Ben Johnson Reasonable Expectations

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cjbfbp said:
Who said that?
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Scalia, the 5-foot-10 guard from Stillwater who led the team with 17.9 points per game this season, has entered her name into the NCAA transfer portal. Her father told the Star Tribune that Scalia has a good relationship with Whalen, but is seeking an opportunity to win at a higher level.
 


salzie said:
Sure, but I'm done after this

So GF is talking about offensive rebounding and gophers using strategy to get back on defense instead of crashing boards. They're not only team to do this


You reshape the argument a bit here, back to rebounding, instead of sticking to offensive rebounding. I'll give you minor credit, context stays offensive rebounding. You then ask about year 2 strategy

GF responds again, talking about the defensive principals Gophers used this year, and as he's not on coaching staff, he's not sure how they'll adapt to next year.



You seem shocked a poster isn't sure what coaching staff. You also suggest if strategy remains, recruiting is a failure. You're using either or logical fallacy here. No one is arguing strategy was ONLY reason for rebounding woes. But you're twisting the argument to suggest GF is saying strategy was the ONLY factor. It was one factor on offensive rebounding. You then proclaim, as if you're the expert of basketball scheme and knowledge, the strategy can't continue, because if strategy continues, we'll be last in offensive rebounding again. There is however room in the middle, a middle you refuse to acknowledge as is common with either or logic fallacy you're employing.



I stupidly jump into this pointless debate at this point. I point out I suspect they'll continue to prioritize getting back on defense over offensive rebounds.

Here you shift the argument and ignore offensive rebounding and strategy previously being talked about and just go to total rebounds and being out rebounded and continue your either or logical fallacy, if you like the strategy you like being outrebounded, again, you ASSume there is no inbetween, turning nuanced discussion into black and white issue.

I agreed they need to rebound better, never argued otherwise, but facts be damned to you

You refer to discussion of basketball strategy as "excuses". Again, it's an either or proposition to you. Change strategy and win or lose. Which is bullshit, wisconsin wins consistently and they prioritize getting back on defense over offensive rebounds. Iowa prefers to crash boards and in turn sacrifices on defensive end. There is also room in the middle. I would expect MN to follow WI model from what I've seen after year 1, just my thoughts.

Here another poster points out personnel dictated strategy and we would've altered it if we had the right people



Correct, neither played. And we're suspecting strategy changed as a result. You make a stupid needless post here

Here you call out poster for not using logic completely oblivous to the logical fallacies you use over and over

The original argument was on offensive rebounding. You responded to post on rebounding % and total rebounds, and tied prior argument to it. No one said the gophers strategy was to be last in rebounds or that they didn't need to rebound better, they pointed out on offensive side of the equation, they limited their chances at offensive rebounding by getting back to avoid transition buckets. You've turned it posters saying they're not trying to rebound and will always be last.


I disagree to an extent, but I wasn't planning on getting back. But I also don't think Dakota followed argument to it's start. I don't expect the strategy to be identical to last year, all coaches adapt, update, etc. Better players, healthy fox, payne, should give us different options



I do think we'll prioritize getting back on defense, like Wisconsin, over offensive rebounding. I also expect we'll be a better rebounding team, on both sides. I just think the overall strategy of what they priortizes remains, I point I've already made, but you disregarded


Here you are just being an ass. No surprise, it's what you do. You changed the argument to fit your needs and ignore context or dismiss it as making excuses.

here you are where it's an either or proposition again

I could link through several arguments and find you using variety of logical fallacies while attacking others for not using logic. It's hysterical

You also ignore possibility that Gophers can still prioritize getting on defense and improve on rebounding. In your mind, they can only improve rebounding by changing strategy (posts linked above of you saying they need to change strategy). Again, no room for nuances with you, it's an either or situation, black and white.

So two posters largely, pointed out that Ben and (most likely) Thorson put up a strategy on defense to limit transition buckets by getting back. Bo Ryan did this, Greg Gard does this. We think that most likely the "core" philosphy will remain. I do think we'll tweak it as having better personnel should allow us too. I don't expect a drastic 180 and we start playing like Iowa. I believe Ben/Thorson want a slower muck it up paced game like Wisconsin. I can't for sure say what they'll do, they don't consult me.

