Big Ten office admits measurement needed before Ohio State awarded key first down

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GFBfan said:
I knew that, but don't understand how a ref could say that, nor do I buy it. If a coach calls a TO and says "hey look at that spot" then don't they have to look at it?
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I could be wrong, but - as I understand it, all replays in College FB are called for from the booth. A replay official looks at the play, and if he feels it needs to be a formal review, there is a buzzer system to alert the referees on the field. As Fleck said, sometimes when a coach suggests that the refs review a play, the refs will say "wait for the buzzer," meaning that they expect the booth to call for a replay. In this case, they supposedly told Fleck that there would be no replay, and he would be wasting a time out. So, as far as I know, a coach can suggest a replay, but there is no challenge system. It's all up to the guy upstairs.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I could be wrong, but - as I understand it, all replays in College FB are called for from the booth. A replay official looks at the play, and if he feels it needs to be a formal review, there is a buzzer system to alert the referees on the field. As Fleck said, sometimes when a coach suggests that the refs review a play, the refs will say "wait for the buzzer," meaning that they expect the booth to call for a replay. In this case, they supposedly told Fleck that there would be no replay, and he would be wasting a time out. So, as far as I know, a coach can suggest a replay, but there is no challenge system. It's all up to the guy upstairs.
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College coaches are allowed one challenge, but only if they have a timeout available. Said that without a trace of irony..

Link form 8/30/18

3. College head coaches can make challenges, like in the NFL.

Each team gets one per game, with a second if the first challenge is successful. The coach has to call a timeout to request the challenge. If his team is already out of timeouts, he can’t challenge, but if a challenge is successful, he gets the timeout back. There are no red challenge flags, like they have in the pros.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2018/8/30/17489766/ncaa-instant-replay-challenge-rule
 

Am I wrong to think that the trend in college FB is to rush the spot and wave the chain gang ahead when it looks remotely like they made the line to gain? There have been many games where I thought they should have measured but they already have the chains moving up.
 

I'm thinking that the replay official already looked at a few replays and made the conclusion that they wouldn't be able to change anything. So therefore Fleck challenging it would have been a waste of a timeout. If I remember correctly, there was a long time before the next snap occurred due to a flag that was eventually picked up. In college, they look at replays almost immediately, then stop play if they need longer to review.
 

There is definitely bias towards tOSU involved in play calling. I think PJ Fleck knew to cut his loses and contained his anger/frustration. He doesn't want to be targeted by Big Ten refs by being level headed and gentlemanly. He'll get dividends someday somewhere. He at least got the Big Ten office to admit it was a bungled call.
 


SON, maybe not the refs ... but we have actual evidence that a conference HQ interfered with a replay booth during a game! It happened recently (this season) in the PAC.

Am I making a claim that Indy called the review booth in Columbus and said “don’t you dare review that spot!!” ? It would be impossible to prove.
 

goldenboy said:
Am I wrong to think that the trend in college FB is to rush the spot and wave the chain gang ahead when it looks remotely like they made the line to gain? There have been many games where I thought they should have measured but they already have the chains moving up.
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I would agree with this. I don't understand how defensive coaches live with it all the time.
As to the spot in Gopher game, if the booth didn't feel it needed to be looked at then they are incompetent.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Seriously - at the moment of the play - do you really think the referee had this going through his mind:

"the conference wants Ohio State to win, so I'd better hose Minnesota on this spot."

Sorry, I just don't accept that. The ref screwed up. he made a bad spot, and then (probably) his ego took over and he didn't want to admit he made a mistake. or - he genuinely believed it was a good spot, and there was no mistake to admit. Most people are blind to their own faults.

But, I just can't accept that it was part of some conspiracy to make sure Ohio State won the game.

Players make mistakes. coaches make mistakes. referees make mistakes. It's not part of some conspiracy. Refs are not fixing games at the order of the conference.

.......hey, maybe Annexstad threw those interceptions on purpose, because he was betting on Ohio State - or maybe gamblers were holding his family hostage, and he had to throw the game to save their lives.....

Sorry. Not a conspiracy. just football. and life. sometimes, neither one is fair.
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Yes I do think it is on purpose. tOSU gets these kinds of calls too often against teams like Minnesota. There is a pattern. The FBI needs to investigate and somebody needs to go to jail!

