as well.

The pieces Tubby has assembled look great on paper, and in person. But there just seems to be something missing that will make this team great.

Tubby's offense seems to be problematic for the kids to understand or run; it is not smooth many times and has not been smooth for the past few seasons.

Early in the season however.
 

Badger_inohiovalley said:
Good post, except a few things.

Leuer was pretty good player as a frosh. Bo doesn't play freshman much. Leuer got good minutes on a veteran team. I also think athletically, he's a very good player. And he would have succeeded in any system.

Jordan Taylor was a very good player as a freshman. He got a lot of minutes. He didn't score as much, and struggled shooting. But all the other aspects of his game were there from day one - being a true point guard.

If you trade Taylor for Nolen, you guys are the Big Ten favorites. If you trade Gasser for Hoffarber, Wisconsin is the Big Ten favorites. I think both teams are a player away from greatness. But I think Wisconsin is further along because of Taylor and Leuer being the guys that they are.

Bo's best developed player might be Kirk Penney. He was a one trick pony under Bennett/Soderberg. He became a borderline NBA player and good international player under Bo. I think Hoff would have had a career much like Penney's ended up had he come to UW. A good inside/outside 2/3 man who can shoot the lights out.
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You are obviously a more knowledgable Wisky person than I. However, just from a stats view Leuer averaged 2.9 his frosh year while Taylor redshirted and then averaged 1.6 ppg his first playing year. Those are almost Maverick numbers. The point is that these are the type of guys that the Grinch has consistently molded into really, really solid players who I am not sure would have been as good in our system. Maybe Taylor and Leuer would have but I am thinking that the certainty and consistency of the system and Ryans development skill are unique.
 



BarnBurner said:
As the game wore on last night, your point became so clear. Ryan develops players, and they excel in his system.

We at MN talk of the great athleticism of our team, yet that group of kids in Madison won the game. They are disciplined as well.

The pieces Tubby has assembled look great on paper, and in person. But there just seems to be something missing that will make this team great.

Tubby's offense seems to be problematic for the kids to understand or run; it is not smooth many times and has not been smooth for the past few seasons.

Early in the season however.
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Agreed Barn- I'm not a big fan of Tubby's offense at all. Perhaps with the right guys it works beautifully but I haven't seen it. It's tought to argue with Tubby's record though and we are lucky as can be to have him. I think there's a chance he'll get us to a level higher than Ryan is achieving now - especially in terms of post season where Ryan has been pedestrian. But Tubby will do it with better and better athletes. Right now a lot of our players lack certain basketball skills while still being very good players to have. Devoe is a poor defender, Nolen a poor shooter, Mbakwe limited offensively, ditto Iverson.
 

From the Barn said:
I don't think Taylor red-shirted, but I could be wrong.
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You are right FTB- somehow I was thinking (wrongly) that Taylor came out of HS in the same year as Leuer. I stand corrected. Thanks.
 

Which Taylor do you mean? Kam or Jordan? Neither redshirted. The perspective I'm coming from on him is that he played 13 minutes a game as true freshman PG. That never happens for Bo. For instance, Kam Taylor played 41 minutes all season as true frosh PG. Trevon Hughes played very little as a true frosh...maybe 80 minutes.

13 minutes per game means that by the Big Ten season, it probably was closer to 20. Over his final 10 games, he had a 16 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. Like I said, his PG skills were there from day one. He didn't shoot much, and distributed. He had two junior guards in Hughes and Bohannon who took the shots.

Yes, he has developed his offensive game quite a bit. But he was a good player for UW as a frosh.

For Leuer, that was a Big Ten Championship team with lots of big guys getting lots of minutes - Brian Butch, Marcus Landry, Greg Steimsma, etc. For Leuer to see the court much was a good accomplishment. He had a 12 and 6 night at Duke. And at Michigan, he scored 25. But minutes were thin with a very upperclass dominated Big Ten Championship team.

So sure....looking at the stat sheet, as an outside fan, you can say that these guys came out of nowhere. To UW fans, we saw them as Freshmen and knew they were going to be players.
 

I hate Bo Ryan. In part because he's a total jerkoff, and in part because he's so damn good. Who else could win like that with the whitest roster outside of the Klan? I can't wait for him to retire. With our luck, their next coach will be some anonymous D3 guy who turns out to be even better.
 