And with that, I'm done

I'm still disappointed you haven't answered my question if you just enjoy arguing on message board or if you're just an ass in general
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Whos your publisher?
 

leib0039 said:
Scalia, the 5-foot-10 guard from Stillwater who led the team with 17.9 points per game this season, has entered her name into the NCAA transfer portal. Her father told the Star Tribune that Scalia has a good relationship with Whalen, but is seeking an opportunity to win at a higher level.
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Thanks. I thought you were talking about men's basketball.
 

leib0039 said:
This is why "wasting" a year building a culture can be dangerous. I understand we were unlikely to win last year and it's 1 year, but look no further than the women's team. We lose players every year and this year our best player explicitly said its because they weren't winning enough. Build culture, build relationships etc but at the end of the day, it's still Ws vs Ls that matter
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In the world of auto racing, it's OK to let up off of the accelerator a bit to find a better line. Johnson wasn't trying to waste a year to build culture. Good players with good character were not interested in what he was selling. He just wasn't willing to take any risky players in the portal just because they might be there. Why tie up scholarships with players who he didn't think were the right fit?

You forget that Johnson and his squad were trying to win last year. Remember the 11-1 start. They just didn't have the horses to do it in conference due to skill, position, and no bench. One of the reasons for not having the horses was because they did not take on questionable characters. If you are going to lose with bad players, you might as well lose with bad quality-character players.

This was Johnson's strategy and it led to fewer wins in the conference than he might have otherwise gotten. Our only hope is that future athletes and their parents buy in to what he is selling.
 
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MS. Scalia made a very important statement regarding winning, and winning "big". In a couple of different ways.

Her statement surely doesn't fit the narrative here.
 

ecoperson said:
In the world of auto racing, it's OK to let up off of the accelerator a bit to find a better line. Johnson wasn't trying to waste a year to build culture. Good players with good character were not interested in what he was selling. He just wasn't willing to take any risky players in the portal just because they might be there. Why tie up scholarships with players who he didn't think were the right fit?

You forget that Johnson and his squad were trying to win last year. Remember the 11-1 start. They just didn't have the horses to do it in conference due to skill, position, and no bench. One of the reasons for not having the horses was because they did not take on questionable characters. If you are going to lose with bad players, you might as well lose with bad quality-character players.

This was Johnson's strategy and it led to fewer wins in the conference than he might have otherwise gotten. Our only hope is that future athletes and their parents buy in to what he is selling.
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Again, I get the concept, I know what he was doing. My point being if those compound each other it can sometimes dig you a hole so deep you cant get out of. I know the ISU comp is overused here, but Otz goes in and tells a Jones type guy, hey they finished 14th in the conference last year, we went to the s16 so....

There are other factors obviously, and I understand this isnt a 1 year turn around project, but for those who think being say 14th 12th 13th 10th in conference is progression, I do not see it that way and I doubt most kids do either.
 

ecoperson said:
In the world of auto racing, it's OK to let up off of the accelerator a bit to find a better line. Johnson wasn't trying to waste a year to build culture. Good players with good character were not interested in what he was selling. He just wasn't willing to take any risky players in the portal just because they might be there. Why tie up scholarships with players who he didn't think were the right fit?

You forget that Johnson and his squad were trying to win last year. Remember the 11-1 start. They just didn't have the horses to do it in conference due to skill, position, and no bench. One of the reasons for not having the horses was because they did not take on questionable characters. If you are going to lose with bad players, you might as well lose with bad quality-character players.

This was Johnson's strategy and it led to fewer wins in the conference than he might have otherwise gotten. Our only hope is that future athletes and their parents buy in to what he is selling.
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You can explain this until the cows come home and many will not be able to see around the record. I will tell you who do though: Coaches, players, and parents. They see a team culture on visits. Now if the record persists, well then of course it hurts, but building the foundation this year was more important than wins or losses. There is reason places like Purdue and Wisconsin win yearly no matter how many guys they lose. Freshman come in and held to the culture of the program.
 

leib0039 said:
There are other factors obviously, and I understand this isnt a 1 year turn around project, but for those who think being say 14th 12th 13th 10th in conference is progression, I do not see it that way and I doubt most kids do either.
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Who honestly thinks that's an acceptable start or progression?
 



