Ben Johnson is a Disaster

[scools12]

First 2 years and he wasn’t left crap for players. In Fleckspeak this would be year zero.

This is now Ben Johnson’s third year zero.

You can’t make it up.

 

[Gophers_4life]

If they're going to write that article, they're going to write no matter when you fire him. Pitino got 8 etc. It doesn't matter. We're being picked to finish dead last for the 3rd straight year. If we do, he's fired. Most likely no one will even care enough to bother with fake outrage. Gopher basketball has fallen totally off the map in Minnesota sports.

Agree. They'll write that article for those who want to read it, no matter when he was fired. "Wasn't given a fair chance to succeed, blah blah blah". It's probably already written, just need a few details inserted.

 

[SoMpls]

Excuses already

NW wins without even having a NIL collective setup.

You snowflakes really stick together don’t you smh. Collins has been terrible for years and now you praise him for being average. Unbelievable!

 

[WoodburyTim]

MSU is an established Blue Blood. We are a team that is digging out of a big hole. Terrible comparison and really bad strategy.

By year 11, we might be sneaking up some folks.

 

[WoodburyTim]

There was a Rockraven that used to be over on GI years ago. He would post bizarre nonsensical stuff. Gotta be the same guy.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

By year 11, we might be sneaking up some folks.

It's only fair, Lindsay Whalen got 5 seasons so if CBJ doesn't get at least 5 seasons, starting when we choose to start counting, then regardless of Whalen winning twice as many games as Ben, he didn't get a fair shake.

Also, we owe Ben NIL money. If he fails, it's your fault for not choosing Gopher basketball as your family's go-to charity.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

You snowflakes really stick together don’t you smh. Collins has been terrible for years and now you praise him for being average. Unbelievable!

I can't even imagine how excited I would be for average right now.

Collins won twice as many B1G games as Ben in his first two seasons. Ben has finished last twice in 2 seasons, while Collins has done it once over 10 seasons. Even Collins worst back to back seasons were still 1 B1G game better than Ben's first two seasons. Plus Collins has to recruit with academic standards significantly higher than Minnesota.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

You snowflakes really stick together don’t you smh. Collins has been terrible for years and now you praise him for being average. Unbelievable!

Ben Johnson would have to win 14 games in the Big 10 next season to be as good as Collins through 3 seasons. If Collins was terrible, WTF does that make Ben Johnson?

 

[Big Dawg]

Ben Johnson would have to win 14 games in the Big 10 next season to be as good as Collins through 3 seasons. If Collins was terrible, WTF does that make Ben Johnson?

Terribleeeeeerrrrr?, More terrible?, The terriblist? Mega terrible?

I hope that he somehow becomes awesome and we make the madness this coming season but I highly doubt it.

 

[atsgopher]

Ben Johnson would have to win 14 games in the Big 10 next season to be as good as Collins through 3 seasons. If Collins was terrible, WTF does that make Ben Johnson?

Under the hypothetical it would make him a legend.

We’d only talk about the absolute condition. We’d all laugh at how dumb some of us were.

And everyone who hated the hire, would wonder how anyone could have ever not supported him.

 

[The SF Rock]

There was a Rockraven that used to be over on GI years ago. He would post bizarre nonsensical stuff. Gotta be the same guy.

I remember your name but nothing notable about you otherwise.

 

[The SF Rock]

Ben Johnson would have to win 14 games in the Big 10 next season to be as good as Collins through 3 seasons. If Collins was terrible, WTF does that make Ben Johnson?

It makes him a diversity hire.

 

[jamiche]

As bad as Whalen was, she was way better than Ben Johnson. It's not even close.

I have no idea if this is your motive, but everyone else who has made the Whalen comparison seems to be trying to back door into the idea that if Ben doesn't get 5 seasons, we have somehow treated him unfairly compared to Whalen.

We haven't. Ben Johnson's teams have been way worse than Whalen's and if he saves his job by finishing 13th in the Big 10 and going 5-15, it's a travesty.

You didn't read my post. I never said Johnson deserved five years. I said if he shows some improvement Coyle will give him a fourth year.

Of course there's a revenue differential. That's why Johnson isn't making it to year five without a big jump. He will make it to year four with modest improvement.

Yup. Whalen's flat line record of submediocrity and program turmoil was better. She came in without NIL competition. Johnson has been recruiting with one hand tied behind his back. He operates in a cold climate, with a crappy arena and with pennies in NIL money. To pretend that NIL isn't a game changer makes you far less savvy than a 17 year old who can dunk a basketball.