You list a bunch of Wisconsin players as "nameless" that were not actually nameless at all. Brian Butch was a McDonald's All-American. Leuer and Nankivil were both consensus top-100 high school recruits. Jordan Taylor and Kammron Taylor were both borderline top-100 national recruits. Wilkinson I'm not sure about, but the rest you're just not accurately characterizing.

The point is that this narrative about how Bo Ryan takes mush and turns it into diamonds is way overblown. He actually starts with a solid foundation of talent.
 

playhosea! said:
You list a bunch of Wisconsin players as "nameless" that were not actually nameless at all. Brian Butch was a McDonald's All-American. Leuer and Nankivil were both consensus top-100 high school recruits. Jordan Taylor and Kammron Taylor were both borderline top-100 national recruits. Wilkinson I'm not sure about, but the rest you're just not accurately characterizing.

The point is that this narrative about how Bo Ryan takes mush and turns it into diamonds is way overblown. He actually starts with a solid foundation of talent.
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I agree. The "lack of talent" at Wisconsin take is way overstated.

But I think the discussion is about the development of talent from Freshman year. I think he's right about guys developing from RS seasons (Butch and Wilk) and true frosh seasons with little contributioin (Kam Taylor, Nankivil). All of these players were rather highly recruited.

Names to wait on for a couple seasons from now are Josh Gasser (starting now, but not a big scorer), Ben Brust and Duje Dukan. All three are promising young players who will most likely develop well under Bo.
 

playhosea! said:
You list a bunch of Wisconsin players as "nameless" that were not actually nameless at all. Brian Butch was a McDonald's All-American. Leuer and Nankivil were both consensus top-100 high school recruits. Jordan Taylor and Kammron Taylor were both borderline top-100 national recruits. Wilkinson I'm not sure about, but the rest you're just not accurately characterizing.

The point is that this narrative about how Bo Ryan takes mush and turns it into diamonds is way overblown. He actually starts with a solid foundation of talent.
Click to expand...

The reason most people view the guys he recruits as "mush" is because basketball fans are blown away by athleticism. For the most part, even the guys that are top 100 talents that UW recruits aren't great athletes, they are very skilled basketball players who are just athletic enough.
 

playhosea! said:
You list a bunch of Wisconsin players as "nameless" that were not actually nameless at all. Brian Butch was a McDonald's All-American. Leuer and Nankivil were both consensus top-100 high school recruits. Jordan Taylor and Kammron Taylor were both borderline top-100 national recruits. Wilkinson I'm not sure about, but the rest you're just not accurately characterizing.

The point is that this narrative about how Bo Ryan takes mush and turns it into diamonds is way overblown. He actually starts with a solid foundation of talent.
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Butch was large- and that's it when he arrived. He must have used 7'0 to dominate 6'5 centers in HS because he was terrible when he first started at Wisky and terrific when he left. Leuer was off the recruiting radar until his senior year and a big growth chart. Far from a sure thing. They were all fine players in HS but all got a lot better in the Grinch system.
 




I was going to hypothesize about what a different team the Gophers would be if Jordan Taylor were running the point. Don't get me wrong, the Gophers are a better team when Nolan is on the court, but nonetheless, he is limited as a point guard. But then I got to thinking, would Taylor have developed under the Gopher system as he has in Madison? Jordan Taylor wasn't a slouch coming out of high school, but neither was he an all B10 lock, either. When one looks at our similarly situated players, there seems to be much more of a plateau in development.
 

Swede said:
I was going to hypothesize about what a different team the Gophers would be if Jordan Taylor were running the point. Don't get me wrong, the Gophers are a better team when Nolan is on the court, but nonetheless, he is limited as a point guard. But then I got to thinking, would Taylor have developed under the Gopher system as he has in Madison? Jordan Taylor wasn't a slouch coming out of high school, but neither was he an all B10 lock, either. When one looks at our similarly situated players, there seems to be much more of a plateau in development.
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Out of High School:

Al Nolen: 3-Star. NR at PG.
Jordan Taylor: 3-Star. 30th Best PG.

Al was rated worse than Taylor ... so if anyone "developed" I'd say it was Al just as much as Taylor, Gopher fans know we need a 100% Al Nolen to win. I'd say going from Unranked at PG to the key to a teams success is pretty big development. Let's not act like Tubby doesn't develop players too ...

Out of High School:

Jon Leuer: 4-Star. 26th Best PF
Blake Hoffarber: 3-Star. 35th Best SG.