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GFBfan said:
This was on their first scoring drive, so I believe at that point we had 2 TO's left...maybe not
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I checked the play-by-play on ESPN. Minnesota had already used two time outs at that point and only had one left. That was very frustrating.
 



HopHead said:
I checked the play-by-play on ESPN. Minnesota had already used two time outs at that point and only had one left. That was very frustrating.
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There have been a number of posts criticizing our early timeouts in several threads. While I was re-watching the game to grade Faalele's performance, I think I stumbled across the reason why one of them was used.

Hint: It wasn't wasted.

On our second possession, we lined up for a play where Faalele had no outside help. The defensive end was on his outside shoulder, and a LB was threatening the inside gap. The LB didn't come, and Big Dan locked up decisively with the end. Well done. A few plays later, 3rd and 2 from OSU's 32, the same situation was developing. Our running back was on the other side of the formation, meaning that if both LB and DE came, one of them was going to get a free shot at Annexstad. The coaches appeared to be trying to get an adjustment made. When that wasn't forthcoming, they called time. Next play went for 14 yards and a first down, and a short time later we had our first TD.

That timeout wasn't wasted, although it may have appeared to have been at first glance.

JTG
 

rockford said:
There have been a number of posts criticizing our early timeouts in several threads. While I was re-watching the game to grade Faalele's performance, I think I stumbled across the reason why one of them was used.

Hint: It wasn't wasted.

On our second possession, we lined up for a play where Faalele had no outside help. The defensive end was on his outside shoulder, and a LB was threatening the inside gap. The LB didn't come, and Big Dan locked up decisively with the end. Well done. A few plays later, 3rd and 2 from OSU's 32, the same situation was developing. Our running back was on the other side of the formation, meaning that if both LB and DE came, one of them was going to get a free shot at Annexstad. The coaches appeared to be trying to get an adjustment made. When that wasn't forthcoming, they called time. Next play went for 14 yards and a first down, and a short time later we had our first TD.

That timeout wasn't wasted, although it may have appeared to have been at first glance.

JTG
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The TO was wasted. They had about 30 seconds to get a play in. Couldn't figure out what to do and had to burn the TO.
I believe it was Green in at QB for that play. Based on the way OSU aligned they should have had plenty of options to run that would have gotten a first down. If they didn't, then they don't have very much creativity in the wildcat and need to get some.
 

Believe what you want, but I don't think the timeout was called because of indecision. My impression was that a play was called, the team was at the line and doing its pre-snap read, they saw a situation that did not bode well for them, they tried to make an adjustment, and then used a timeout to avoid a potential disaster on a crucial play.

I could be wrong, but that's the way I saw it.

JTG
 

I was at this OSU game

DarrenTheGreek said:
In 2001 we lost to the Buckeyes 28-31 and I remember Tellis Redmon dang near getting his helmet ripped off after a big gain got us to the redzone. There was no flag from the official. I forget if we got a FG but I do remember the drive did not end in a touchdown and it was a big moment to not come away with 6 points.
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Redmond's helmet was ripped by the defender because they grabbed his face mask the referees completely missed the call. This wasn't even the most egregious miss that game, like Thomasthetank indicated in his post Ohio State was driving with the football at or about the 40 to 45 yard line there side of the 50. A Gophers linebacker created a fumble by knocking the ball out from the Ohio State running back. It appeared that one of our defensive backs after the ball took a few weird bounces and was knocked around had recovered the fumble first with a clear recovery on the ground. Instead of blowing the whistle and signaling Minnesota ball after the fumble, the Big 10 officials allowed a Pig Pile to occur with just about the entire roster of each team going in to the pile. There was an Ohio State guy that dived in to the pile one of the wide receivers, and ripped the ball away from the Gopher defender at the bottom of the pile. It was so ridiculous I just sat there in shock as I had seats 10 rows up on the visitors sideline for that game instead of sitting in my normal season tickets, I let my buddy bring his dad and two boys. I thought it was Ukee Dozier or Austin Isom that recovered the fumble took my dad and brother to the game and we had seats on the vistors sideline on the 40 yard line that day. I still think Minnesota would have won that game if that fumble had been ruled our way. With the amount of time on the clock, Ohio State does not drive down and score the winning score without that fumble recovery going in favor of Ohio State. This was not a melt down game, Minnesota defense played really hard that day and the offense with Tellis Redmond put up some rushing yards that game, if I remember correctly even Marion Barber III flashed and had a couple big runs against the Ohio State defense that game.
 