If and when more NIL money starts flowing, better players will arrive. It won't be a coincidence.

Finally, people say look at Fleck. He's an amazing salesman. Amazing. (And a good guy from what I've heard.) He's elevated the program to about .500 in the B1G. They get to about nine wins a year because they win their preseason games and a second tier bowl game. He's done it on three star recruits. He can't and won't take the leap until they get more NIL money.

 

[GopherPlaya]

You didn't read my post. I never said Johnson deserved five years. I said if he shows some improvement Coyle will give him a fourth year.

Of course there's a revenue differential. That's why Johnson isn't making it to year five without a big jump. He will make it to year four with modest improvement.

Yup. Whalen's flat line record of submediocrity and program turmoil was better. She came in without NIL competition. Johnson has been recruiting with one hand tied behind his back. He operates in a cold climate, with a crappy arena and with pennies in NIL money. To pretend that NIL isn't a game changer makes you far less savvy than a 17 year old who can dunk a basketball.

If and when more NIL money starts flowing, better players will arrive. It won't be a coincidence.

Finally, people say look at Fleck. He's an amazing salesman. Amazing. (And a good guy from what I've heard.) He's elevated the program to about .500 in the B1G. They get to about nine wins a year because they win their preseason games and a second tier bowl game. He's done it on three star recruits. He can't and won't take the leap until they get more NIL money.

Fleck teams have wet the bed vs. Iowa. The Gophers would have played in 3 Big Ten championships if that didn't happen. They have been above .500 3 out of the last 4 years

2019 7-2
2020 3-4 COVID Year
2021 6-3
2022 5-4

I can't say NIL has limited our football program. Fleck has a system (Good or Bad), and it helps players teach and break down the system to their peers. That is what has caused Ben issues more than NIL. It's not like Ben's recruiting of High School talent has been bad. We have brought in the number 1 player in Illinois and Colorado, and Payne, Carrington, Henley, and JOJ were a good class. We don't have much to sell to portal kids because we aren't a winning program and won't help top portal kids raise their stock.

 

[The SF Rock]

Fleck teams have wet the bed vs. Iowa. The Gophers would have played in 3 Big Ten championships if that didn't happen. They have been above .500 3 out of the last 4 years

2019 7-2
2020 3-4 COVID Year
2021 6-3
2022 5-4

I can't say NIL has limited our football program. Fleck has a system (Good or Bad), and it helps players teach and break down the system to their peers. That is what has caused Ben issues more than NIL. It's not like Ben's recruiting of High School talent has been bad. We have brought in the number 1 player in Illinois and Colorado, and Payne, Carrington, Henley, and JOJ were a good class. We don't have much to sell to portal kids because we aren't a winning program and won't help top portal kids raise their stock.

Football has NIL. Mo got $500,000 last year. There is a OL HS kid with NIL before enrolling. I’m sure they are getting it going.

 

[GopherPlaya]

Football has NIL. Mo got $500,000 last year. There is a OL HS kid with NIL before enrolling. I’m sure they are getting it going.

Mo got it bc he was an high profile player. I doubt they are paying anything spectacular. NIL isn’t as prevalent across the board as people think

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

You didn't read my post. I never said Johnson deserved five years. I said if he shows some improvement Coyle will give him a fourth year.

Of course there's a revenue differential. That's why Johnson isn't making it to year five without a big jump. He will make it to year four with modest improvement.

Yup. Whalen's flat line record of submediocrity and program turmoil was better. She came in without NIL competition. Johnson has been recruiting with one hand tied behind his back. He operates in a cold climate, with a crappy arena and with pennies in NIL money. To pretend that NIL isn't a game changer makes you far less savvy than a 17 year old who can dunk a basketball.

If and when more NIL money starts flowing, better players will arrive. It won't be a coincidence.

Finally, people say look at Fleck. He's an amazing salesman. Amazing. (And a good guy from what I've heard.) He's elevated the program to about .500 in the B1G. They get to about nine wins a year because they win their preseason games and a second tier bowl game. He's done it on three star recruits. He can't and won't take the leap until they get more NIL money.

Just fold the program now then. What an out of touch with reality and excuse riddled post.

 

[WoodburyTim]

I remember your name but nothing notable about you otherwise.

People tend to remember certain types of posters.