Tubby has done just fine ...
 

scher215 said:
Out of High School:

Al Nolen: 3-Star. NR at PG.
Jordan Taylor: 3-Star. 30th Best PG.

Al was rated worse than Taylor ... so if anyone "developed" I'd say it was Al just as much as Taylor, Gopher fans know we need a 100% Al Nolen to win. I'd say going from Unranked at PG to the key to a teams success is pretty big development. Let's not act like Tubby doesn't develop players too ...

Out of High School:

Jon Leuer: 4-Star. 26th Best PF
Blake Hoffarber: 3-Star. 35th Best SG.

Tubby has done just fine ...
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Al has not developed much. He came here and was good defensively and a good ball handler and he still is both. His three year summary:

Frosh 4.3ppg assist/TO ratio2/1 steals 64
Soph 6.5 assists/To ratio 2.5/1 steals 64
Jr 2/3 year 6.7ppg assists /TO ratio 3/1 steals 43

The thing he needed work on was to finish at the hoop and develop and outside shot and he's done neither. Great player to have from a defensive standpoint and to beat defensive pressure- he just hasn't gotten much better. So Nolen got an "NR" in high school. Big deal- are you telling me that someone can figure out between who the 150the player in the nation is and who the 250 best player is? Not consistently. You can tell the top 25- from the guys who rank 125th but as you go down the ranks the lines blur.
 

Bo has yet to beat Tubby for a Minnesota kid he wants. Leuer Taylor and Berggren were during Monson.

As for Bo's player development there are busts as well

Bo failed to develop Ian Markolf who had a offers from Kentucky and others.
Bo failed to develop J.P. Gavinski a top 150 big man still sitting on the bench.
Bo needed a full 5 years to develop Brian Butch the high school all america.
Bo recruited the criminal duo of Diamond Taylor and Jeremy Glover.
 


There always has been talent there. For example, Bo's last eight classes:

2010 - four 3-star recruit
2009 - two 3-star recruits
2008 - 4-star Jared Bergren (#74 nationally), plus three 3-star recruits
2007 - 4-star Jon Lueur (#82), 4-star Keaton Nankivil (#92), plus two 3-star recruits
2006 - 4-star Trevon Hughes (#58), 4-star Jason Bohannon (#88), plus one 3-star (#116)
2005 - 5-star Joe Krabbenhoft (#23), plus one 3-star
2004 - 4-star Greg Stiemsma (#45), plus two 3-star recruits (including #124)
2003 - 5-star Brian Butch (#9), plus two 3-star recruits

So, basically, (according to Rivals) he's hauled in a pair of 5-star guys, six 4-star guys, and 17 three-star players; almost all of which overlapped at one time or another. That's a pretty good assembly of talent. It isn't like he's taking a bunch of 2-stars and developing them. That said, he is a damned, damned fine coach.
 

tjgopher said:
There always has been talent there. For example, Bo's last eight classes:

2010 - four 3-star recruit
2009 - two 3-star recruits
2008 - 4-star Jared Bergren (#74 nationally), plus three 3-star recruits
2007 - 4-star Jon Lueur (#82), 4-star Keaton Nankivil (#92), plus two 3-star recruits
2006 - 4-star Trevon Hughes (#58), 4-star Jason Bohannon (#88), plus one 3-star (#116)
2005 - 5-star Joe Krabbenhoft (#23), plus one 3-star
2004 - 4-star Greg Stiemsma (#45), plus two 3-star recruits (including #124)
2003 - 5-star Brian Butch (#9), plus two 3-star recruits

So, basically, (according to Rivals) he's hauled in a pair of 5-star guys, six 4-star guys, and 17 three-star players; almost all of which overlapped at one time or another. That's a pretty good assembly of talent. It isn't like he's taking a bunch of 2-stars and developing them. That said, he is a damned, damned fine coach.
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Looks very similar (the last 4 years) to MN recruiting rankings. And, at this point, they are pretty evenly matched teams. So, can we please accept that BOTH Bo and Tubby are good coaches??? (I won't debate that Bo is the uglier of the two - and I say that pretending to ignore what our new football coach looks like) and Tubby has the same (essentially) ranked recruites that he has playing at a level very close to, maybe slightly better, slightly worse, than the Bo Ryan coached Wisconsin teams (of the last 4 years).
 

royboy said:
Bo has yet to beat Tubby for a Minnesota kid he wants. Leuer Taylor and Berggren were during Monson.