leib0039 said:
Scalia, the 5-foot-10 guard from Stillwater who led the team with 17.9 points per game this season, has entered her name into the NCAA transfer portal. Her father told the Star Tribune that Scalia has a good relationship with Whalen, but is seeking an opportunity to win at a higher level.
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She left the womens program that is full of toxicity cause Whalen didn't do the due diligence in building a foundation. I don't think it's the right comp for Ben and Co yet. Nobody has left Ben yet honestly. The existing players that were here before left, but that was a loss in recruiting imo. They didn't accept an offer, live and breathe the program and then choose it's not for them. They saw their options and left.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
You can explain this until the cows come home and many will not be able to see around the record. I will tell you who do though: Coaches, players, and parents. They see a team culture on visits. Now if the record persists, well then of course it hurts, but building the foundation this year was more important than wins or losses. There is reason places like Purdue and Wisconsin win yearly no matter how many guys they lose. Freshman come in and held to the culture of the program.
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+1000 - very well said.
 

You can listen to "winning matters" until the cows come home and it still falls on deaf ears.
 

Dakota2 said:
You may be right that the core philosophy won't change 180. But if you have the talent it is pretty hard to not get a few more extra possessions a game if you can. I see Fox, Ihnen, and Payne fighting for offensive rebounds, while the others are falling back.
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I agree that it will be Fox, Payne, and Ihnen fighting for boards mainly, along with someone from the portal we hope. I'd also say that that is a very good rebounding trio. I've seen Payne enough times live to know he can board, Ihnen rebounded well for his time played (and has a 7-4 wingspan), and Fox is a great athlete with an impressive vertical who averaged 10 boards at Northern (Yeah, it's Northern, I know). But these are 3 guys who can get some boards, I would be surprised if there isn't a more "standard approach" to offensive rebounding next year with Johnson.
 



Formerswish said:
I agree that it will be Fox, Payne, and Ihnen fighting for boards mainly, along with someone from the portal we hope. I'd also say that that is a very good rebounding trio. I've seen Payne enough times live to know he can board, Ihnen rebounded well for his time played (and has a 7-4 wingspan), and Fox is a great athlete with an impressive vertical who averaged 10 boards at Northern (Yeah, it's Northern, I know). But these are 3 guys who can get some boards, I would be surprised if there isn't a more "standard approach" to offensive rebounding next year with Johnson.
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Nothin' but net.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
You can explain this until the cows come home and many will not be able to see around the record. I will tell you who do though: Coaches, players, and parents. They see a team culture on visits. Now if the record persists, well then of course it hurts, but building the foundation this year was more important than wins or losses. There is reason places like Purdue and Wisconsin win yearly no matter how many guys they lose. Freshman come in and held to the culture of the program.
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You’re dreaming if you think that the mens season mirrored the womens.
 

BarnBurner said:
You can listen to "winning matters" until the cows come home and it still falls on deaf ears.
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Are you purposefully being obtuse and negative with every post? Are you seriously thinking that people don't think winning matters? Winning matters LONG TERM. Do you seriously not get the concept of focusing on building a solid foundation before building the structure? A house without a solid foundation will fall.

As we have seen with Pitino, a program without a solid foundation will not win. If you want to win, sometimes you have to do a little work that DOESN'T make an immediate impact in the wins column. Taking shortcuts may lead to more wins in any given year but is not the way to build a program.
 


Gopherfan84 said:
You can explain this until the cows come home and many will not be able to see around the record. I will tell you who do though: Coaches, players, and parents. They see a team culture on visits. Now if the record persists, well then of course it hurts, but building the foundation this year was more important than wins or losses. There is reason places like Purdue and Wisconsin win yearly no matter how many guys they lose. Freshman come in and held to the culture of the program.
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Every coach on the planet in college athletics talks about culture. The W-L record is one thing, the progress and development of the players on the court through the course of the season is another; the Gophers kinda swung and missed on both of those this season. The team didn't get better as the year went on.

It's way, way, way too early to say this isn't going to work and this was a "bad hire", but if you don't think it's reasonable to at least have SOME concerns after the body of work up to this point, you probably never will.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Every coach on the planet in college athletics talks about culture. The W-L record is one thing, the progress and development of the players on the court through the course of the season is another; the Gophers kinda swung and missed on both of those this season. The team didn't get better as the year went on.