 

[The SF Rock]

Just fold the program now then. What an out of touch with reality and excuse riddled post.

Glad you didn’t over-react again.

 

[jamiche]

Fleck teams have wet the bed vs. Iowa. The Gophers would have played in 3 Big Ten championships if that didn't happen. They have been above .500 3 out of the last 4 years

2019 7-2
2020 3-4 COVID Year
2021 6-3
2022 5-4

I can't say NIL has limited our football program. Fleck has a system (Good or Bad), and it helps players teach and break down the system to their peers. That is what has caused Ben issues more than NIL. It's not like Ben's recruiting of High School talent has been bad. We have brought in the number 1 player in Illinois and Colorado, and Payne, Carrington, Henley, and JOJ were a good class. We don't have much to sell to portal kids because we aren't a winning program and won't help top portal kids raise their stock.

Good points on FB. Fleck has had an excellent year, a very good year and two average years.

Regarding the portal, Ben can sell playing time.

How focused do you think the top HS players are on NIL? Am I wrong on that?

 

[Gophers_4life]

and now you praise him for being average.

22-12, 12-8 tied for 2nd in the conference is "average".

Let me know if you have anything honest to say

 

[Gophers_4life]

To pretend that NIL isn't a game changer

This is the laziest, weakest argument, and it's sad.

Sure, NIL matters .... for 4* and 5* recruits.

Doesn't matter for 3*, which is always what the U is going to largely be getting. Coach them, develop them, take a chance on some potential.

We're never going to be Ohio State in football, Kansas in basketball.

To pretend that we would be, if only we had more NIL .... well, that's just a bald faced lie.

 

[GopherPlaya]

Good points on FB. Fleck has had an excellent year, a very good year and two average years.

Regarding the portal, Ben can sell playing time.

How focused do you think the top HS players are on NIL? Am I wrong on that?

It depends on what you mean by top HS players. If you are talking 5 stars, that's different than a top 150 kid might get. So many teams are prioritizing the portal that NIL is less of an HS recruiting issue outside of the top 50-75 kids and even that number is probably larger than it is. As far as selling playing time to portal kids, the top portal kids will get playing time anyway. That alone isn't enough. It will work with low to low-mid major kids who may be looking for an opportunity to play at a higher level, but It won't work for the top guys in the portal.

 

[Gophers_4life]

We're not going to get "top guys", and that shouldn't be the focus.

We need a coach who knows how, and has done it, to be a developmental program, keep guys around playing together, play disciplined, play smart, play hard (defense).

 

[MRJ]

This is the laziest, weakest argument, and it's sad.

Sure, NIL matters .... for 4* and 5* recruits.

Doesn't matter for 3*, which is always what the U is going to largely be getting. Coach them, develop them, take a chance on some potential.

We're never going to be Ohio State in football, Kansas in basketball.

To pretend that we would be, if only we had more NIL .... well, that's just a bald faced lie.

Well said.

NIL is the ultimate crutch and excuse.

NIL dollars would come if the program was successful and was therefore attracting star caliber players. Instead, what the U has demonstrated in recent years is buffoonish leadership and bottom of the barrel results. Like, historically god awful results.

No top end talent is going to come here for NIL dollars or any other reason currently. It's been nothing less than a shitshow for two years and everyone outside our little maroon and gold bubble knows it. What Ben is fighting is the fact that he has two straight last place finishes on his resume and has shown little (if any) ability to be up to the job. It's really not that complicated.

At this point, there is very little to sell other than playing time. That's where it starts and ends.

 

[jamiche]

This is the laziest, weakest argument, and it's sad.

Sure, NIL matters .... for 4* and 5* recruits.

Doesn't matter for 3*, which is always what the U is going to largely be getting. Coach them, develop them, take a chance on some potential.

We're never going to be Ohio State in football, Kansas in basketball.

To pretend that we would be, if only we had more NIL .... well, that's just a bald faced lie.

Why do we have to settle for 3* recruits? What is intrinsically attractive about Kansas or Gonzaga? Both are in the middle of nowhere. Kansas has been getting 5* players forever and Gonzaga since Few came on board.

I can understand how and why San Diego St. is becoming a powerhouse. Who wouldn't want to go to school there. But Kansas? C'mon. They've been paying their players forever. Gonzaga? I don't know their secret sauce but they obviously have one.