As for Bo's player development there are busts as well

Bo failed to develop Ian Markolf who had a offers from Kentucky and others.
Bo failed to develop J.P. Gavinski a top 150 big man still sitting on the bench.
Bo needed a full 5 years to develop Brian Butch the high school all america.
Bo recruited the criminal duo of Diamond Taylor and Jeremy Glover.
Click to expand...

Really?

- Markolf and Gavinski were projects that didn't pan out. Luckily for UW, Markolf decided to leave the team and not take up a schollie for 5 years like J.P.
- Butch was a string bean when he came in, so he had a ton of trouble working in the paint until he put on weight. He was a dominant rebounder from day one and had a huge jump in offensive efficiency from his freshman year to his sophomore year.
- And he promptly kicked them off the team. Something Tubby takes his good, sweet time in doing. I hardly think that you should be critical of the Taylor/Glover incident given the events involving White/Bostick and Mbakwe.
 

What's with the Bo Ryan hero worshipping on GH? We smashed the Badgers 3 games in a row, which I don't think any other B10 team has done. And they barely won this one.

Bo Ryan is a good coach, but he plays a boring 1950's style of basketball that no one else plays and that's why he wins a lot. He's a plays a style that teams don't face often and that throws them off. His teams don't have many turnovers cause they basically pass the ball around for 30 seconds and they lull the defense info sheer boredom then they launch a shot at the last second. This is definitely not contemporary basketball.

I would never trade for Tubby for Bo in a million years.
 

tjgopher said:
There always has been talent there. For example, Bo's last eight classes:

2010 - four 3-star recruit
2009 - two 3-star recruits
2008 - 4-star Jared Bergren (#74 nationally), plus three 3-star recruits
2007 - 4-star Jon Lueur (#82), 4-star Keaton Nankivil (#92), plus two 3-star recruits
2006 - 4-star Trevon Hughes (#58), 4-star Jason Bohannon (#88), plus one 3-star (#116)
2005 - 5-star Joe Krabbenhoft (#23), plus one 3-star
2004 - 4-star Greg Stiemsma (#45), plus two 3-star recruits (including #124)
2003 - 5-star Brian Butch (#9), plus two 3-star recruits

So, basically, (according to Rivals) he's hauled in a pair of 5-star guys, six 4-star guys, and 17 three-star players; almost all of which overlapped at one time or another. That's a pretty good assembly of talent. It isn't like he's taking a bunch of 2-stars and developing them. That said, he is a damned, damned fine coach.
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I've never seen Joe Krabbenhoft referred to as a 5-star player, but your point is well taken. The cupboard certainly has not been bare. Nonetheless, the only McDonald all-American he has had has been Butch and he has never had the top rated class in the conference by the "experts". (Contrast that with what Roy Williams did with seven McDonald All-Americans. The joke in Madison was that Bo could have taken his second team and at least gotten them into the tournament.)
Looking at the level of success he has had, I think you can say no one has been able to do more with less, IMO.
 

Buckybacker said:
Really?

- Markolf and Gavinski were projects that didn't pan out. Luckily for UW, Markolf decided to leave the team and not take up a schollie for 5 years like J.P.
- Butch was a string bean when he came in, so he had a ton of trouble working in the paint until he put on weight. He was a dominant rebounder from day one and had a huge jump in offensive efficiency from his freshman year to his sophomore year.
- And he promptly kicked them off the team. Something Tubby takes his good, sweet time in doing. I hardly think that you should be critical of the Taylor/Glover incident given the events involving White/Bostick and Mbakwe.
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I am not familiar with the Wisconsin inicident ... but are you really calling out Tubby Smith as being "unethical"? Congrats, you might be the ONLY person in the world with that opinion.

Bostick: Smoking weed => suspended 7 Games.
Similar case - korie lucious: DWI => suspended 2 Games

White: Suspended indefinitley for stealing $200 in clothes and assaulting a security guard (and quitting the team), eventually not charged with laptop theft (only trespassing).
Similar case- Renaldo Sydney ... no explanation needed, but he is still starting on the team.

Mbakwe: Never found guilty of assault. Suspended an entire season over an accusation.
Similar case - LaceDarius Dunn: Assault => Suspended for exhibition games and a few more? Back playing now.

Joseph: Suspended for (I belive 5 games) including the BIG game against UNC for "conduct detrimental to the team" (basically)
Similar case - Not sure, as it was never made public what his issue was.