It's way, way, way too early to say this isn't going to work and this was a "bad hire", but if you don't think it's reasonable to at least have SOME concerns after the body of work up to this point, you probably never will.
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I had concerns the day he was hired. I just understand and watch how programs are built. Bens the first one to try and do it here in awhile without taking shortcuts. It may not work, but at least he’s attempting to do it right. Never said it was unreasonable to have some concerns, just some of the concerns here are very shortsighted imo.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
You can explain this until the cows come home and many will not be able to see around the record. I will tell you who do though: Coaches, players, and parents. They see a team culture on visits. Now if the record persists, well then of course it hurts, but building the foundation this year was more important than wins or losses. There is reason places like Purdue and Wisconsin win yearly no matter how many guys they lose. Freshman come in and held to the culture of the program.
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So what "culture" did Musselman bring to Nevada and Arkansas? Or did he just have better players than previous coaches? How about Boeheim, did his culture change from 2003 winning the title now to being very average? Do you think Gards "culture" works as well without a top 10 pick at pg this year? I bet Purdue loves culture when it has a top 4 pick and 3-4 nba players. Virginia is the hot "culture" team, they weren't very good last few years, funny how that changes when you don't have multiple nba guys on the floor.

My point is this, culture is tossed around a lot, fact is you need players. Sure it's beneficial if they are good people who buy in, but at the end of the day talent wins. I love PJ, but his culture gets the hype when in fact we just have more talent. Im positive Tanner Morgan is a better human than Deshaun Watson, but Watson won a national title, Morgan isn't. I think a lot of people here look at college sports and kids like they do their life, you'd like to work in a good place with good people. That's not probably the case most times with recruits, it certainly can be no doubt but it's not a top a lot of priority lists. I'm sure some will take offense to this (it's not an attack on Ben, relax) I just think most people on this board are a bit out of touch with how most 18-21 year old star athletes think and what they look for in a school. I'd hazard a guess if they were being honest it would be money, winning, ability to go pro as the top 3 motivators for most top end kids.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Every coach on the planet in college athletics talks about culture. The W-L record is one thing, the progress and development of the players on the court through the course of the season is another; the Gophers kinda swung and missed on both of those this season. The team didn't get better as the year went on.

It's way, way, way too early to say this isn't going to work and this was a "bad hire", but if you don't think it's reasonable to at least have SOME concerns after the body of work up to this point, you probably never will.
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Did the team not get better or did they just play tougher teams in conference than in preseason so their improvement was masked? Or did they get hit by the injury bug mid season or did the lack of bench catch up to them? There are many possible explanations for the perceived lack of improvement over the season.

I think we all need to throw last year out the window at this point as it is a sample size of 1 and in a really weird year. There is little sense in analyzing this year as the team was thrown together hurriedly from the portal of mostly student athletes in their final year of eligibility who were not heavily recruited.

Let's give a few months to see what the composition of the team is in the 22-23 season and then we can see if 21-22 was an anomaly or a pattern.
 

leib0039 said:
So what "culture" did Musselman bring to Nevada and Arkansas? Or did he just have better players than previous coaches? How about Boeheim, did his culture change from 2003 winning the title now to being very average? Do you think Gards "culture" works as well without a top 10 pick at pg this year? I bet Purdue loves culture when it has a top 4 pick and 3-4 nba players. Virginia is the hot "culture" team, they weren't very good last few years, funny how that changes when you don't have multiple nba guys on the floor.

My point is this, culture is tossed around a lot, fact is you need players. Sure it's beneficial if they are good people who buy in, but at the end of the day talent wins. I love PJ, but his culture gets the hype when in fact we just have more talent. Im positive Tanner Morgan is a better human than Deshaun Watson, but Watson won a national title, Morgan isn't. I think a lot of people here look at college sports and kids like they do their life, you'd like to work in a good place with good people. That's not probably the case most times with recruits, it certainly can be no doubt but it's not a top a lot of priority lists. I'm sure some will take offense to this (it's not an attack on Ben, relax) I just think most people on this board are a bit out of touch with how most 18-21 year old star athletes think and what they look for in a school. I'd hazard a guess if they were being honest it would be money, winning, ability to go pro as the top 3 motivators for most top end kids.
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Culture yields long term stability over a short term flash in the pan. We would all do backflips if Ben had the success of a Boeheim at Syracuse or a Gard at WI! Culture allows a team to weather the storm more effectively. Theoretically the highs will be a little higher and the lows will be a lot higher.
 