Michigan fans still talk about the infamous JT Barrett 4th down scramble that was spotted as a first down. Even Michigan suffers at the hands of OSU.

Regarding the pig pile takeaway the same thing happened in a Yikes/pack game years ago. The MN player clearly recovered and the whistle never came. Some tens of seconds later the Pack player emerges with the ball. Wisconsin has been the beneficiary of biased officials for decades.
 

What’s the guy doing officiating if he can’t spot a ball on a runner going down 10 feet straight in front of him with no one between him and the runner? The Big Ten replay booth is an absolute joke, particularly in Ohio. An official has no business officiating if they can’t spot the ball correctly in that situation.

They should have measured? Bullsh^t.
They should have reviewed!


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short ornery norwegian said:
Seriously - at the moment of the play - do you really think the referee had this going through his mind:

"the conference wants Ohio State to win, so I'd better hose Minnesota on this spot."

Sorry, I just don't accept that. The ref screwed up. he made a bad spot, and then (probably) his ego took over and he didn't want to admit he made a mistake. or - he genuinely believed it was a good spot, and there was no mistake to admit. Most people are blind to their own faults.

But, I just can't accept that it was part of some conspiracy to make sure Ohio State won the game.

Players make mistakes. coaches make mistakes. referees make mistakes. It's not part of some conspiracy. Refs are not fixing games at the order of the conference.

.......hey, maybe Annexstad threw those interceptions on purpose, because he was betting on Ohio State - or maybe gamblers were holding his family hostage, and he had to throw the game to save their lives.....

Sorry. Not a conspiracy. just football. and life. sometimes, neither one is fair.
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Likely a simple spotting mistake with the on field official. No doubt.

But, given multiple angles clearly showed the ball carrier down prior to the line to gain, for the replay official to refuse to officially review a key 4th down spot can lead one to only three possible conclusions:

1) replay official is a moron with no knowledge of the rules (not the case, as this was a long-time Big Ten official who is now retired)
2) replay official was taking a smoke break and not even in the replay booth (not the case, as smoking not allowed inside of Ohio Stadium)
3) replay official wants to give preferential treatment to Ohio State (obviously the most likely scenario)
 
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Face The Facts said:
Part of the issue with calling time out to have the check is they could still review it and not change it which is what I would have expected.

Also odd was the fact the announcers didn't make a mention of it at all that the spot was questionable.
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Actually they did say it was a bad spot and discussed they thought it would be reviewed.


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GFBfan said:
I knew that, but don't understand how a ref could say that, nor do I buy it. If a coach calls a TO and says "hey look at that spot" then don't they have to look at it?
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Correct. Fleck still could have challenged the spot. He chose not to based on the officials comments that the booth was not going to review the play. The official should not be punished. The only punishment should be for the replay official. That is what they are there for, to correct calls on the field when competitive balance comes into question. 4th down plays are competitive balance plays. Officials get one shot at the spot or each play, replay was the problem.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Correct. Fleck still could have challenged the spot. He chose not to based on the officials comments that the booth was not going to review the play. The official should not be punished. The only punishment should be for the replay official. That is what they are there for, to correct calls on the field when competitive balance comes into question. 4th down plays are competitive balance plays. Officials get one shot at the spot or each play, replay was the problem.
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The on field official who placed the ball could NOT have had a clearer view... the on field spot was horrid, and even more so given that it was on a 4th down play.
 

Vandy said:
The on field official who placed the ball could NOT have had a clearer view... the on field spot was horrid, and even more so given that it was on a 4th down play.
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I just looked at a replay and you can see the 1st down marker at the bottom of the screen. Although not official (Official chains on other side of field), the runner gained that mark by a yard. The red line on the screen was an additional yard beyond that spot. So something was off. Watching the game, I felt that even review and a re-spot would have resulted in a 1st down. The official is trained to move to the 1st down at the snap for best view. Once play is done he moves to his right meaning the ball was beyond the 1st down.