Which punishment was incorrect now ... can you maybe point out what SHOULD have happened with each incident? Judge BuckyBacker.
 

Scher, I think the Badger fan took acception to the "recruits criminals" line. Neither were criminals when recruited, and had clean records. When they crossed the line, they were gone. They stole like White, but were gone. White was allowed to hang around and see if he could clean himself up. And White had a rap before arriving.

I'm not claiming Tubby is out of line. Just that the Gopher fan for throwing stones at Ryan's treatment of problem cases, which on the surface are not only similar to your boys, but were dealt with promptly.
 

Badger_inohiovalley said:
Scher, I think the Badger fan took acception to the "recruits criminals" line. Neither were criminals when recruited, and had clean records. When they crossed the line, they were gone. They stole like White, but were gone. White was allowed to hang around and see if he could clean himself up. And White had a rap before arriving.

I'm not claiming Tubby is out of line. Just that the Gopher fan for throwing stones at Ryan's treatment of problem cases, which on the surface are not only similar to your boys, but were dealt with promptly.
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Makes sense, I was not clear on what happened with the Wisconsin issue (or that there ever was an issue). Not sure why the case would be made for "recruiting criminals" (at Bo) especially when, as you said, we had the same types of issues last season. It has nothing to do with the coach IMO, what the coach can control is the punishment. I have no problem with Bo kicking off his players, but I also have no problem with Tubby waiting to see the outcome of the other cases. 7 games for weed is fine with me as is a player pleading his innocence sitting out the year until that is the case to the court system as well. Royce White was given a nice chance after his theft, but was not okay with his treatment and left. He disagreed with it. I think to call out Tubby for his handeling of these issues is not necessary, as MANY (including non Gopher fans) found them to be TOO strict actually and that would be the conclusion if you look at the punishments handed out by other coaches.
 

Buckybacker said:
Really?

- Markolf and Gavinski were projects that didn't pan out. Luckily for UW, Markolf decided to leave the team and not take up a schollie for 5 years like J.P.
- Butch was a string bean when he came in, so he had a ton of trouble working in the paint until he put on weight. He was a dominant rebounder from day one and had a huge jump in offensive efficiency from his freshman year to his sophomore year.
- And he promptly kicked them off the team. Something Tubby takes his good, sweet time in doing. I hardly think that you should be critical of the Taylor/Glover incident given the events involving White/Bostick and Mbakwe.
Click to expand...

Relax. Bo's had his fair share of busts and failures just like Tubby and every other coach.
 

scher215 said:
Looks very similar (the last 4 years) to MN recruiting rankings. And, at this point, they are pretty evenly matched teams. So, can we please accept that BOTH Bo and Tubby are good coaches??? (I won't debate that Bo is the uglier of the two - and I say that pretending to ignore what our new football coach looks like) and Tubby has the same (essentially) ranked recruites that he has playing at a level very close to, maybe slightly better, slightly worse, than the Bo Ryan coached Wisconsin teams (of the last 4 years).
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They are both great coaches. Tubby has recruited guys who have more athleticism and earned their stars that way. Ryan has recruited guys who in my view earned their stars more through skills than through athletic ability. Two different coaches, two different methods. In my view Tubby's depends more on recruiting than Bo's. I'm not so sure some of the Minny guys that every one is so high on now (but were lukewarm on three./four years ago) would have developed the same way in the Tubby system. Likewise Mbakwe or Williams may not fit in the Ryan system as well as Tubby's.
 

Badger_inohiovalley said:
Scher, I think the Badger fan took acception to the "recruits criminals" line. Neither were criminals when recruited, and had clean records. When they crossed the line, they were gone. They stole like White, but were gone. White was allowed to hang around and see if he could clean himself up. And White had a rap before arriving.

I'm not claiming Tubby is out of line. Just that the Gopher fan for throwing stones at Ryan's treatment of problem cases, which on the surface are not only similar to your boys, but were dealt with promptly.
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For the record Taylor and Glover went on a shopping spree in the dorms. They stole things from multiple students. Bo has problem players just like Tubby.

If you want to dig deeper check out Boo Wade under Bo Ryan. Ryan made Wade only sit out two games after being arrested for trying to strangle his girlfriend. Wade eventually was found guilty of bail jumping and few other charges.

Bo's a fine coach but let's not pretend he only recruits honor roll students.
 

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