leib0039 said:
So what "culture" did Musselman bring to Nevada and Arkansas? Or did he just have better players than previous coaches? How about Boeheim, did his culture change from 2003 winning the title now to being very average? Do you think Gards "culture" works as well without a top 10 pick at pg this year? I bet Purdue loves culture when it has a top 4 pick and 3-4 nba players. Virginia is the hot "culture" team, they weren't very good last few years, funny how that changes when you don't have multiple nba guys on the floor.

My point is this, culture is tossed around a lot, fact is you need players. Sure it's beneficial if they are good people who buy in, but at the end of the day talent wins. I love PJ, but his culture gets the hype when in fact we just have more talent. Im positive Tanner Morgan is a better human than Deshaun Watson, but Watson won a national title, Morgan isn't. I think a lot of people here look at college sports and kids like they do their life, you'd like to work in a good place with good people. That's not probably the case most times with recruits, it certainly can be no doubt but it's not a top a lot of priority lists. I'm sure some will take offense to this (it's not an attack on Ben, relax) I just think most people on this board are a bit out of touch with how most 18-21 year old star athletes think and what they look for in a school. I'd hazard a guess if they were being honest it would be money, winning, ability to go pro as the top 3 motivators for most top end kids.
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If you’d like me to go through those coaches you all named I can, but I don’t feel like writing anything that long. Muss is an absolute clown, but his programs have expectations of playing hard. He’s also good with using the underdog card. It will be interesting to see how it goes for him with 5 stars. Muss also doesn’t stay places long either, so we will see.

I don’t know what to tell ya. I’ve coached for 15 years, I’ve studied programs for my own enjoyment. The reason all coaches say it and strive for creating the right culture is cause it matters. Of course players matter too, but it’s not that overly complicated to understand they play and weave together. Good players want to go to a place with a good culture. Look at the women’s team if you want an example of why culture matters
 

Gopherfan84 said:
If you’d like me to go through those coaches you all named I can, but I don’t feel like writing anything that long. Muss is an absolute clown, but his programs have expectations of playing hard. He’s also good with using the underdog card. It will be interesting to see how it goes for him with 5 stars. Muss also doesn’t stay places long either, so we will see.

I don’t know what to tell ya. I’ve coached for 15 years, I’ve studied programs for my own enjoyment. The reason all coaches say it and strive for creating the right culture is cause it matters. Of course players matter too, but it’s not that overly complicated to understand they play and weave together. Good players want to go to a place with a good culture. Look at the women’s team if you want an example of why culture matters
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And I get the general idea, but what is a coach going to say? Ohh yah we don't care if they try hard, who cares if they don't practice, never show up? Good here just so long as they play in the game! It's just a cliché. Again I hope we get there, but if it's takes as you call him, a clown, I'm just fine with that. Give me all the clowns if we go to the elite 8 every year.
 

leib0039 said:
And I get the general idea, but what is a coach going to say? Ohh yah we don't care if they try hard, who cares if they don't practice, never show up? Good here just so long as they play in the game! It's just a cliché. Again I hope we get there, but if it's takes as you call him, a clown, I'm just fine with that. Give me all the clowns if we go to the elite 8 every year.
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The fact you find it to be just a cliche means you don’t get it in my opinion and that’s ok. You can be a good teacher, but if your kids are ineligible it don’t matter. You can be a good teacher, but if your kids don’t work together as a unit, it doesn’t matter. You can be a good teacher, but if your players think there are no accountability, it doesn’t matter. All of this is culture. It’s hard to suspend or bench your best player if they don’t give maximum effort. Ben did that this year the little he could with Battle and Willis. Also if you think Jerry Kill or PJ were tactically better than Brewster then I hate to break it to you but they weren’t. Our former basketball coach is actually very very intelligent schematically and about the game. He’s absolutely awful getting kids to play hard for him and putting a roster together. He took shortcuts and tried to just get the “most talented” he could find. It didn’t work for a reason and that is the culture. If you don’t already, I recommend reading books written by coaches or listen to podcasts with them. Not the little tidbits or interviews with the local papers.