The U coaches for decades have brought in 3* players. Fleck is the best FB coach they've had in forever. On the BB side it was Dutcher, Haskins and, maybe, Tubby. NIL has dramatically changed recruiting and I think the U was slow to recognize the opportunity (and the pitfalls).

 

[Gophers_4life]

Why do we have to settle for 3* recruits? What is intrinsically attractive about Kansas or Gonzaga? Both are in the middle of nowhere. Kansas has been getting 5* players forever and Gonzaga since Few came on board.

I can understand how and why San Diego St. is becoming a powerhouse. Who wouldn't want to go to school there. But Kansas? C'mon. They've been paying their players forever. Gonzaga? I don't know their secret sauce but they obviously have one.

The U coaches for decades have brought in 3* players. Fleck is the best FB coach they've had in forever. On the BB side it was Dutcher, Haskins and, maybe, Tubby. NIL has dramatically changed recruiting and I think the U was slow to recognize the opportunity (and the pitfalls).

You've answered your own question.

Coaching.

Fleck wins because of his ability to coach, and hire solid coordinators and position coaches, and the key thing: identity 3* and low 4* level players that actually want to come to Minnesota, have potential, are willing to be patient and be developed, fit the culture of the program, be part of the team.


I'm sure BJ wants to do the same and probably sold Coyle on this as well.

And has failed miserably so far. He never had a track record of doing it, so it isn't that surprising.


And not a lick of any of what I just aid above, has anything to do with major NIL money.

 

[The SF Rock]

Well said.

NIL is the ultimate crutch and excuse.

NIL dollars would come if the program was successful and was therefore attracting star caliber players. Instead, what the U has demonstrated in recent years is buffoonish leadership and bottom of the barrel results. Like, historically god awful results.

No top end talent is going to come here for NIL dollars or any other reason currently. It's been nothing less than a shitshow for two years and everyone outside our little maroon and gold bubble knows it. What Ben is fighting is the fact that he has two straight last place finishes on his resume and has shown little (if any) ability to be up to the job. It's really not that complicated.

At this point, there is very little to sell other than playing time. That's where it starts and ends.

NIL has to get a start and then grow for us. It is one of the few ways we don’t we don’t become a blueblood feeder school when we do improve. HS kids are getting NIL now and agents follow the money. Don’t forget Evans had an agent. They work for NIL $$$.

 

[jamiche]

You've answered your own question.

Coaching.

Fleck wins because of his ability to coach, and hire solid coordinators and position coaches, and the key thing: identity 3* and low 4* level players that actually want to come to Minnesota, have potential, are willing to be patient and be developed, fit the culture of the program, be part of the team.


I'm sure BJ wants to do the same and probably sold Coyle on this as well.

And has failed miserably so far. He never had a track record of doing it, so it isn't that surprising.


And not a lick of any of what I just aid above, has anything to do with major NIL money.

Of course Kansas and the other blue bloods have had good coaches. They've also been paying their players forever (and promising them NBA careers). Without the money, not nearly as many top players show up in a middle of nowhere place like Lawrence.

I do think Johnson can coach and recruit, although his record obviously doesn't show it. The reason I think he can coach is the game against tOSU that was broadcast on Fox1. The coaches were miked and there were no commercials. It was basically a live feed. I thought Johnson had good command of the huddle and the sideline. He was more assertive than he appears.

He can recruit because, as Gopher Playa said, he's recruited the top players in Illinois, Colorado and he brought in Henley and Evans. He lost Evans to a larger NIL offer. The portal is a problem.

This is a pivotal year. I think he has to get to about six wins and hold on to his players to keep his job. We'll see.

 

[A-Town Owl]

Of course Kansas and the other blue bloods have had good coaches. They've also been paying their players forever (and promising them NBA careers). Without the money, not nearly as many top players show up in a middle of nowhere place like Lawrence.

I do think Johnson can coach and recruit, although his record obviously doesn't show it. The reason I think he can coach is the game against tOSU that was broadcast on Fox1. The coaches were miked and there were no commercials. It was basically a live feed. I thought Johnson had good command of the huddle and the sideline. He was more assertive than he appears.

He can recruit because, as Gopher Playa said, he's recruited the top players in Illinois, Colorado and he brought in Henley and Evans. He lost Evans to a larger NIL offer. The portal is a problem.

This is a pivotal year. I think he has to get to about six wins and hold on to his players to keep his job. We'll see.

I basically agree with all this. I think they need to not play on Wednesday for Ben to keep his job. The win total is harder to project, but just don't finish in the bottom four.