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I’m telling you guys ... it just came out in the PAC-12 a couple weeks ago that the conference HQ interfered with the replay booth and wouldn’t let them do their job. Just saying ...
 

Double
 

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Ok, some definitive screen shots.

I took some screen shots of the first down marker and then the moment the back hit the ground. It was very, very close. The marker is at the 42.1 yard line. He hits the ground and the nose of the ball is at the 42.1. The red line seems to be slightly misleading based on the photo. I’m not sure they would have overturned it on review. However, it could have been called short and that would also be defensible. Someone help me tag these photos to increase the size.

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The officials at the very least should've stopped to measure. A Fleck challenge would've been a high-risk, low reward gamble. It's never easy to overturn the spot of the ball and it has to be clear and indisputable visual evidence. That, and it was the first quarter.

Despite OSU scoring on the drive, the game didn't come down to this sequence.

It was a 6-point game in the fourth quarter with a Tyler Johnson 2nd quarter fumble as we were driving down the field at will (a score there makes it 21-10), 2 missed FGs, a Bateman ankle tackle that otherwise could've gone for a TD and 1 or 2 Ibrahim ankle tackles on runs that could've gone for a TD. There were multiple chances to win the game other than OSU going for it on a 4th down.

Onto Nebraska.
 

NWMetroGopherFan said:
The officials at the very least should've stopped to measure. A Fleck challenge would've been a high-risk, low reward gamble. It's never easy to overturn the spot of the ball and it has to be clear and indisputable visual evidence. That, and it was the first quarter.

Despite OSU scoring on the drive, the game didn't come down to this sequence.

It was a 6-point game in the fourth quarter with a Tyler Johnson 2nd quarter fumble as we were driving down the field at will (a score there makes it 21-10), 2 missed FGs, a Bateman ankle tackle that otherwise could've gone for a TD and 1 or 2 Ibrahim ankle tackles on runs that could've gone for a TD. There were multiple chances to win the game other than OSU going for it on a 4th down.

Onto Nebraska.
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Yeah, time to let this one go. It was a big play but a lot are acting like that was the only thing that kept us from winning the game and it was all part of some grand conspiracy to get OSU the win. Nevermind that we turned the ball over 3 times to their 0 or the things you mentioned above.

As many have mentioned, spots are really hard to overturn and even if they had moved it back some there is no guarantee that he still would not have gotten the first down. You also need to keep in mind that the perspective from the TV cameras makes it really hard to judge a spot because unless the camera is straight on the line it can be tough to tell exactly where the ball was. Again not saying the ref didn't make a mistake but it might not be as cut and dried as some think based on the freeze frames they took from the broadcast.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
I just looked at a replay and you can see the 1st down marker at the bottom of the screen. Although not official (Official chains on other side of field), the runner gained that mark by a yard. The red line on the screen was an additional yard beyond that spot. So something was off. Watching the game, I felt that even review and a re-spot would have resulted in a 1st down. The official is trained to move to the 1st down at the snap for best view. Once play is done he moves to his right meaning the ball was beyond the 1st down.

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The marker at the bottom looks like where the line of scrimmage was before the snap to me.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Yeah, time to let this one go. It was a big play but a lot are acting like that was the only thing that kept us from winning the game and it was all part of some grand conspiracy to get OSU the win. Nevermind that we turned the ball over 3 times to their 0 or the things you mentioned above.

As many have mentioned, spots are really hard to overturn and even if they had moved it back some there is no guarantee that he still would not have gotten the first down. You also need to keep in mind that the perspective from the TV cameras makes it really hard to judge a spot because unless the camera is straight on the line it can be tough to tell exactly where the ball was. Again not saying the ref didn't make a mistake but it might not be as cut and dried as some think based on the freeze frames they took from the broadcast.
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My problem with it is that the whole point of having replay is supposedly to get calls like this right. Last time we were at OSU something similar happened. Replay shows Leidner getting hit in the head and yet replay crew inexplicably reversed targeting call (allowing INT TD to stand).

Just drop replay and I can live with the on field officials making mistakes.
 


There’s really nothing to debate. Collegiate sports are corrupt. If you’re not a school that has a shot at the playoffs or ncaa tourney, you’re going to get hosed time and time again. It’s all about revenue and money. When an official states that he’s not even going to think about reviewing the call there some sort of agenda.
 

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