Musselmans clown show is how he plays the media and to get fanboys. He’s different in the background. He’s very intelligent, calculated, and tactical and knows how to teach basketball. All of this wouldn’t matter however if he didn’t get kids (many of whom didn’t work out at other places before they got to him) because he’s structured and gets guys on the same page. Muss also pushes boundaries and his dad was a cheater and it wouldn’t fly here. Take that for what you want and you can blame the U or whomever.
 

ecoperson said:
Are you purposefully being obtuse and negative with every post? Are you seriously thinking that people don't think winning matters? Winning matters LONG TERM. Do you seriously not get the concept of focusing on building a solid foundation before building the structure? A house without a solid foundation will fall.

As we have seen with Pitino, a program without a solid foundation will not win. If you want to win, sometimes you have to do a little work that DOESN'T make an immediate impact in the wins column. Taking shortcuts may lead to more wins in any given year but is not the way to build a program.
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It seems you are quite negative, as your posts are filled with negativity toward others.

Perhaps you need to read and reread what ms Scalia said. Spoke volumes about the subject at hand.
 

leib0039 said:
So what "culture" did Musselman bring to Nevada and Arkansas? Or did he just have better players than previous coaches? How about Boeheim, did his culture change from 2003 winning the title now to being very average? Do you think Gards "culture" works as well without a top 10 pick at pg this year? I bet Purdue loves culture when it has a top 4 pick and 3-4 nba players. Virginia is the hot "culture" team, they weren't very good last few years, funny how that changes when you don't have multiple nba guys on the floor.

My point is this, culture is tossed around a lot, fact is you need players. Sure it's beneficial if they are good people who buy in, but at the end of the day talent wins. I love PJ, but his culture gets the hype when in fact we just have more talent. Im positive Tanner Morgan is a better human than Deshaun Watson, but Watson won a national title, Morgan isn't. I think a lot of people here look at college sports and kids like they do their life, you'd like to work in a good place with good people. That's not probably the case most times with recruits, it certainly can be no doubt but it's not a top a lot of priority lists. I'm sure some will take offense to this (it's not an attack on Ben, relax) I just think most people on this board are a bit out of touch with how most 18-21 year old star athletes think and what they look for in a school. I'd hazard a guess if they were being honest it would be money, winning, ability to go pro as the top 3 motivators for most top end kids.
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UVA JUST WON THE ACC LAST YEAR ! A culture that Ben believes in allows for tough seasons. He will not out recruit elite programs so you have to do it another way. High character, better scouting, better development. UVA identified those nba guys way before they were ranked that high. None were 5 star NBA guys. Actually when offered they were 2 and 3 star. They bought into a system that had already won ACC titles and developed other long shot NBA guys, guys that got their masters, guys that believed in academics, believed in team, believed in team. Everyone knows that you have a better chance with better players but if you can can not select them then you build a solid foundation first on principle. Incrementally you get better talent.We tried cutting corners, we tried for flashy recruits over substance. We had lousy coaching, loose standards, clown shows for practice. No one knows if Ben can do what Bennett and Ryan or Keady and Painter have done but we know that cheating did not work, being lazy did not work. At least Ben will be authentic, honest and hard working. That has great appeal to many.
 

Muss did a great job of getting better players and teaching really well. Minnesota did not hire him and we could discuss forever if they could have. He can get kids into Nevada and Arkansas that can not get into Minnesota. UVA faces this issue even more to the extreme but the culture and fit with Bennett are perfect. That is why they offer such a small number of people, spend so much time knowing families and players. Again, this is similar to how this staff wants to do it. It will take time. What do we have to lose. It was already mediocre. Even when winning we had to vacate !
 


Well agree to disagree, which is totally fine. I worry about a culture where 30 games in either the coach has 0 faith in 1 guy on his bench or the players have none saying thanks but no thanks to playing in a tournament game.

Again, I absolutely hope I'm dead wrong. I hope ben is the man to build this fabled culture and I eat more crow every year when we are consistently a good to great program. I just want to win!
 

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